Confronting the doctrine of sinless perfection with 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10

[JJonas]

This is a new thread to continue the discussion I have about the doctrine of sinless perfection with Hopeful 2 on the thread “John Calvin's Heretical Teaching”. Indeed this discussion is off-topic and needs to move to a new thread to stop polluting the original thread. I will repost my last answer (https://christianforums.net/threads/john-calvins-heretical-teaching.102895/post-1859069).

1 Corinthians 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Colossians 3:5-10: see below

 

[JJonas]

It was a slap in the face for the posers.
Professing Christianity, they still served the devil.

Not it wasn't! No way that the Scripture can call servants of the devil pretending to be christians to be “babes in Christ” needing to be feed with milk (for their growth)! Scripture cannot lie! But it's not the first time I brought this fact to your attention. Why do you ignore Scripture when it refutes your theology, instead of letting your theology be corrected by Scripture?

Why is there a need to "kill" something that is supposedly already dead ?

If the Bible tells us so, who are we to oppose it? More accurately, the Bible says that the we are dead, but we still need to put to death our members. No contradiction here, just paradoxical truths that are both to be taken seriously! Here is how I understand it:

• Yes by being planted together in the likeness of [Christ's] death (Rom 6) we are one for all dead.
  • That speaks about an action at the core of the problem of sin. Already done.
• But we are commanded to put our members to death
  • That speaks about action on all the ramifications of sin. To be done everyday. Sanctification as a lifestyle

The Rom 8:13 and Col 3:5 verses are meant for the unlearned and not yet converted.

First, it looks like to me that you preach here work salvation, because the message of the Gospel to the lost is different.

Second, The surrounding texts refutes your claim:

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

It's the same recipients in the whole text. Yes, the ones who no longer walk (v. 7) in the mentioned evil things (v. 5), that have put off the old man with his deeds (v. 9) and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him (v. 10), are the same ones, who are commanded to put to death their members (v.5), and put off all kind of evil (v. 8) and to not lie to one another (v. 9).

Again, Scripture refutes your theology! Aren't you going to let Scripture correct it?

"""B"""
I don't feel that there was anything evil that I was doing that I didn't know was a sin.

You choosed B. Again, Scripture refutes your theology in many places:

• Sharp contention and division between Paul and Barnabas (Acts 15:36-39)
• Believers acting with hypocrisy, including Peter and Barnabas, which caused Paul to publicly confront Peter (Gal 2:11-14)
• For we all stumble in many things (James 3:2a)
• Sins of believers are addressed in many of the NT epistles, including what I already mention in 1 Cor. 3
• 1 John 1:8-9
• (...)

Feelings are deceitful! Do not trust your feelings, trust Scriptures!
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death (Pr. 14:12)
The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:5)

There is no way continuing to debate if we don't both agree that we are not to suppress the Scripture when it refutes our theology but we are to let our theology be corrected by Scriptures!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"Sinless perfection" is the lukewarn attitude of the Laodicean church. Their slogan is their perceived sinless perfection - "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing." (Rev. 3:17) But in Jesus's review, they're "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked".

 

[JJonas]

"Sinless perfection" is the lukewarn attitude of the Laodicean church. Their slogan is their perceived sinless perfection - "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing." (Rev. 3:17) But in Jesus's review, they're "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked".

You are right! What we think about us has no value. What Jesus thinks about us has all the value!

We all need to pray as David did:

Psalm 139:
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You are right! What we think about us has no value. What Jesus thinks about us has all the value!

No, it's the opposite. We were taught that we have all the values, we were born sinless, we're on track on evolving into gods; God teaches us that we're sinners in debt to him who gave his own, truly sinless son to die for our sins.

 

[JJonas]

No, it's the opposite. We were taught that we have all the values, we were born sinless, we're on track on evolving into gods; God teaches us that we're sinners in debt to him who gave his own, truly sinless son to die for our sins.

There is a misunderstanding. I meant that our opinion on ourselves is no help to us. We are often mistaken and proud. All that counts is the opinion of Christ on us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

"Sinless perfection" is the lukewarn attitude of the Laodicean church. Their slogan is their perceived sinless perfection - "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing." (Rev. 3:17) But in Jesus's review, they're "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked".

I can't agree with your blending perfect obedience to God with worldly wealth.
If their attainment of sinlessness was what they were allegedly bragging about, and what they were being condemned for not actually achieving, wouldn't it be wise for us to strive for the thing they had not attained ?
Saying it can't be done, nullifies all that Jesus did.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are right! What we think about us has no value. What Jesus thinks about us has all the value!

