Contradicting Beliefs

[Knotical]

He took the whole covenant out on the Cross, you just choose parts of the old that make you happy:


Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


So where in the NT does it authorize the extension of the hands which is part of the body which is part of their being which is an extension of ones heart to be used for worship?

Your opinion is not of value.

To borrow from your school of logic then you should not be singing any songs, considering all songs were composed by writing notes and words down on a piece of paper. What did they use to write? Their hands. If the hands are not an extension of the body, then any song that was composed via writing it down as it was being worked out, should not be used in worship.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Here, you are most certainly wrong. If scripture is silent on something, the onus is on those who say God demands that it not be done. You don't know that He demands that instruments not be used in worship, because He never says they are not to. The onus is on you to prove your position. It is most definitely on you. Scripture is silent on it. This would be an amusing conversation if you didn't make a small thing that God is silent on salvific. Since you have, your flawed logic is tragic.

This would be like God telling Noah to use gopher wood. Was the onus upon Noah to prove that God did not want oak even though God was silent on using oak in building the ark? No. God's silence on using oak was proof He did not want oak used but gopher wood.

You posted "You don't know that He demands that instruments not be used in worship, because He never says they are not to"

Did Noah not know that God did not demand oak not be used therefore oak would have been alright to use because God never said not to to use oak?

(See how hard it can be to figure out all these double negatives if one argues silence is not binding when it actually is!)

You posted "The onus is on you to prove your position."

My proof is the NT says 'sing' so I sing, nothing more nothing less I just sing as it says sing and what is wrong with just singing as the the NT says? Nothing. Now if you play an IM then the onus is upon you to prove that there is nothing wrong with playing IMs. Again, just saying "well nowhere did God say not use IMs" is not proof. God told Noah to use gopher wood yet Noah use oak then God asks Noah "why did you use oak when I said gopher wood". Noah responds "well you never said to not use oak".

Do you not see the bad logic in this way of thinking? It's no different if you order the NY strip steak dinner with sweet tea and the waiter brings you a plate of liver and root beer. You say "I did not ask for this liver and root beer' and the waiter says "well you never said not to bring you liver and root beer, so you're getting it....and stop complaining". Is the onus on you to prove that you told the waiter to not bring you liver and root beer? No. There would be literally an innumerable number of things you could have told the waiter to not bring you. The waiter could have brought you an old pair of sneakers for after all you never specifically told him to not bring you a pair of old sneakers.

See how complicated a simple restaurant order can get if silence were not binding. You ordered the NY strip steak dinner and sweet tea but was silent about everything else on the menu. So if the waiter brings you anything other than what you requested, then the onus is upon the waiter to explain why he brought you something you did not authorize him to bring you.

Likewise if Noah built the ark out of oak wood the onus be upon Noah to explain why he used oak when God only asked for and authorized gopher wood. So the fault and onus is not upon God for not specifically ruling out oak but upon Noah for using something not aksed for, not authorized. Therefore when God said to use gopher wood God's silence on all the other typesof wood means He did not want them and if Noah used oak then he has to explain why he did not use gopher wood.

Doing as God said is salvic for it has to do with either obeying God (doing righteousnes) or disobeying God (committing sin). If God said to sing to worship Him but instead I juggle grapefruits to worship Him that is disbedience/sinful even though God never specifically said "do not juggle grape fruits. Just as God told Moses to speak to the rock and it would bring forth water but Moses hit the rock even though God never specifically said "do not hit the rock". Yet that disobedience kept Moses out of the promised land no matter how much he begged and pleaded with God.

So if God did not specifically tell Moses "do not hit the rock" and yet Moses did, do you think Moses was justly punished since God was silent about hitting the rock?

According to the thinking of some on this forum, Moses was treated wrongly and was completely right about hitting the rock since hitting was not specifically forbidden just like they think playing IM is completely right since playing IMs was not specifically forbidden.

