Contradicting Beliefs

[rrowell]

Worshiping with out IM is not the contradiction. The contradiction comes in when the CofC believes they are the only true church and everyone else is damned.
The cofC is full of hypocrisy. Using the OT only when it serves the outcome they wish. Ignoring passages that say clearly "do this" or "don't do this" because it does not fit their choices.
Claiming to be NT cofC and yet they do not adhere to Acts 2:45.... 1 Cor 14:39 is disregarded ...Romans 16:16 is ignored for sake of a name, a title ,

The contradiction is between churches and Scripture.

Don't forget arrogance. There is just a touch of arrogance as well.

Arrogance? I should remind you that your both moderators and should act as such...

I have used the old testament for what it was left to us for... not to use parts of the Jewish worship I like and disregard the parts I don't (like both of you have done)

We are commanded to "sing", I have shown it to be scriptural, therefore it is His will not mine, now show me where mechanical instrumental music is his will, not yours.

 

[Knotical]

Arrogance? I should remind you that your both moderators and should act as such...

I have used the old testament for what it was left to us for... not to use parts of the Jewish worship I like and disregard the parts I don't (like both of you have done)

We are commanded to "sing", I have shown it to be scriptural, therefore it is His will not mine, now show me where mechanical instrumental music is his will, not yours.

To use your logic then we are also "commanded" to use musical instruments (Psalms 150). But that is not what is going on. We are not "commanded" to sing, we are commanded to worship. In any way that will bring honor and glory to Him. Which can, and does, include musical instruments.

I asked this question before but received no response. I will ask it again. If God has blessed certain people with the ability play musical instruments, why would He not want them to use their gifts to worship Him?

 

[rrowell]

To use your logic then we are also "commanded" to use musical instruments (Psalms 150). But that is not what is going on. We are not "commanded" to sing, we are commanded to worship. In any way that will bring honor and glory to Him. Which can, and does, include musical instruments.

Wrong Dispensation, we are in the Christian Dispensation you keep forgetting that... and if we are to say we are commanded to use musical instruments (Psalms 150) then too are we to offer burnt sacrifices and burn incense... (Psalms 66) but you see? burnt offerings don't make you feel good...

Psalms 66:15 (KJV)
15. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.

Satisfying the Lord brings forth far less contradiction in belief than satisfying those who worship him

I asked this question before but received no response. I will ask it again. If God has blessed certain people with the ability play musical instruments, why would He not want them to use their gifts to worship Him?

Ill answer you question with a question, if musical instruments pleased God and He wanted it in worship of Him, why would he not have blessed all people with the ability to play musical instruments :


Romans 2:11 (KJV)
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[reba]

Arrogance? I should remind you that your both moderators and should act as such...

I have used the old testament for what it was left to us for... not to use parts of the Jewish worship I like and disregard the parts I don't (like both of you have done)

We are commanded to "sing", I have shown it to be scriptural, therefore it is His will not mine, now show me where mechanical instrumental music is his will, not yours.

Being a moderator does not imply we do not have our opinions nor that we should allow your one and only church teaching to be part of this board.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Burnt offerings were for forgiveness of sins, which isn't needed anymore as Jesus was our sacrifice. Different context.

I asked this question before but received no response. I will ask it again. If God has blessed certain people with the ability play musical instruments, why would He not want them to use their gifts to worship Him?

The Bible does say in Coloassians 3:17 to do everything in the name of Jesus. I believe He gives us our talents to use for His glory. The ability to play instruments is a talent.

 

[Knotical]

Wrong Dispensation, we are in the Christian Dispensation you keep forgetting that... and if we are to say we are commanded to use musical instruments (Psalms 150) then too are we to offer burnt sacrifices and burn incense... (Psalms 66) but you see? burnt offerings don't make you feel good...

Psalms 66:15 (KJV)
15. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.

Satisfying the Lord brings forth far less contradiction in belief than satisfying those who worship him



Ill answer you question with a question, if musical instruments pleased God and He wanted it in worship of Him, why would he not have blessed all people with the ability to play musical instruments :


Romans 2:11 (KJV)
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.

The need for burnt offerings was done away with when Jesus died on the cross. I thought you knew this.

As for everyone knowing how to play musical instruments, God has made us all special in our own ways. There are some who have been blessed with the gift of playing one or more musical instruments, while others are blessed with the gift of preaching.

