Can sinning be overcome?

[Dorothy Mae]

So what is the falsehood you see in the endemic nature theology ?

That babies are born with an evil sin nature and that’s why we sin. We can’t help it and it not our fault.

The bible actually says we sin because we want and don’t have. We don’t have because we don’t ask. We ask and don’t receive because we ask with wrong motives. It doesn’t say we sin because we were born sinners. He who sins is a sinner.

No scripture says that. ( Dorothy Mae )

Why didn’t you quote scripture that says what you insist is so? Because there isn’t one. You can only quote me your theology.

 

[Robert Pate]

Can sinning be overcome in this life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Some Preachers and even theologian do not believe that all sinning can be overcome in this life either with or without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only certain sins can be overcome, thus they leave a 'gap' where sin can continue in our lives.

But people take this to mean that they can keep sinning as there is nothing they can do, or that these 'sins' are not really "hard sins" or "iniquity", but just part of being in a sinful world. Is that correct according to scripture?

Here are some texts on how we choose to heed the desires of our flesh, and for whatever reason, set aside the conviction of the Holy Spirit. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" Mark 14:38.

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

As long as one is still in their unredeemed Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23. They will sin. The law is spiritual, it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous no, not one" Romans 3:10.

 

[gordon777]

Reality is not all or nothing.

God glorified us, it is reality.


Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Consecrated Life]

That babies are born with an evil sin nature and that’s why we sin. We can’t help it and it not our fault.

If what you believe were true then a child who has not even begun to talk, would need to be taught to greedily rip away a desired toy from the hands of another child ?
But we know that no one needs to teach a very small child greed & anger & jealousy, don't we .

 

[gordon777]

Sin Nature is your conclusion. The scripture doesn’t say this. Besides, the wording is children of disobedience which has to mean what they do, but what they are.

gordon777 said: "But the children of disobedience ( of wrath and not of faith in Christ) are led by the prince of the power of the air, after this world, their nature is tied up with the devil.)"


Time past is what is spoken clearly, the spirit working in the children of disobedience, and we had our conversation in times past in the lusts of the flesh, children of wrath, even as others ( all are children of disobedience together.)

Ephesians 5 continues, no unclean person or idolater has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ, because of those things ( disobedience/children of wrath) comes the wrath of God on them. ( children of disobedience, children of wrath, receiving the wrath of God.) we are not to be partakers with them( childeen of disobedience/wrath) we were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light. ( not children of disobedience/wrath, to not receive the wrath of God.)

Colossians 3 continues the same also, not to do fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry, for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:i n the which ye also walked some time, when we lived in them. ( in times past we were children of disobedience/wrath)



Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

 

[gordon777]

The Bible says the gentiles “BY NATURE do the law.”

gordon777 said: Romans 2, along with the entire bible, speaks of how we are justified ( by faith in Christ and by the faith of Christ.) and that is the only way anyone by nature ( their nature is no longer with the devil, it is with Christ now) can do the things contained in the law. ( it is the law of Christ)


Our nature was or is with the prince of the children of disobedience, and it states clearly we had our conversation among that same thing ( being children of disobedience) to be by nature children of wrath. ( children of wrath are children of disobedience, by being disobedient to God, but obedient to he devil and sin.)


Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[gordon777]

As I said, Paul sees the unbeliever (Gentiles) as doing the law (don’t murder, don’t steal, etc) by nature. To Paul, They don’t have a sin nature, obviously.

gordon777 said: "Now we are no longer under the schoolmaster( the law) we are under the law to Christ/the law of Christ."

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


They have a sin nature if they are under the law, and they are under the law if they are not justified by Christ. ( who is the end of the law for righteousness.)


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

 

[gordon777]

You do realize that the moral law still applies.We are not free from “do not murder,” “do not steal,” “do not lie about others,” etc.

gordon777 said: "Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."



If Christ is not in us, we are morally abandoned( for those under the law of to not murder, to not steasl, to not lie about others etc)



Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[gordon777]

The error is in thinking everyone is born that way. But examining real children shows it isn’t so. They aren’t all born controlled by the lusts of the flesh. BUT, through many choices we can make ourselves into those kind of people by nature.

There are people whose thoughts continually are filled with their bodily desires. They have become by nature or character that sort of person. They weren’t born that way.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[gordon777]

As long as one is still in their unredeemed Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23. They will sin. The law is spiritual, it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous no, not one" Romans 3:10.

As long as we are in Christ, we are not in Adam.


1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[gordon777]

If what you believe were true then a child who has not even begun to talk, would need to be taught to greedily rip away a desired toy from the hands of another child ?
But we know that no one needs to teach a very small child greed & anger & jealousy, don't we .

Yes we all know how we have to bring up children.


Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.


Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Um, newborns don’t speak at all. They cannot speak lies or truth or anything resembling language.

For anyone interested, this is Hebrew metaphorical language. There are many such statements in Hebrew literature. We ourselves use similar metaphors. If I say it’s raining cats and dogs, there isn’t a sudden increase in canines or felines. If one says they’re starving, they aren’t about to die of hunger. This statement in the Bible does not describe newborns. It’s an exaggeration meant to insult same as saying someone who behaves badly was “an abused child” knowing nothing whatsoever about their childhood.

Now there’s a second problem you’ve likely not considered.This verse says ONLY the wicked are such, not everyone.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This doesn’t speak of an inborn sin nature either. And worse, it makes a distinction between peoples you won’t want to
highlight if you are trying to say all have a sin nature from birth.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes we all know how we have to bring up children.

Born with a sin nature.
Very simple.

 

[gordon777]

Um, newborns don’t speak at all. They cannot speak lies or truth or anything resembling language.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


But they can be estranged, and when they can speak it is lies.



John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[gordon777]

This doesn’t speak of an inborn sin nature either. And worse, it makes a distinction between peoples you won’t want to
highlight if you are trying to say all have a sin nature from birth.

gordon777 said: Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The children of the flesh are flesh from birth, otherwise we have to be born of the Spirit.


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

 

[gordon777]

Born with a sin nature.
Very simple.

Yes, and we need to be born again. ( without that sin nature)


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Born with a sin nature.
Very simple.

No bible verse says babies have a sin nature.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Newborns do not speak at all, neither lies nor the truth. And this verse even so, say only SOME are wicked evidenced by speaking untruths the first day of being born. Amazing. No hospital nursery has reported this but still you believe it.

But they can be estranged, and when they can speak it is lies.

Newborns cannot speak at all and again, only SOME not everyone according to that verse.

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

How is this evidenced? By the choices they made. Are they born speaking lies as newborns? Does not seem to be the case. But in any event, only some are born that way in your view. The vast majority are not since the vast majority of newborns cannot speak lies and are not reported to do so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

gordon777 said: Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So only some are born with a sin nature? Is that your view?

The children of the flesh are flesh from birth, otherwise we have to be born of the Spirit.

Uh, all humans have a body and that is comprised of flesh. All. Adam and Eve before their rebellion also has a flesh body. And they were sinless until they rebelled. FLESH. Flesh is not evil. They were flesh and not evil at first.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They had to choose on their own to receive him. Notice it does not say for as many as he received. Man has to make a choice. Once chosen, having done their part, God does his part....afterwards.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Adam said of Eve, "flesh of my flesh" so there we have flesh that is good.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes, and we need to be born again. ( without that sin nature)

You and me , envy, greed, lie , lust. anger none the less.
To what nature then do you attribute your continued , anger , lying, envy ,lust, greed ?