CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[GodsGrace]

Not EVERY way.

The reformed movement is why we're not all Catholic and think that a person is credited God's righteousness (justified) in return for doing righteous things, but rather by having faith in the blood of Christ, all by itself. But don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of Reformed theology either, lol.

The reformation was unfortunately necessary.
But it brought with it many problems of a different type.

The problem lies with us.
Sinful beings that we are.
Power goes to the head, maybe even God can't stop it.

If God plans every little thing, as Piper states, then did God WANT His church to fail?
In Calvinist theology, there is no other excuse/reason. It failed because God predestinated it to.

So now here we are, each believing different doctrine, and Jesus said we should be one, of one mind.

So to a calvinist I would ask,,,,
Does God know what He's doing?

 

[Vinny37]

Think of water.
It can exist in three separate and distinct states, liquid, ice, and steam, and all at the same time.

Perhaps better to say that H2O is the common denominator, whether it is in the mode of ice, of water, or of steam. The term [mode] could sound Sabellian, and the picture is not perfect, but it’s rightly looks to the equilateral triangle picture, where each point (A/B/C) is meant to represent a distinct person (father/son/spirit), but each is deific (homoousious / same substance: Nicene Creed). I would add that Jesus is the permanent temporal mode of the uncreated eternal second person of deity; an outraying of God the son noncarnate.

 

[Free]

Perhaps better to say that H2O is the common denominator, whether it is in the mode of ice, of water, or of steam. The term [mode] could sound Sabellian, and the picture is not perfect, but it’s rightly looks to the equilateral triangle picture, where each point (A/B/C) is meant to represent a distinct person (father/son/spirit), but each is deific (homoousious / same substance: Nicene Creed). I would add that Jesus is the permanent temporal mode of the uncreated eternal second person of deity; an outraying of God the son noncarnate.

The triple point of water (or other substances) is where under a certain pressure and at a certain temperature, H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, and vapour. The substance, H20, is the same for each. So, each state is fully H20, yet remains distinct in form.

The egg analogy used by many is only modalistic, since the shell, yolk, and egg white are different substances that can be separated. Each is not fully an egg; it takes all three. Similarly, the role analogy (father, son, engineer) and person analogy (mind, body, spirit) suffer from the same issues.

Every analogy breaks down at some point, but the triple point of water is the closest analogy I have come across.

 

[GodsGrace]

The triple point of water (or other substances) is where under a certain pressure and at a certain temperature, H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, and vapour. The substance, H20, is the same for each. So, each state is fully H20, yet remains distinct in form.

The egg analogy used by many is only modalistic, since the shell, yolk, and egg white are different substances that can be separated. Each is not fully an egg; it takes all three. Similarly, the role analogy (father, son, engineer) and person analogy (mind, body, spirit) suffer from the same issues.

Every analogy breaks down at some point, but the triple point of water is the closest analogy I have come across.

Did you say that H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, gas?

It's not simultaneous.
If it's liquid it's not ice/solid...and so on.
But is it still H20?

 

[Free]

Did you say that H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, gas?

It's not simultaneous.
If it's liquid it's not ice/solid...and so on.
But is it still H20?

I said that it can exist simultaneously as ice, water, and gas given the right conditions. It will remain H20 in all those states.

The triple point of water (or other substances) is where under a certain pressure and at a certain temperature, H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, and vapour.

"The triple point occurs where the solid, liquid, and gas transition curves meet. The triple point is the only condition in which all three phases can coexist, and is unique for every material. Water reaches its triple point at just above freezing (0.1° C) and at a pressure of 0.006 atm."

https://ucscphysicsdemo.sites.ucsc.edu/physics-5b6b-demos/triple-point-of-water/

 

[GodsGrace]

I said that it can exist simultaneously as ice, water, and gas given the right conditions. It will remain H20 in all those states.

The triple point of water (or other substances) is where under a certain pressure and at a certain temperature, H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, and vapour.

