Christianity and Luxury

[WIP]

I freely admit that I don't want to so I make up excuses to myself why I can't do it. I enjoy my worldly goods and my relative luxury. We all KNOW there are people starving to death every day. I could have saved some of those lives - but I didn't.

Now this is something you said that I fully agree with. Now you are understanding what Jesus is teaching.

That alone should make it hard for me to get into heaven, and the same applies to most people posting here.

Here is where you slip back a little. What we do has nothing to do with getting to heaven. For whatever we do, we have only done what is our duty to do. That is why I posted from Luke 17 in my previous post. Looking back at that post I see I neglected to point where those verses came from.

The message in part is that for everything we do, no matter how much we do, we can never do anything more than is our duty to do. We CANNOT earn our passage into heaven by our doing because no matter how much we do we have only skimmed the surface of what is our duty to do. Only by what Jesus has done can we find passage. Follow Him through the narrow gate!

How many lives could the mega rich pastors save?

None. Only Jesus can save.

 

[Paul1965]

"Isambard" said:
How many lives could the mega rich pastors save?
None. Only Jesus can save.

I agree, yet disagree.
Here's my rationale.
For people to be saved, they must confess their sins, repent and place their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and confess Him as their saviour.
If they physically die due to malnourishment, lack of clean water, lack of medical aid you name it, BEFORE they have a chance to know him and convert, they can be spiritually lost and condemned.
That being the case, any of us who doesn't do what we can afford to, to help, are in effect contributing to their eternal destination.
So in answer to Isarmbard's question about the mega-pastors, I believe they could in fact save many by truly leading people to Christ and using the bulk of donations to help the needy in JESUS' name, not their own name to gain fame and power. The fame, power and glory all belong to Jesus.

 

[Edward]

How many lives could the mega rich pastors save?

This is an interesting question. The answer of course is none, for Jesus saves, however, I think that many people are really healed at these events. It may be that the heart of the Pastor is in the wrong place, but I have found that the healing scriptures which they use many times are very much true. So if we have a Pastor who's heart is worldly, but a person in the congregation whose heart is not, and needs healed, that the Holy Spirit can and does go ahead and heal them. My heart goes out to these mega Pastors who steal from God. That's a very dangerous thing to do. Remember in scripture they disciples were taking up a collection for something and a man came in who had sold his field and held back some of the money? He fell over dead, and afterwards, his wife also. Uh-oh! Methinks they should be very careful who they steal from!

 

[Deborah13]

Now this is something you said that I fully agree with. Now you are understanding what Jesus is teaching.


Here is where you slip back a little. What we do has nothing to do with getting to heaven. For whatever we do, we have only done what is our duty to do. That is why I posted from Luke 17 in my previous post. Looking back at that post I see I neglected to point where those verses came from.

The message in part is that for everything we do, no matter how much we do, we can never do anything more than is our duty to do. We CANNOT earn our passage into heaven by our doing because no matter how much we do we have only skimmed the surface of what is our duty to do. Only by what Jesus has done can we find passage. Follow Him through the narrow gate!


None. Only Jesus can save.

:amen

 

[Isambard]

Where is this place?


Where is this place?


Where is this place?

The answers take little imagination. Personally, I live in a village with no public transport, no shops, no employers and not even a pub. A car is not a luxury.

In common with plenty of others I often work from home rather than using the car. For that, I need a computer and electricity to wind it up. That's the way of the world in a 'developed country.

In the US, I have seen hundreds of very remote homes which would be impractical, in this day and age, without a car and electricity - but I'm sure you know that really. Or are you suggesting that people should regress to a lifestyle common 100 years ago?

 

[Isambard]

Now this is something you said that I fully agree with. Now you are understanding what Jesus is teaching.


Here is where you slip back a little. What we do has nothing to do with getting to heaven. For whatever we do, we have only done what is our duty to do. That is why I posted from Luke 17 in my previous post. Looking back at that post I see I neglected to point where those verses came from.

The message in part is that for everything we do, no matter how much we do, we can never do anything more than is our duty to do. We CANNOT earn our passage into heaven by our doing because no matter how much we do we have only skimmed the surface of what is our duty to do. Only by what Jesus has done can we find passage. Follow Him through the narrow gate!


None. Only Jesus can save.

The bold text is my emphasis.

I'm afraid we are in total disagreement. What we do and what we don't do is highly relevant. The opposite of that is to argue that spending a life of murder and mahem really doesn't matter as long as you repent. Sorry, I don't agree.