We all need to pray as David did:

Psalm 139:
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Careful...some might consider that works salvation !

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I can't agree with your blending perfect obedience to God with worldly wealth.
If their attainment of sinlessness was what they were allegedly bragging about, and what they were being condemned for not actually achieving, wouldn't it be wise for us to strive for the thing they had not attained ?
Saying it can't be done, nullifies all that Jesus did.

That's not any blending. When they brag they are in need of nothing, are they still in need of a robust relationship with Jesus? Are you? Do you still need Jesus in your life? Or you're good on your own because you're already "perfectly sinless?" Paul wrote about this in 2 Timothy 3:5, that these lovers of pleasure, who will have a form of godliness but deny the power of the Holy Spirit, that's anything but "perfect obedience" to God, that's self righteous.

 

[JJonas]

Careful...some might consider that works salvation !

Dear Hopeful,
I don't care much what some might consider. I launched this thread to continue the debate we had on the thread “John Calvin's Heretical Teaching”. Are you going to consider my last answer to you (2nd post in this thread) and give me an answer? Or should I consider that it is true that you suppress the scripture when it refutes your theology?

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's not any blending.

Oh yeah ?

When they brag they are in need of nothing, are they still in need of a robust relationship with Jesus?

As wealth, riches and goods can never replace any relationship with God or His Son, your point is moot.
It is apples and oranges.
Has Jesus mentioned their relationship with Him in Rev 3, your point might have been valid.

Are you?

Oh yeah.
Every prayer includes His name.
Every reading of scripture includes His Spirit in my learning.
Every meal starts with thanksgiving for His kindness.

Do you still need Jesus in your life?

Just because I have completed steps one through six doesn't mean I won't need Jesus to help me in steps seven through however many there may still be.

Or you're good on your own because you're already "perfectly sinless?"

Perfect obedience to God was one of the first steps, thanks be to God for the gift of repentance from sin.
Without His help, there wouldn't have been any other steps.

Paul wrote about this in 2 Timothy 3:5, that these lovers of pleasure, who will have a form of godliness but deny the power of the Holy Spirit, that's anything but "perfect obedience" to God, that's self righteous.

Yep, and because I heeded that exhortation from the Lord's apostle, I didn't end up with the others listed in
2 Tim 3..."This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Those folks sounded anywhere but obedient to Father.
I didn't see any warnings about being obedient to God being bad for me.
Did you ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Dear Hopeful,
I don't care much what some might consider. I launched this thread to continue the debate we had on the thread “John Calvin's Heretical Teaching”. Are you going to consider my last answer to you (2nd post in this thread) and give me an answer? Or should I consider that it is true that you suppress the scripture when it refutes your theology?

If this is the question you refer to..."Why do you ignore Scripture when it refutes your theology, instead of letting your theology be corrected by Scripture?"...I have seen no scriptures that refute 1 Tim 6:3's doctrine which is according to Godliness.
Your failure to recognize that Paul's Rom 6 audience consists of more than those already dead with Christ can't make my answers wrong.

 

[Hopeful 2]

"Sinless perfection" is the lukewarn attitude of the Laodicean church. Their slogan is their perceived sinless perfection - "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing." (Rev. 3:17) But in Jesus's review, they're "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked".

Just what do you think sinless perfection is ?
Man can't remain obedient to God by being lazy.
Those folks were using their carnal belongings to usurp their faith and dependence on Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are right! What we think about us has no value. What Jesus thinks about us has all the value!

We all need to pray as David did:

Psalm 139:
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Doesn't that sound like a search for sinless perfection to you ?
Unfortunately, David walked in the "flesh" until his death, not having the NT's ability to be reborn of God's seed so he could walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, it's the opposite. We were taught that we have all the values, we were born sinless, we're on track on evolving into gods; God teaches us that we're sinners in debt to him who gave his own, truly sinless son to die for our sins.

He didn't die so we could keep committing sin.

 

[JJonas]

If this is the question you refer to..."Why do you ignore Scripture when it refutes your theology, instead of letting your theology be corrected by Scripture?"...I have seen no scriptures that refute 1 Tim 6:3's doctrine which is according to Godliness.
Your failure to recognize that Paul's Rom 6 audience consists of more than those already dead with Christ can't make my answers wrong.