"The triple point occurs where the solid, liquid, and gas transition curves meet. The triple point is the only condition in which all three phases can coexist, and is unique for every material. Water reaches its triple point at just above freezing (0.1° C) and at a pressure of 0.006 atm."

https://ucscphysicsdemo.sites.ucsc.edu/physics-5b6b-demos/triple-point-of-water/

Wow.
Ok.
Maybe it IS the best representation.
I never thought so due to the changes.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

I said that it can exist simultaneously as ice, water, and gas given the right conditions. It will remain H20 in all those states.

The triple point of water (or other substances) is where under a certain pressure and at a certain temperature, H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, and vapour.

"The triple point occurs where the solid, liquid, and gas transition curves meet. The triple point is the only condition in which all three phases can coexist, and is unique for every material. Water reaches its triple point at just above freezing (0.1° C) and at a pressure of 0.006 atm."

https://ucscphysicsdemo.sites.ucsc.edu/physics-5b6b-demos/triple-point-of-water/

Did you see that incredibly beautiful post of mine in the Lounge?
You'd like it.

 

[Free]

Wow.
Ok.
Maybe it IS the best representation.
I never thought so due to the changes.
Thanks.

It is the only analogy I use and I do so sparingly, since it, too, is not perfect. However, I have argued that since God created substances where under specific conditions they can simultaneously exist as solid, liquid, and gas and yet remain the same substance, then it shouldn't be inconceivable for him to exist as three coeternal, coequal persons, each being truly God, yet distinct. It is just infinitely more complex when the idea of persons is brought in.

Did you see that incredibly beautiful post of mine in the Lounge?
You'd like it.

No, I haven't. Which thread?

 

[rogerg]

It is very simplistic to take a verse which mentions one person, and imply therefore that no other need apply: the father, son, and spirit, are saviour (Athanasian Creed is imperfect but worth reading). If I say that the spirit is “the truth”, would you not be right to say that Jesus is “the truth”? And yet John in 1 Jhn.5:6, was as right as John in Jhn.14:6. When Mary rejoiced in God her saviour, she did not mean messiah. 1 Tm.1:1 (likewise Jude 25), even in the KJV, recognises God as our saviour, and puts Jesus Christ as our lord. In fact 1 Cor.8:6, on its own, might say that Jesus is not deity, and certainly that the father is not lord. Good theology must crunch the numbers; Sunday Schools (like pre-maths) can be simplistic and overlook biblical depth (1 Cor.13:11).

Sorry, still not sure of your bottom-line point. I definitely believe that Christ was/is fully man, fully God, and there is only one God (if that's what you're saying). With the verse stating, "Lord and SAVIOUR Jesus Christ", it is stating, in effect, that God was with us in Christ Jesus --so, when we say Christ, we also, at the same time, are saying God.
I think the part you have a problem with though is what is a Saviour. My belief is that by title, a Saviour is He who does, and who must do the saving, and all connected with/to it, otherwise, He couldn't be the Saviour - simple as that. So, if He is, then no one else can be. Regarding salvation, and beyond that truth, everything else in the Bible is documentary, informational, and supportive of it - Christ alone is the foundation and apex of the Bible.
To make it simple, do you believe Christ is the Saviour or not? If not, who then who do you think is?
And if you don't think so, then it will probably not be possible for us to communicate since we begin with/from different foundations.

[Mat 1:23 KJV] 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[Mar 12:29 KJV] 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

 

[GodsGrace]

It is the only analogy I use and I do so sparingly, since it, too, is not perfect. However, I have argued that since God created substances where under specific conditions they can simultaneously exist as solid, liquid, and gas and yet remain the same substance, then it shouldn't be inconceivable for him to exist as three coeternal, coequal persons, each being truly God, yet distinct. It is just infinitely more complex when the idea of persons is brought in.


No, I haven't. Which thread?

On phone. Don't know how to copy, paste.

Lounge
Incredibly Beautiful
By me

 

[Free]

On phone. Don't know how to copy, paste.

Lounge
Incredibly Beautiful
By me

Oh, the title is Incredibly Beautiful. I thought you were describing a post you made as being incredibly beautiful. Ha ha!

I will watch the video when I get a chance.

 

[Niblo]

Oh, the title is Incredibly Beautiful. I thought you were describing a post you made as being incredibly beautiful. Ha ha!

I will watch the video when I get a chance.

