Cultivating a love for the truth… The Doctrine of Christ.

[Bruce.Leiter]

That’s what He says. I just quote Him.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

Based on this passage, who is excluded from God’s plan of salvation; who is excluded from God’s love?

You're right that God has universal love for all his human creatures. However, if you would only take a passage in its context, the following verses, instead of taking it out of its context, you would get the full story:

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

The problem with the "world" is that it is infected with the self-centered rebellion of Adam and Eve. Sadly, in the end, because of God's perfect justice, they will be banished from the world that God loves.

 

[Free]

If those calling themselves "Christian" commit one sin, they manifest that they are not born of God.

This is blatant heresy based on either a complete inability to properly interpret Scripture or on a purposeful twisting of Scripture. Someone who teaches this is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have His word in them (1 John 1:8, 10).

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is blatant heresy based on either a complete inability to properly interpret Scripture or on a purposeful twisting of Scripture. Someone who teaches this is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have His word in them (1 John 1:8, 10).

Can anyone walk in the light ?
As God is the light, and there is no sin in Him, those walking in Him must be without sin.
Is anyone walking in God ?

 

[JLB]

It is sad that you don't think anyone walks in the light-God.

Which allows us to honestly say that we have no sin !

You narrative and words you use don’t align with scripture.

We can walk in the Spirit and be free from sinning, but we still have sin in our flesh.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9


You folly begins with the unscriptural theory that your physical body was born again when you were water baptized.

From there you deny 1 John 1:9 as being for Christians because you have deceived yourself.

We don’t have to wonder is this is true, we have scripture to validate our understanding about you because you yourself claim to be sinless.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Why would anyone want to receive your misguided counsel, knowing you have deceived yourself and that the truth is not in you… those are not my words but they come straight from the apostle John in scripture.

 

[JLB]

You're right that God has universal love for all his human creatures. However, if you would only take a passage in its context, the following verses, instead of taking it out of its context, you would get the full story:

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

The problem with the "world" is that it is infected with the self-centered rebellion of Adam and Eve. Sadly, in the end, because of God's perfect justice, they will be banished from the world that God loves.

Please explain how John 3:18-21 somehow teaches us that God doesn’t love the unsaved people of the world?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You narrative and words you use don’t align with scripture.

We can walk in the Spirit and be free from sinning, but we still have sin in our flesh.

That would go against the truth of Matt 9:17..."Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."
If we were all still old 'bottles', your POV would be correct.
But we are new bottles !

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

I am amazed that you can't see the incongruity of the two verses you cite.
V8 says we cannot say we have no sin, and v9 says we can have all our sin washed away !
Isn't one of them false and the other true ?
They can't both be true...unless one pertains to those walking in sin-darkness, (v8) and the other pertains to those who are going to start walking in the God-light after his cleansing. (v9)

You folly begins with the unscriptural theory that your physical body was born again when you were water baptized.

My supposed folly comes from my belief of 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Did you get that "ALL things" ?

From there you deny 1 John 1:9 as being for Christians because you have deceived yourself.

It is in fact the first step to being a Christian.
Confession.
But it must be followed by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins (Acts 2:38),...so we can say we have no sin !
Even that is pointless, without a true repentance from sin.

We don’t have to wonder is this is true, we have scripture to validate our understanding about you because you yourself claim to be sinless.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Some of us walk in the light, and there is no sin in God.

Why would anyone want to receive your misguided counsel, knowing you have deceived yourself and that the truth is not in you… those are not my words but they come straight from the apostle John in scripture.

Why would anyone want to remain in sin ?
Especially after Jesus said the truth could make us free of it ? (John 8:32-34)
How does one cultivate a love of the truth that can free them from service to sin, when they still commit sin ?
Repentance from sin must come first.

 

[Whatever]

If those calling themselves "Christian" commit one sin, they manifest that they are not born of God.

So you claim that you have not committed one sin since becoming a Christian?

 

[Whatever]

To be a Christian does not automatically mean to be born of God.

Well, "Christian" The suffix "-ian" is used to form nouns and adjectives, typically indicating a person who is a follower of or related to something.

So you can be half way following Christ, but not totally committed. At least in today's culture.

Acts 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."

Probably most Christians today are half hearted. They are more committed to their football teams than to the Church.

So yes, you can be a professed Christian and not be born again.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me. . . .
John 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Jesus only gives life (born again) to as many as the Father has give Him. The rest just follow for a while and then fall away (Mark 4:5-7)

 

[Whatever]

Which allows us to honestly say that we have no sin !

I don't think that is what John is talking about. I believe he is talking about our actual actions.

1 Timothy 5:6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

James 5:1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

Every one of us is way richer than James was or than 90% of the people in the world today. We probably all have savings accounts in the bank, retirement accounts.

