Can sinning be overcome?

[Consecrated Life]

No bible verse says babies have a sin nature.

If what you believe were true then a child who has not even begun to talk, would need to be taught to greedily rip away a desired toy from the hands of another child ?
But we know that no one needs to teach a very small child greed & anger & jealousy, don't we .

 

[gordon777]

How is this evidenced? By the choices they made. Are they born speaking lies as newborns? Does not seem to be the case. But in any event, only some are born that way in your view. The vast majority are not since the vast majority of newborns cannot speak lies and are not reported to do so.

By being in the flesh and not the Spirit.


Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[gordon777]

So only some are born with a sin nature? Is that your view?

Uh, all humans have a body and that is comprised of flesh. All. Adam and Eve before their rebellion also has a flesh body. And they were sinless until they rebelled. FLESH. Flesh is not evil. They were flesh and not evil at first.

They had to choose on their own to receive him. Notice it does not say for as many as he received. Man has to make a choice. Once chosen, having done their part, God does his part....afterwards.

Adam said of Eve, "flesh of my flesh" so there we have flesh that is good.

All of the flesh are flesh, all of the Spirit are Spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[gordon777]

Uh, all humans have a body and that is comprised of flesh. All. Adam and Eve before their rebellion also has a flesh body. And they were sinless until they rebelled. FLESH. Flesh is not evil. They were flesh and not evil at first.

When born of the Spirit, we are not of Adam, we are in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[gordon777]

They had to choose on their own to receive him. Notice it does not say for as many as he received. Man has to make a choice. Once chosen, having done their part, God does his part....afterwards.

gordon777 said: "John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


They received Him, because He gave them power to become. ( power to receive Him)


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


The world cant receive Him, only those He gives power to become receive. ( we receive the Spirit of God to know the things of God that are freely given to us.)



John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[gordon777]

Adam said of Eve, "flesh of my flesh" so there we have flesh that is good.

gordon777 said: "John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."


All in Adam die, it cant be good unless you love death.( do you want to preach life or death, Adam/flesh, or Christ Spirit.)


Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.



2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[Hopeful]

Your old nature is still with you as well & it still sins .

No it isn't.
It was killed with Christ when it was crucified with Him. (Gal 5:24)

You don't believe it is your new nature that, lies, lusts, covets, etc,etc, do you ?

That is what the old nature continues to do with the unconverted.
The unreborn of God's seed.

Paul was much less confused than yourself concerning cohabitating two natures we all have.
Rom 7:25
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

That was Paul's recollection of his former life while still in the flesh and unsuccessfully trying to obey the Law.
In fact, Rom 8:2 answered his "law of sin" plaint..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

 

[Hopeful]

Anyone reading can see if Hopeful has any interest in the testimony of Jesus Christ, or only denial of what is revealed here below ?
The Lord will show us the path of life, at His right hand are pleasures for evermore.

"The Lord will..."

Show your marvellous lovingkindness, Him who saves by His right hand.

"Him who saves..."

The Lord saves His Anointed, He will hear from His holy mountain,, with the saving strength of His right hand.

"The Lord saves..."

( the wicked) in whose hands are mischief, their right hand is full of bribes.

"The wicked..."

( Israel) got not their land in possession by their own arm, but the Lords right hand, and His arm, and the light of His countenance, because He had a favour unto them.

"Israel got..."

Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

"Thou wilt show..."

Psalm 17:7 Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.

"Oh thou that saves..."

Psalm 20:6 Now know I that the Lord saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

"The Lord saveth..."
I guess you have granted autonomy to the hands and feet of others too.

I will continue to worship the Lord God Almighty,
You seem intent on worshipping His hands and feet.

Hands and feet can only do what the mind decides they will do.
If your hands and feet are to blame for your sins, do as Jesus advised and cut them off. (Matt 5:29-30)
OR, you can circumcise the entire body of sin by the circumcision of Christ, (Co 2:11), done at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. (Rom 6:6)

 

[Hopeful]

Well, then you become less tolerant of different places in one's walk. I do not think true Christians are only those who achieve righteous behavior. There is tolerance within the kingdom of God. But yes, the character of a person, the fruit, show who is following Jesus and to what degree.

Your "tolerance" has allowed you to consider the polluted as members of Christ's body.

 

[Hopeful]

I see the same problem as well.
The belief that having no condemnation , equates to having no more endemic nature .
Which if were true would by definition then mean you could this very moment make the same claim for yourself that this Jesus who is the Christ makes for Himself.

Jhn 14:30
1.... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Yet you dare not .

Endemic or Adamic?
What is your definition of an "endemic" nature?

 

[Consecrated Life]

No it isn't.
It was killed with Christ when it was crucified with Him. (Gal 5:24)

That is what the old nature continues to do with the unconverted.
The unreborn of God's seed.

1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God's Word says that the deceit , dishonesty of saying you have no sin are manifest fruits of the corrupt old nature on full display .
Spiritual racketeering , transparent to all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

By being in the flesh and not the Spirit.


Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Yes, of course this is true but this is so christian lingo that is so vague, no one knows if they are doing so or not. If we ask anyone here, are you "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" can they honestly answer yes? If we ask how they know, will they know how to answer? Or do they merely claim they are "in the Spirit" because the BIBLE tells them they are? Of course it does not because there are buckets of Scripture that tell us to examine our behavior to see if this is so, not examine the scripture to see if this is so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

gordon777 said: "John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."


All in Adam die, it cant be good unless you love death.( do you want to preach life or death, Adam/flesh, or Christ Spirit.)


Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.



2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

When God made man's flesh, he said it was good. And there are many scriptures that say the body is good, fearfully and wonderfully made. There are even bodies that we find beyond merely good but beautiful and when we come into his kingdom, this is what we hope is said of all of us, that we all have a beauty that shines forth because of how He has changed us. Isn't this the case?