 

[Classik]

I didn't read everything. I like the verse that says the Spirit bears witness with ours that we are the children of God.

How much rich is excess and how much poor is Christian?
Then third world countries are probably gonna occupy heaven before America, China etc can (or maybe they wont at all). The scripture doesnt condemn richies...it condemns our evil ways of achieving 'em.

 

[WIP]

In common with plenty of others I often work from home rather than using the car. For that, I need a computer and electricity to wind it up. That's the way of the world in a 'developed country.

True except you say this as if it is a requirement. It is not. Your lifestyle is your choice. You chose to work from home with a computer that requires electricity. You see, its not that it is impossible to live without the luxuries we have today. The problem is we believe we need these things and we are reluctant to give them up without a fight. Me too!

In the US, I have seen hundreds of very remote homes which would be impractical, in this day and age, without a car and electricity - but I'm sure you know that really. Or are you suggesting that people should regress to a lifestyle common 100 years ago?

Take a ride around my neighborhood. We have plenty of families living exactly that way. They have no electricity, no motorized vehicles or power equipment, and heat their homes with firewood they cut by hand. Their mode of transportation is either their own two feet or horsepower, literally. They grow most of their own food, sell whatever they don't need, and make all their own clothing. They provide many services for the area including a sawmill, building construction, textile work, farrier service, and others. Their lifestyle is reminiscent of over 150 years ago.

What we do has nothing to do with getting to heaven.

The bold text is my emphasis.

I'm afraid we are in total disagreement. What we do and what we don't do is highly relevant. The opposite of that is to argue that spending a life of murder and mahem really doesn't matter as long as you repent. Sorry, I don't agree.

I think you've misunderstood and taken me completely out of context here.

 

[Isambard]

...................I think you've misunderstood and taken me completely out of context here.

I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean. I quoted the whole of your post specifically to ensure that it was entirely in context. Your words were, "What we do has nothing to do with getting to heaven." That appears to be pretty clear. If you didn't mean those words, what exactly did you mean?

 

[Isambard]

..........Then third world countries are probably gonna occupy heaven before America.........

'But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first' seems to confirm exactly that.

 

[WIP]

I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean. I quoted the whole of your post specifically to ensure that it was entirely in context. Your words were, "What we do has nothing to do with getting to heaven." That appears to be pretty clear. If you didn't mean those words, what exactly did you mean?

You appear to me to be expressing a works salvation and this is what I am trying to help you understand. We cannot earn our way into heaven by our works. There is only one way....Jesus. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6 There is no other way. Our works is not another way. I believe our works is an extension and expression of our faith. We don't do works because of what Jesus might do for us. We do the works because of what Jesus has already done.

Thank God for Jesus Christ!

This is going a little off topic so I'd like to try and redirect it back on topic. What I have been trying to share is that we need to proceed with caution. We must always remember that when we judge others (including the rich) and where their heart is, we will be judged in like manner. We don't know where their heart is. When we judge we are doing it with our fingers crossed and with zero knowledge about their heart. God sees into our hearts.

Matthew 7:
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

What I believe we need to do is make sure we are not putting our faith in our own wealth and just like the rich young ruler we do have wealth even if we don't admit it.

 

[Isambard]

You appear to me to be expressing a works salvation and this is what I am trying to help you understand. We cannot earn our way into heaven by our works. There is only one way....Jesus. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6 There is no other way. Our works is not another way. I believe our works is an extension and expression of our faith. We don't do works because of what Jesus might do for us. We do the works because of what Jesus has already done..........

It appears that we were not communicating very well. We seem now to agree that what we do in life is of importance.

There is no other way.

That appears to be where we disagree.

If a good honourable person had led a blameless life but had been a follower of another religion, or followed no religion at all, I do not think that God would be so petty as to keep that person out of heaven. Conversely, a mass murderer, rapist, paedophile, drug baron repenting on his death bed is unlikely to be as welcome as say - Mahatma Ghandi who claimed to follow lots of religions.

 

[WIP]

I'm afraid you are mistaken and this brings us back to the message Jesus was trying to get across to the rich young ruler as I am trying to get across to you. What did Jesus say he had to do to inherit eternal life? Let's look at it again from Matthew 19 and pay close attention to the last three words in the text. I've bold highlighted them for you. Without those last three words, all the works in the world won't matter.

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One,that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

You have been deceived. Jesus is the only way, end of story.