Now is their and Moses' logic flawed for hitting the rock and playing IMs or is God's logic flawed for failing to specify everything He wants and does not want?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Also, I did a Google search and one article ( http://www.sharefaith.com/guide/Chr...worship/instruments-of-the-new-testament.html ) says this:

The Greek New Testament word for Psalms is: Psalmoi, originally meaning "songs sung to a harp," from psallein "play on a stringed instrument." (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

I don't know Greek, so I can't confirm this. Just bringing it up, though. If anyone happens to know that it's inaccurate, correct me.

Wikipedia had this to say:

The word psalms is derived from the Greek Ψαλμοί (Psalmoi), perhaps originally meaning "music of the lyre" or "songs sung to a harp" and then to any piece of music. From psallein "play upon a stringed instrument" and then to "make music in any fashion".

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms

That said, Wikipedia isn't the best source in the world. So, if you can show why they're wrong, then please do so.


If this is true, though, then this would mean that Ephesians 5:19 is actually promoting musical instruments in worship.

 

[Grazer]

Did God instruct Noah on how to build the ark? He specified the wood....but that's it

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[Sinthesis]

Where is all the scripture to back that opinionated statement...

Again I will use the Old Testament for the purpose it was left to us for, we are no longer under any law or commands in it, the laws have changed, but God has not so we can use it to know he means what he says and says what he means:

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And since the schoolmaster is scripture and all scripture can be used for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then since Nadab and Abihu were instructed on how to make fire (parallel with our instruction to "sing") they decided to make fire other than the way he said (parallel with our playing music) and because they made fire in a way "he commanded them not" he killed them.

Leviticus 10:1-2 (KJV)
1. And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

Note he "commanded them not" so he had "not commanded them to do it" so we have an example that shows just because he did not say we cannot do it, it does not mean we can.

There is scripture that supports the fact we cannot worship him the way we want to, but the way He wants us to... so where is your scripture that says you can do anything you want as long as he did not say "don't do that"?

According to your flawed logic, Church organists should be devoured by fire from the Lord.

Luk 9:49 - And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 - And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.​

With the scripture you quoted you obviously recognize "authority", those in Luke 9:49 by doing so "in thy name", although not with the disciples were doing so in a way he authorized.

So, without "flawed logic" show me where in the new testament IM was performed, taught, or commanded "in thy (His) name" or "by his authority?" lay aside stringed instruments, you certainly cannot find authorization for any wind (organ) instruments...

I can show you where we are told to "sing and make melody?"

You don't know the exact way in which the one was casting out devils in Jesus' name, only that Jesus approved. Perhaps he was using a stringed or woodwind instrument. You'll never be able to prove he wasn't. As Jesus was a carpenter, it's very likely He used His talents to fashion musical instruments to demonstrate His skill. You'll never be able to prove He didn't.

Unless you can show where God has devoured musicians in church with fire, then your argument relating instrumental music to Nadab and Abihu is exposed as false.

You can't show where Jesus prohibits instrumental music, but if you can show where we are told to sing and make melody, then you can also show that we are authorized to use musical instruments.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't care for these debate threads, as for one thing they often go over my head, but if I may just pop in here for a second and give my experience--
I haven't read the entire thread or even a great deal of it, but it appears the topic is about worshipping without music?
Just wanted to say that I've had some very wonderful worship experiences when singing, both with and without music. IMO, the music doesn't really matter, it's the condition of your heart.

Actually it's about contradicting beliefs and doctrines that exist among all the various religious groups with using or not using musical instruments being one of those issues.


Can all in these varying hundreds if not thousands religious groups be true Christians if they contradict each other about how to become a Christian?

Do you think the bible is the inerrant, inspired true word of God?

Most if not all here on this forum would answer 'yes'.

Yet if you argued that all these varying groups are right about salvation and becoming a Christian, about worship etc, then how do you explain all the contradictions away? All these religious groups would claim they are following the bible when it comes to salvation and if they really were then they would all believe the same way. But if they were somehow all correct about salvation, then the contradictions imply that the bible is a book of contradictions and God is an author of confusion, that is, it implies the bible teaches all these contradictions about how to become a Christian.