I say this because the Gnostics despise the body and their theology has crept into the church. One needs to distinguish between the lusts of the body and the body itself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

gordon777 said: "John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


They received Him, because He gave them power to become. ( power to receive Him)

No, he gave them power to become BECAUSE they received Him. That is what it actually says. To as many as chose to receive him, he gave them who HAD received him the power to become which does not come because they can make that happen but only God responded to their choice. This pattern is repeated in the scripture.

I know calvinism insists God does it all and man is passive and lucky (not their words but still accurate), but this does a great injustice to God and is not in Scripture in any case.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


The world cant receive Him, only those He gives power to become receive. ( we receive the Spirit of God to know the things of God that are freely given to us.)

The world did not receive Him. There is no scripture that says God gave the unbelievers power to receive him otherwise you would quote it. Because that is not true. We have a small, necessary but insufficient part to play in our relationship with God.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Ah, the spirit of truth, not salvation. Salvation is a different matter. And yes, only those who are his can receive the spirit of truth, although it is not automatic nor do all who are his want the spirit of truth. Many who are his do not want to receive the Spirit of truth and so do not have it.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

All true although we can refuse to receive anything He wants to give at any point and many do. I know of people who get quite angry when the baptism of the Holy Spirit is mentioned. They not only do not want it, they all but hate the idea of some Christians being so blessed and others (them) not. Christianity, to them, is totally democratic with no one closer to God, more Christlike than any other and they are prepared to release their anger to anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

All of the flesh are flesh, all of the Spirit are Spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus did not mean that flesh is evil, he was stating a fact. He was flesh as well. Flesh is not bad nor opposite of spirit except when fulfilling its desires that are wrong. Jesus was not a Gnostic who despised the fleshly body.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If what you believe were true then a child who has not even begun to talk, would need to be taught to greedily rip away a desired toy from the hands of another child ?

But the majority of children I watched as my children were growing did not do this. They just did not. If what you believe were true that ALL the children would be constantly doing this. This is not the case.

Now, what we need to consider is that small children have no moral awareness. So they cannot be morally bad. They do not know morally bad. They only know they have wants and needs. Babies have needs that are life threatening if not met. They don't cry because they are selfish but because if Mom or Dad does not meet their needs, their life is threatened eventually.

But we know that no one needs to teach a very small child greed & anger & jealousy, don't we .

I am sorry but this is not what I observed in the children I saw in the play groups over many years. There were few children who were greedy or jealous. Controlling anger is something children need to learn along with other emotions, true. But this is not evil. Anger has its place.

Now I do admit that the modern world encourages or forces parents to put their infants in day care so both parents can work. And I was at a small children's party recently where there were 2-3 year olds. All but one of which were in day care from 6 months onwards. And all but one were naughty unpleasant children. They were disobedient, defiant and selfish. The only child who was relaxed and obedient and pleasant was the one who his father had raised so far. So the impression that children have a sin nature might actually be more the outcome of them not receiving the love they need at a young age. Since more and more children experience this, the impression can be quite strong.

I was fortunate enough to raise my small children in a country that is generous in its maturity care and a woman has her job guaranteed for three years from the time she gives birth. They believed a child ought to have his mother care for him at home until he is 3. There was a world of difference in the children so raised as compared to babies in day care.

 

[gordon777]

"The Lord will..."

"Him who saves..."

"The Lord saves..."

"The wicked..."

"Israel got..."

"Thou wilt show..."

"Oh thou that saves..."

"The Lord saveth..."
I guess you have granted autonomy to the hands and feet of others too.

I will continue to worship the Lord God Almighty,
You seem intent on worshipping His hands and feet.

Hands and feet can only do what the mind decides they will do.
If your hands and feet are to blame for your sins, do as Jesus advised and cut them off. (Matt 5:29-30)
OR, you can circumcise the entire body of sin by the circumcision of Christ, (Co 2:11), done at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. (Rom 6:6)

Israel and everybody of course was labelled as evil.

Right hand doing the evil, right eye doing the evil, foot, and out of the thought proceeding evil thoughts. ( that is why right eye, right hand, foot, and heart have to be changed, or they of course remain evil.)


Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:



Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

 

[gordon777]

Yes, of course this is true but this is so christian lingo that is so vague, no one knows if they are doing so or not. If we ask anyone here, are you "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" can they honestly answer yes? If we ask how they know, will they know how to answer? Or do they merely claim they are "in the Spirit" because the BIBLE tells them they are? Of course it does not because there are buckets of Scripture that tell us to examine our behavior to see if this is so, not examine the scripture to see if this is so.

These two quotes speak the same, read and see, and they tell, how we can tell if we are in the truth ( in the Spirit)


1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

 

[gordon777]

When God made man's flesh, he said it was good. And there are many scriptures that say the body is good, fearfully and wonderfully made. There are even bodies that we find beyond merely good but beautiful and when we come into his kingdom, this is what we hope is said of all of us, that we all have a beauty that shines forth because of how He has changed us. Isn't this the case?

I say this because the Gnostics despise the body and their theology has crept into the church. One needs to distinguish between the lusts of the body and the body itself.

Jesus describes us as evil, and there is only one good. ( He must be placed on us, for us to believe He is the good shepherd who gave HIs life for the sheep, who were gong astray/in evil.)


Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

[gordon777]

No, he gave them power to become BECAUSE they received Him. That is what it actually says. To as many as chose to receive him, he gave them who HAD received him the power to become which does not come because they can make that happen but only God responded to their choice. This pattern is repeated in the scripture.

Enabled, to receive. ( look at actual real examples) called by His grace.


Matthew 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.
21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

Luke 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,