 

[jasonc]

I work for a electric and water utilitlity. in my county there are at least three homes that are occupied that have neither water or electricity from us . sometimes they have no electric but have water from the county. that is from my routes that have done. I know that in the poor areas that is more. I have done that one route in a while so I cant say.

 

[Deborah13]

This is an interesting question. The answer of course is none, for Jesus saves, however, I think that many people are really healed at these events. It may be that the heart of the Pastor is in the wrong place, but I have found that the healing scriptures which they use many times are very much true. So if we have a Pastor who's heart is worldly, but a person in the congregation whose heart is not, and needs healed, that the Holy Spirit can and does go ahead and heal them. My heart goes out to these mega Pastors who steal from God. That's a very dangerous thing to do. Remember in scripture they disciples were taking up a collection for something and a man came in who had sold his field and held back some of the money? He fell over dead, and afterwards, his wife also. Uh-oh! Methinks they should be very careful who they steal from!

I try to see the good that they do without dismissing their twisting of scripture.
So I see that several of those mentioned every year use millions of dollars to help the poor, dig wells for clean water in Africa, feed child after school (it may be the only real meal they get that night), help storm victims all over the world.....need I continue....

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ecclesiastes 11:19;
"A feast is made for laughter,
wine makes life merry,
and money is the answer for everything".

Enjoy!

 

[reba]

This is an interesting question. The answer of course is none, for Jesus saves, however, I think that many people are really healed at these events. It may be that the heart of the Pastor is in the wrong place, but I have found that the healing scriptures which they use many times are very much true. So if we have a Pastor who's heart is worldly, but a person in the congregation whose heart is not, and needs healed, that the Holy Spirit can and does go ahead and heal them. My heart goes out to these mega Pastors who steal from God. That's a very dangerous thing to do. Remember in scripture they disciples were taking up a collection for something and a man came in who had sold his field and held back some of the money? He fell over dead, and afterwards, his wife also. Uh-oh! Methinks they should be very careful who they steal from!"

It was the lying that busted them
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

 

[Deborah13]

Good point, reba.

 

[Isambard]

I'm afraid you are mistaken and this brings us back to the message Jesus was trying to get across to the rich young ruler as I am trying to get across to you. What did Jesus say he had to do to inherit eternal life? Let's look at it again from Matthew 19 and pay close attention to the last three words in the text. I've bold highlighted them for you. Without those last three words, all the works in the world won't matter.

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One,that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

You have been deceived. Jesus is the only way, end of story.

Ah, if only life were that simple. In some ways, I admire your confidence, but that is just your interpretation - and it seems to be a popular interpretation in the US too. Like it or not, we can all look in The Bible and find whatever we want to find. Somewhere (I just tried to find it but failed) Jesus is asked about non-believers and he replies that they are OK as long as they live a good life - or words to that effect. All too often we can find completely opposing 'instructions' in The Bible - so we can all find something to support our point of view (except, in this instance I couldn't find it :erm - but I know it is there).

Interestingly, you have re-quoted the same passage that I introduced earlier as 'evidence' that we should follow Jesus' example and lead a life of asceticism. You appear to accept some of the possible meanings of 'come, follow me', but you stop short of following Jesus all the way into a simple life and away from riches and luxury. If you think that Jesus was saying that following Him was the ONLY WAY, then why are you not doing so? I'll answer that for you - you are interpreting things how you want to interpret them - just as we all do. So, less of the, "I'm afraid you are mistaken..... you have been deceived" please. We can all read and interpret; what we can't do is be certain. I am delighted to read your interpretation but less delighted to be talked down to. We are all on a journey (hence WIP?) and find different things along the way. My guess is that no two Christians believe exactly the same things - hence your certainty can appear like arrogance - just as mine can.

 

[Classik]

Maybe I have also failed to comprehend your posts. Are you trying to teach us that Christ professes that Christians should be poor? Or is there any bible verse that clearly illustrates Christ was poor? I'm totally surprised, I really am.

I think we must have misinterpreted 'following Christ'. If God loves me, If Christ trully loves me He'd do whatever He can to stop me from being rich - just in order to save my soul. He gave me John 15:7. Or do we ask amiss?

The last time I checked the Earth I noticed that GOD made all in aboundance. Those would be a waste if His Children don't strive to claim them. I summarise by saying our Loving God gives us that level of wealth that would not put us into trouble - unless we choose to be stubborn - doing it our own way. Danke