Just take a listen during a worship service sometime. Can everyone around you carry a tune? Not even remotely, therefore, taking Ephesians 5:19 literally is impossible. Yet, some people who may not be able to sing are able to praise God by playing a musical instrument, or in some other way. Again, the verse is speaking to what is coming out of the heart, not specifically how the person is worshiping God.

 

[reba]

I cant carry a tune in a radio.... The scriptures do say make a joyful noise, that I can do!

 

[Mike]

Ill refer you to my post to you which you skirted right over, I showed that in times past God has shown displeasure in those who worship him the way they want to, and not the way He wants them to.

Again I will use the Old Testament for the purpose it was left to us for, we are no longer under any law or commands in it, the laws have changed, but God has not so we can use it to know he means what he says and says what he means:

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And since the schoolmaster is scripture and all scripture can be used for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then since Nadab and Abihu were instructed on how to make fire (parallel with our instruction to "sing") they decided to make fire other than the way he said (parallel with our playing music) and because they made fire in a way "he commanded them not" he killed them.

Leviticus 10:1-2 (KJV)
1. And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

Note he "commanded them not" so he had "not commanded them to do it" so we have an example that shows just because he did not say we cannot do it, it does not mean we can.

There is scripture that supports the fact we cannot worship him the way we want to, but the way He wants us to... so where is your scripture that says you can do anything you want as long as he did not say "don't do that"?

The Onus is on you.

This counter is just as irrelevant as your previous one, which is why it failed and why I ignored it. It's also why the CoC is of little consequence and probably why God has not blessed this denomination with growth.

In two separate very lengthy threads, you have not been able to say where God commands us not to use instruments in our worship. That's because He doesn't! The Onus remains on you, but only you need to accept that you will not be able to meet this burden of proof.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Jesus included the 10 commandments in that, and added to love our neighbors as ourselves. He did not say we no longer have to keep the 10 commandments, just that our salvation will not be based on how we keep them.

Hi,

From Deut 5 the 10 commandments (law of Moses) was only given to the Jews to keep. Nowhere were Gentiles or CHristians ever required to keep the law of Moses including the 10 commandments for Christ took the OT (all of it including the 10 commandments) out of the way upon His cross, Col 2.

The 10 commandments said "Neither shalt thou commit adultery", Deut 5:18. Some will ask me since I think Christ took the OT out of the way including the 10 commandments, does that mean it is alright to now commit adultery? No. Even though Christ took the OT (including the 10 commandments) out of the way, He replaced it with His NT gospel that condemns adultery and idolatry and stealing and bearing false witness, etc. Christ's NT gospel basically repeats 9 of the 10 commandments for nowhere does Christ's NT gospel say the Christian is to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. So adultery, idolatry, stealing lying etc are all wrong fro the Christian NOT because the 10 commandments make them sinful but because Christ's NT makes those actions sinful. And the Christian does not remember the Sabbath day for the NT gospel does not require it.

 

[Knotical]

Hi,

From Deut 5 the 10 commandments (law of Moses) was only given to the Jews to keep. Nowhere were Gentiles or CHristians ever required to keep the law of Moses including the 10 commandments for Christ took the OT (all of it including the 10 commandments) out of the way upon His cross, Col 2.

The 10 commandments said "Neither shalt thou commit adultery", Deut 5:18. Some will ask me since I think Christ took the OT out of the way including the 10 commandments, does that mean it is alright to now commit adultery? No. Even though Christ took the OT (including the 10 commandments) out of the way, He replaced it with His NT gospel that condemns adultery and idolatry and stealing and bearing false witness, etc. Christ's NT gospel basically repeats 9 of the 10 commandments for nowhere does Christ's NT gospel say the Christian is to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. So adultery, idolatry, stealing lying etc are all wrong fro the Christian NOT because the 10 commandments make them sinful but because Christ's NT makes those actions sinful. And the Christian does not remember the Sabbath day for the NT gospel does not require it.

Nice contradiction you are playing with here. First we are not supposed to hold to the 10 Commandments then we are only supposed to hold to 9 of them.

Your understanding of the word "fulfill" is quite interesting.

 

[rrowell]

The need for burnt offerings was done away with when Jesus died on the cross. I thought you knew this.

Pick and choose, that's what you do, so too did the IM of Psalms go away with burnt offerings... not all offerings were fore forgiveness of sins, what about Peace offerings such as Thanks Offerings in response to an unsolicited special divine blessing? or votive offerings in pursuit of making a request or pledge to God? or simple Free will offerings spontaneously presented in worship and praise?