So it comes down to believing either the bible is God's true, inerrant inspired word and all these groups cannot be right about salvation/becoming a Christian therefore they are not all saved Christians as they claim

or

the bible is a book of contradictions with a confused author and useless in regards to salvation/becoming a Christian and men's varying ideas and opinions determines how one is saved/becomes a Christian.

It has to be one or the other, it cannot be both.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Actually it's about contradicting beliefs and doctrines that exist among all the various religious groups with using or not using musical instruments being one of those issues.


Can all in these varying hundreds if not thousands religious groups be true Christians if they contradict each other about how to become a Christian?

Do you think the bible is the inerrant, inspired true word of God?

Most if not all here on this forum would answer 'yes'.

Yet if you argued that all these varying groups are right about salvation and becoming a Christian, about worship etc, then how do you explain all the contradictions away? All these religious groups would claim they are following the bible when it comes to salvation and if they really were then they would all believe the same way. But if they were somehow all correct about salvation, then the contradictions imply that the bible is a book of contradictions and God is an author of confusion.


So it comes down to belieivng either the bible is God's true, inerrant inspired word and all these groups cannot be right about salvation/becoming a Christian therefore they are not all saved Christians as they claim

or

the bible is a book of contradictions with a confused author and useless in regards to salvation/becoming a Christian and men's varying ideas and opinions determines how one is saved/becomes a Christian.

It has to be one or the other, it cannot be both.

IMO a good deal of the ideas presented by the varying groups is due to things that the Bible is unclear on, and are thus debatable.
And that's understandable. However, if they try to say that doing X, Y, or Z will take away your salvation, then IMO they are way off base.

But that is a discussion I would rather not get into as I am not knowledgeable enough to defend my position. If "salvation by faith versus salvation by works" is the point of this conversation then I would like to go ahead and bow out now.

 

[Grazer]

There is a 3rd; the bible has contradictions and errors and its exactly how God wanted it

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[Ernest T. Bass]

Worshiping with out IM is not the contradiction. The contradiction comes in when the CofC believes they are the only true church and everyone else is damned.
The cofC is full of hypocrisy. Using the OT only when it serves the outcome they wish. Ignoring passages that say clearly "do this" or "don't do this" because it does not fit their choices.
Claiming to be NT cofC and yet they do not adhere to Acts 2:45.... 1 Cor 14:39 is disregarded ...Romans 16:16 is ignored for sake of a name, a title ,

The contradiction is between churches and Scripture.

The contradictions exists when the BIBLE says there is ONE BODY and ONE FAITH and Christ is the Savour of that one body.

But man says NO! there are many bodies and many faiths (even though those bodies and faiths contradict each other) and that Christ is the Saviour of all those that participate in these false man-made contradictions.

 

[Knotical]

Or, it could just be that the bible is the inerrant word of God and we fallible, feable humans have a hard time understanding what He is trying to convey without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

We come up with false and errant doctrines when we "think" we know what the bible is saying instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what He is actually saying.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Or, it could just be that the bible is the inerrant word of God and we fallible, feable humans have a hard time understanding what He is trying to convey without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

We come up with false and errant doctrines when we "think" we know what the bible is saying instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what He is actually saying.

Amen!

 

[evenifigoalone]

Or, it could just be that the bible is the inerrant word of God and we fallible, feable humans have a hard time understanding what He is trying to convey without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

We come up with false and errant doctrines when we "think" we know what the bible is saying instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what He is actually saying.

I agree.

 

[farouk]

I agree.

So do I.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Very much so. But the CofC doesn't have time for such things as Psalms 150, or other such verses.

What about Psalms 66:13-15 where David offered animal sacrifices. If David is the NT Christian's example of worhsipping God then were are those animal sacrifices?

Yet the misunderstanding many have is that David is not an example of NT worship for David lived at a different time under a different law. Again, if one argues the use of IMs just because of David then one can argue for the animal sacrifces and polygamy in todays church for David did those things also. In Gal 5:3 if one bases his argument and justification from the OT then one is a debtor the the WHOLE law. So there is no going back to the OT law and cherry-pick out what you like as Psa 150 and ignore what you do not likeas Psa 66:13-15.