So did I. .

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, still not sure of your bottom-line point. I definitely believe that Christ was/is fully man, fully God, and there is only one God (if that's what you're saying). With the verse stating, "Lord and SAVIOUR Jesus Christ", it is stating, in effect, that God was with us in Christ Jesus --so, when we say Christ, we also, at the same time, are saying God.
I think the part you have a problem with though is what is a Saviour. My belief is that by title, a Saviour is He who does, and who must do the saving, and all connected with/to it, otherwise, He couldn't be the Saviour - simple as that. So, if He is, then no one else can be. Regarding salvation, and beyond that truth, everything else in the Bible is documentary, informational, and supportive of it - Christ alone is the foundation and apex of the Bible.
To make it simple, do you believe Christ is the Saviour or not? If not, who then who do you think is?
And if you don't think so, then it will probably not be possible for us to communicate since we begin with/from different foundations.

[Mat 1:23 KJV] 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[Mar 12:29 KJV] 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Any thoughts on post 1061?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perhaps better to say that H2O is the common denominator, whether it is in the mode of ice, of water, or of steam.

And that's the point, exactly.

All are the one 'water', yet exist in different forms at the same time.
Just as in the Trinity all are the One God, yet exist in different forms at the same time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If God plans every little thing, as Piper states, then did God WANT His church to fail?
In Calvinist theology, there is no other excuse/reason. It failed because God predestinated it to.

God knew it would fail and not remain as pure and effective as it started out.
That's how I look at it.

I have thought a lot about 'church' and concluded the idea presented to us in the earliest days of Acts and the days of the ministry of the Apostles would not and could not last. It was doomed from the beginning (Acts 20:29-30). Not because God's plan for 'church' was somehow flawed but because man is horribly flawed. But God's backup plan is alive and well and will remain to the very end: Me, the Holy Spirit, and the written word, and likeminded fellowship and discussion with other believers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If God plans every little thing, as Piper states

Not a big fan of Piper, lol. But, Jesus did say even a sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from the will of God. Does he purposely make it fall to the ground? Or does he purposely allow it to fall to the ground? Depends on the circumstances and may sometimes involve a little of both, perhaps.

 

[GodsGrace]

God knew it would fail and not remain as pure and effective as it started out.
That's how I look at it.

I have thought a lot about 'church' and concluded the idea presented to us in the earliest days of Acts and the days of the ministry of the Apostles would not and could not last. It was doomed from the beginning (Acts 20:29-30). Not because God's plan for 'church' was somehow flawed but because man is horribly flawed. But God's backup plan is alive and well and will remain to the very end: Me, the Holy Spirit, and the written word, and likeminded fellowship and discussion with other believers.

I agree on all.
And, yes, God knew it would fail...
But He wanted us to have free will.
And He allowed failure due to our having the option to choose.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not a big fan of Piper, lol. But, Jesus did say even a sparrow does not fall to the ground apart from the will of God. Does he purposely make it fall to the ground? Or does he purposely allow it to fall to the ground? Depends on the circumstances and may sometimes involve a little of both, perhaps.

John Piper is one of the top calvinists.
I'm not a fan of his at all. He's a horror to those who might question their faith because he tells the worried person that they most probably are not saved!

I do believe God allows nature to take its course...if He stopped the sparrow from falling it would have to be classified as a miracle.

 

[electedbyHim]

John Piper is one of the top calvinists.
I'm not a fan of his at all. He's a horror to those who might question their faith because he tells the worried person that they most probably are not saved!

I do believe God allows nature to take its course...if He stopped the sparrow from falling it would have to be classified as a miracle.

Piper has some great sermons on the sovereignty of God. I never really got into hi.

Nature taking its course, or divine sovereignty and providence?

 

[GodsGrace]

Piper has some great sermons on the sovereignty of God. I never really got into hi.

Nature taking its course, or divine sovereignty and providence?

But all Christians believe God is sovereign.

I believe God created everything, including the laws of nature. Apples fall downward, the earth spins just right. Etc.

When God intervenes, it's a miracle.
If He's moving everything that happens, then He's just using us to play a big video game

Did you see no. 1077?