My questions were specifically about your understanding of some verses (mainly 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10), but instead of addressing that, you diverted by citing another verse, which, in addition to this, has no evident relationships with the verses in question! Then your answer can only be out of context!

Until you address my questions in relation to the verses in question, I am not interested anymore to discuss with you on this matter, as it is turning to a dialog of the deaf.

Thank you for your understanding!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

As wealth, riches and goods can never replace any relationship with God or His Son, your point is moot.
It is apples and oranges.
Has Jesus mentioned their relationship with Him in Rev 3, your point might have been valid.

No it's not "apples and oranges. Laodiceans have indeed deserted Jesus for their wealth, they think they've had everything, but Jesus warns them, they have nothing.

Oh yeah.
Every prayer includes His name.
Every reading of scripture includes His Spirit in my learning.
Every meal starts with thanksgiving for His kindness.

Just because I have completed steps one through six doesn't mean I won't need Jesus to help me in steps seven through however many there may still be.

That's not real need of Him, that's your piety and self righteousness. You're using him to glorify yourself, instead of confessing your sins to him and casting your worries to him.

Perfect obedience to God was one of the first steps, thanks be to God for the gift of repentance from sin.
Without His help, there wouldn't have been any other steps.

Perfect obedience is not sinless perfection. Tell me, is this still a sinful broken world we're living in? If so, there's always sins to repent for till he returns, sometimes not for your own sins, but others whom you care about. If you were truly obedient to God, you'd love your neighbor as yourself, and you'd understand that.

Yep, and because I heeded that exhortation from the Lord's apostle, I didn't end up with the others

And yet you ended up like the Pharisee:

God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector! (Lk. 18:11)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Just what do you think sinless perfection is ?

A heresy. Blasphemy.

 

[Hopeful 2]

My questions were specifically about your understanding of some verses (mainly 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10), but instead of addressing that, you diverted by citing another verse, which, in addition to this, has no evident relationships with the verses in question! Then your answer can only be out of context!
Until you address my questions in relation to the verses in question, I am not interested anymore to discuss with you on this matter, as it is turning to a dialog of the deaf.
Thank you for your understanding!

Thank you for pin-pointing your question more fully.
I Cor 3:1-4..."And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"
You regard those labeled carnal, as brothers in Christ.
Paul always speaks to the churches with a grain of salt, not willing to just cast them away, but with hope that they will correct their errors.
For if they don't heed his chastisements they will be lost.
The chastised are at the point of staying in the faith or leaving it.
In their present state, pre-chastisement, they are not brothers in Christ anymore.
They are walking after the "flesh" and not after the Spirit; which won't accept the things Paul is correcting.

As for Col 3:5-10..." Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
Though not sure of the context of your question here, as Col 3 isn't about whether or not we should considering sinners as brothers like the 1 Cor 3 verses led us to, I will attempt to address it.
As I previously commented, I read the word "mortify" here, as "keep dead".
The rest of the epistle is a fine tuning of what has already been taught.

Some see every exhortation by Paul as proof that the recipient of the letter wasn't already in God's good graces...still sinners.
But the churches had both long time believers and new member which knew far less than the OGs. (old guys)
Bringing up, or amending, past teachings not only illuminates newbies but cements past lessons in the hearts of the OGs.
Re-honing a "sword" never hurt anyone.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No it's not "apples and oranges. Laodiceans have indeed deserted Jesus for their wealth, they think they've had everything, but Jesus warns them, they have nothing.

I agree with Jesus that wealth and goods cannot replace the true comfort of being in Christ.

That's not real need of Him, that's your piety and self righteousness. You're using him to glorify yourself, instead of confessing your sins to him and casting your worries to him.

Too bad you see obeisance to God as a bad thing.

Perfect obedience is not sinless perfection.

Name a single sin that manifests perfection.

Tell me, is this still a sinful broken world we're living in? If so, there's always sins to repent for till he returns, sometimes not for your own sins, but others whom you care about. If you were truly obedient to God, you'd love your neighbor as yourself, and you'd understand that.

The world is the realm of the prince of the power of the air now.
But those in Christ are not of this world.
Just because the world is jumping off a cliff doesn't mean we also have to.

And yet you ended up like the Pharisee:
God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector! (Lk. 18:11)

Actually I didn't end up like the Pharisee.
I humbled myself before God and now, thanks to the grace of God that is available to all who humble themselves before God, live in the state that Jesus died for us to live.
It is written..."That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life." (Luke 1:74-75)