Ezekiel 16:49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

That could talking about most of us arguing on this forum.

But of course, since you are living in the light, you have no sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So you claim that you have not committed one sin since becoming a Christian?

That is correct, to the glory of God.
Jesus' truth, from John 8:32-34, made me free !

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't think that is what John is talking about. I believe he is talking about our actual actions.

Sinning is an actual action, so what else could he be writing about ?

1 Timothy 5:6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.
James 5:1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
Every one of us is way richer than James was or than 90% of the people in the world today. We probably all have savings accounts in the bank, retirement accounts.

If we are using our riches for the good of others, where is the harm in it ?

Ezekiel 16:49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
That could talking about most of us arguing on this forum.

Who knows ?

But of course, since you are living in the light, you have no sin.

Is there sin in God ?
No.
Isn't God the light of 1 John 1:5 ?
Yes.
If we are walking in the light, we are walking in God...in Whom is no sin.
No sinner is walking in God.
Everyone else is walking in darkness, which Proverb 4:19 say is the way of the wicked.

 

[Whatever]

If we are using our riches for the good of others, where is the harm in it ?

But you are not doing that to the degree that Jesus. He had no home. You probably have a home, a car, television set and money sitting in a bank account.

Matthew 6:19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;

All of us do that. The only ones who take that literally are monks and nuns.

 

[JLB]

Is there sin in God ?

Is your physical body God?

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


Your physical body was not born again, as you claim.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Your spirit was reborn, you still have the same physical body you were born with.

 

[live2blive]

I disagree.
One can be a false Christian without being reborn of God's seed.

Yes, it can be expressed this way. People can believe in their imagination of Christ or in false Christ and call themselves Christians.

 

[live2blive]

Well, "Christian" The suffix "-ian" is used to form nouns and adjectives, typically indicating a person who is a follower of or related to something.

So you can be half way following Christ, but not totally committed. At least in today's culture.

Acts 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."

Probably most Christians today are half hearted. They are more committed to their football teams than to the Church.

So yes, you can be a professed Christian and not be born again.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me. . . .
John 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Jesus only gives life (born again) to as many as the Father has give Him. The rest just follow for a while and then fall away (Mark 4:5-7)

Very true. In addition and importantly, they don't know the true Christ.

 

[Whatever]

That is correct, to the glory of God.
Jesus' truth, from John 8:32-34, made me free !

What about his other truths?

Matthew 6:19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;

Unless you are a nun writing these posts from monastery electronics, you have treasures on earth.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

What Paul says would have no relevance to somebody who thinks like you do. There would be no reason for Paul to continue to write if you are correct. Why all the do not's?
Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Actually your view fits the made up argument against Calvinism that "once you are saved, you can continue to live like the devil and still be saved" because rape and murder and stealing are covered under the blood.

Or if you believe that nobody born again, never does anything wrong (another word for sin - missing the mark), then from my experience no Christian I have ever met was born again. Husbands and wives fight and argue with each other, members fight and argue over the color of the rug and a million little things I won't try to take the time to write. I don't know how many people will gripe to me about something the pastor or elder has said or done rather than talking directly to the person themselves. In Revelation it talks about the timid having their place in the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly . . . . . .have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
From δέος deos (dread); timid

All these people were to timid or fearful to talk to the pastor themselves, it is easier to just gripe about it to somebody else.

 

[live2blive]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10


This is the same John who wrote John 8.


There is no contradiction.

You are repeatedly not mentioning that this is the same John who wrote 1 John 3:8,9.

 

[JLB]

You are repeatedly not mentioning that this is the same John who wrote 1 John 3:8,9.

You will have to make a point and post the actual scripture.

 

[Hopeful 2]

But you are not doing that to the degree that Jesus. He had no home. You probably have a home, a car, television set and money sitting in a bank account.

I thank God for everything He has given me.

Matthew 6:19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;
All of us do that.

Speak for yourself.

The only ones who take that literally are monks and nuns.

Ugh...your examples are sinners ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Is your physical body God?

No, and neither is my spirit.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

The way to obey that exhortation is to resist every temptation.
Thank God that is doable, in Christ Jesus.

Your physical body was not born again, as you claim.

2 Cor 5:17 says differently..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Are you NOT in Christ ?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
Your spirit was reborn, you still have the same physical body you were born with.

My birth from my mom was of water/flesh.
My rebirth from God's seed, was of the Spirit.
My old body was destroyed when it was "immersed" into Christ's death. (Rom 6:6)
And my new spirit was put into a new "bottle". (Matt 9:17)
If it hadn't been, both the spirit and bottle would have been perished !