Secondly, a few posts back I post many verses that show that CHrist took the ALL of the OT out of the way and made it inactive, ineffective by nailing to His cross. No one has the power or authority to try and bring back and make effective what Christ took out of the way and made ineffective. So if one argues for the use of IMs he will have to base that argument out of he NT law. Again in Rom 7:1-6 one who is a Chrisian is DEAD TO THE LAW so one cannot be a Christian and keep the OT and NT at the same time for that is a type of spiritual adultery.

 

[reba]

Originally Posted by reba
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

This is the Biblical example of the NT church does the cofC comply with the verses in Acts...

Yes

Wonderful you comply with Scripture I will see you in a new light of credibility! let me understand ....you don't own your home, car, or computer? A refrigerator, TV, radio, furniture, heater cooler, fishing pole? sewing machine, piano, you own nothing?

 

[rrowell]

Unless you can show where God has devoured musicians in church with fire, then your argument relating instrumental music to Nadab and Abihu is exposed as false.

The lesson in Nadab and Abihu is not how to build a fire, it is how to worship the Lord the way "He" wants to be worshiped, not how "we" want to worship him.

You can't show where Jesus prohibits instrumental music, but if you can show where we are told to sing and make melody, then you can also show that we are authorized to use musical instruments.

I can show where he says "sing and make melody" but in no way can you show where he said it s okay to use IM, we cannot worship God any old way we want to no more than could Nadab and Abihu...

 

[Grazer]

Don't we make melody with instruments?

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[reba]

but didn't you say

..Wrong Dispensation, we are in the Christian Dispensation you keep forgetting
that...

 

[Knotical]

What about Psalms 66:13-15 where David offered animal sacrifices. If David is the NT Christian's example of worhsipping God then were are those animal sacrifices?

Yet the misunderstanding many have is that David is not an example of NT worship for David lived at a different time under a different law. Again, if one argues the use of IMs just because of David then one can argue for the animal sacrifces and polygamy in todays church for David did those things also. In Gal 5:3 if one bases his argument and justification from the OT then one is a debtor the the WHOLE law. So there is no going back to the OT law and cherry-pick out what you like as Psa 150 and ignore what you do not likeas Psa 66:13-15.

Secondly, a few posts back I post many verses that show that CHrist took the ALL of the OT out of the way and made it inactive, ineffective by nailing to His cross. No one has the power or authority to try and bring back and make effective what Christ took out of the way and made ineffective. So if one argues for the use of IMs he will have to base that argument out of he NT law. Again in Rom 7:1-6 one who is a Chrisian is DEAD TO THE LAW so one cannot be a Christian and keep the OT and NT at the same time for that is a type of spiritual adultery.

Yes, I saw the post where you generalized the entire OT into being part of "the law", and that Jesus completely did away with it. Completely false doctrine, quite frankly as He came to fulfill the law and clarify it. No, we are no longer living under the law because He died for our sins, but we are still to live our lives under the guidance of the law. For an example of this you merely need to look at the sermon on the mount where he clarifies that a sin is not just something we physically do, but can also be something we hold in our hearts. Jesus brought a more abstract understanding of sin to the fore, and we are to look at the law through that lens.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nice contradiction you are playing with here. First we are not supposed to hold to the 10 Commandments then we are only supposed to hold to 9 of them.

Your understanding of the word "fulfill" is quite interesting.

THe contradcition is trying to keep both the OT and NT at the same time which Paul said was a type of spiritual adultery, Rom 7:1-6

Christ did take the ALL the OT out of the way including the 10 commandments. If you argue against this, then are you remembering the Sabbath day and keeping it holy? I do not for the 10 commandments was only given to the JEws to keep, see Deut 5:1-3 and Christ then made it ineffectinve on HIs cross. Yet since Christ "taketh away the first that He may establish the second" Christ's NT law makes lying, stealing, adultery, etc sinful for the Christian and not the ineffective 10 commandments. Very easy idea to understand, not hard at all.