You pick and choose what you want out of the old testament instead of what it was left fore, as schoolmaster.

As for everyone knowing how to play musical instruments, God has made us all special in our own ways. There are some who have been blessed with the gift of playing one or more musical instruments, while others are blessed with the gift of preaching.

I can find where "preaching" has been commanded in the new testament church, but you cannot show me where playing mechanical instruments have been shown to be used or sanctioned by the NT Church.

Just take a listen during a worship service sometime. Can everyone around you carry a tune? Not even remotely, therefore, taking Ephesians 5:19 literally is impossible. Yet, some people who may not be able to sing are able to praise God by playing a musical instrument, or in some other way. Again, the verse is speaking to what is coming out of the heart, not specifically how the person is worshiping God.

God said "Sing" he did not say "Sing Good", and he most certainly did not say "Play Good".
It is speaking on what is coming out of the heart, not a mechanical instrument...

 

[evenifigoalone]

so too did the IM of Psalms go away with burnt offerings...

Where does the scripture say this?

Again, I'd think that the NT didn't say anything about it would infer that it doesn't matter.

 

[Knotical]

Pick and choose, that's what you do, so too did the IM of Psalms go away with burnt offerings... not all offerings were fore forgiveness of sins, what about Peace offerings such as Thanks Offerings in response to an unsolicited special divine blessing? or votive offerings in pursuit of making a request or pledge to God? or simple Free will offerings spontaneously presented in worship and praise?

You pick and choose what you want out of the old testament instead of what it was left fore, as schoolmaster.

I can find where "preaching" has been commanded in the new testament church, but you cannot show me where playing mechanical instruments have been shown to be used or sanctioned by the NT Church.

God said "Sing" he did not say "Sing Good", and he most certainly did not say "Play Good".
It is speaking on what is coming out of the heart, not a mechanical instrument...

The sacrifices in the OT were blood sacrifices, which Jesus fulfilled on the cross. From then on there was no need for blood sacrifices.

Pertaining to "mechanical instruments", how does one play an instrument? They use their hands, which is part of their body, which is part of their being, which is an extension of the heart, which are instruments that can be used to bring honor and glory to God.

Show me where playing mechanical instruments, in lieu of singing, was strictly forbidden in the NT church.

 

[rrowell]

This counter is just as irrelevant as your previous one, which is why it failed and why I ignored it. It's also why the CoC is of little consequence and probably why God has not blessed this denomination with growth.

In two separate very lengthy threads, you have not been able to say where God commands us not to use instruments in our worship. That's because He doesn't! The Onus remains on you, but only you need to accept that you will not be able to meet this burden of proof.

I have shown black and white inspired words of God that show just because God did not say we could NOT does something does not mean we can... (Nadab and Abihu)... you have shown nothing but opinion, and arrogance and resort to name calling... not much of an argument you have there mike

 

[reba]

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

This is the Biblical example of the NT church does the cofC comply with the verses in Acts...

 

[evenifigoalone]

Hmmm, I wonder, does the NT say anything about burnt peace offerings, one way or the other?

If it doesn't say anything, then I'd think that it wouldn't matter whether you use them or not, either.

(I don't know much about the purpose of the peace offerings, so if they had to do with the forgiveness of sins I don't know. This one's out of my league.)

 

[rrowell]

The sacrifices in the OT were blood sacrifices, which Jesus fulfilled on the cross. From then on there was no need for blood sacrifices.

He took the whole covenant out on the Cross, you just choose parts of the old that make you happy:


Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Pertaining to "mechanical instruments", how does one play an instrument? They use their hands, which is part of their body, which is part of their being, which is an extension of the heart, which are instruments that can be used to bring honor and glory to God.

Show me where playing mechanical instruments, in lieu of singing, was strictly forbidden in the NT church.

So where in the NT does it authorize the extension of the hands which is part of the body which is part of their being which is an extension of ones heart to be used for worship?

Your opinion is not of value.

 

[rrowell]

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

This is the Biblical example of the NT church does the cofC comply with the verses in Acts...

Yes

 

[evenifigoalone]

Okay, where does the Bible say that music is part of the old covenant? Simply because it was in the old testament and happens not to be mentioned in the new?

And again, why would God allow me to worship with songs with music if it was wrong?

 

[evenifigoalone]

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

What do you think of this verse, Rrowell?


Also, the verse you keep mentioning from Ephesians mentions using the psalms, which as we know speak of worshipping with instruments. Although I suppose it is possible they weren't referring to the Psalms.