Data On The Trinity

[Randy]

If this verse that you quoted in Colossians 1:19 makes Jesus God. Then you are God too because Ephesians 3:19 says...
that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Colossians 1:19 ... that in him should all fulness dwell;

Very different context. Col 1:19 is the Son who was before the world began. Not one who is born again. I have been given fullness in Christ. In regard to the fullness of the Deity that was gifted to Jesus He is the first and last in that regard.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

If you knew Him you would know He is ALL that the Father is.

Jesus and the Father are one.

Why do you think He is called God and did not the Father glorify Him with that name?
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,


About the Son

But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”


And the firstborn states who is His Father
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.


Have you ever prayed to Jesus as I assure you He hears and answers prayers? Nothing is hidden from Him.
open that door for in Him we live.

 

[jaybo]

There are over 50 places where Jesus is called the son of God. Not once is he called God the son. Not once by anyone.

Read John 1:1 and John 10:30. Jesus is God and He and the Father are one. It's sad that you can't understand what the Bible clearly states: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God.

 

[Peterlag]

Read John 1:1 and John 10:30. Jesus is God and He and the Father are one. It's sad that you can't understand what the Bible clearly states: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God.

John 1:1 does not say Jesus is God and neither does John 10:30

It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.

 

[Peterlag]

Read John 1:1 and John 10:30. Jesus is God and He and the Father are one. It's sad that you can't understand what the Bible clearly states: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God.

John 10:30. Let's look at that...
There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

 

[Peterlag]

Very different context. Col 1:19 is the Son who was before the world began. Not one who is born again. I have been given fullness in Christ. In regard to the fullness of the Deity that was gifted to Jesus He is the first and last in that regard.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

If you knew Him you would know He is ALL that the Father is.

Jesus and the Father are one.

Why do you think He is called God and did not the Father glorify Him with that name?
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,


About the Son

But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”


And the firstborn states who is His Father
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.


Have you ever prayed to Jesus as I assure you He hears and answers prayers? Nothing is hidden from Him.
open that door for in Him we live.

The word Deity is not in the Bible and neither is the word Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God. Jesus himself tied the greatest commandment in the Law together with there being only one God when an expert in Old Testament law asked him which of the commandments was the most important. Jesus said to him “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God….” (Mark 12:29-30).

The pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound, International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.

 

[jaybo]

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. [Genesis 1:1, " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.] What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it."

That is all that it is necessary to know about Jesus being God. All the misinterpretation, rationalization, and sophistry will not negate what the Bible clearly and unmistakably says. Jesus was, is, and always will be God. Period.

 

[jaybo]

John 10:30. Let's look at that...
There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

Read my post #246. When Jesus said that He and the Father were one, He meant exactly what He said.

You are accidentally correct when you write "Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." All believers are one with God the Son because we are His body. Ephesians 5:29-30, " For no one has ever hated his own body, but he feeds it and takes care of it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of his body."

 

[Peterlag]

You haven't addressed most of my points, and they are quite a number. I'll lay it out for you:

You never responded to any points in this post (despite my pointing that out multiple times), which shows your understanding and argument of the logos to be lacking: https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-7#post-1691581

I then laid out the argument again, with some additional information, and you still haven't responded to the points I made: https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-11#post-1694119

I reposted a small part of that post, (https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-11#post-1694253) which you responded with a fallacious argument to the gender of "spirit": https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-12#post-1694349

I rebutted that fallacious argument with this: https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-12#post-1694363

Your rebuttal of that simply continued with the fallacy: https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-12#post-1694438

I then responded with this to try and show you your error in reasoning: https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-12#post-1694441

Your response didn't address any of the points I made. So, I gave further context to show you your error in reasoning: https://christianforums.net/threads/data-on-the-trinity.91799/page-12#post-1694613

And all you could come up with is a false analogy, that you "would not know what to say to a guy who said there's no such thing as air."

There is a constant in our discussion: you have continually avoided addressing points which do serious damage to your understanding of who Jesus is, to whom logos refers, and to your arguments to the gender of nouns. You haven't addressed any of those rebuttals.

It isn't that I've chosen to not believe, it's that your case is weak and I have no reason to believe what you have given thus far. Your understanding of who the logos is and who ("what," in your case) the Spirit is, is seriously lacking a proper understanding of biblical interpretation, and so you have come to wrong conclusions.


Proof please.


Trust you? Why? If you want to (fallaciously) argue that because it was started by the Catholics, it's false, then while you're at it, maybe you should throw out your Bible, since they are the ones who put the canon together. I'm sure if we dug just a little bit, we could find all sorts of "Catholic" doctrine that you believe to be true.

I clicked on your first link and it brings us back to John 1:1 that you say I copied and pasted. I did not. I keyed every word and could key in more. But I think what I said was enough. John 1:1 does not say Jesus is God. It talks about the word logos and I replied with this...

I don't see how you get Jesus from logos. Again... It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.

 

[jaybo]

The word Deity is not in the Bible and neither is the word Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God. Jesus himself tied the greatest commandment in the Law together with there being only one God when an expert in Old Testament law asked him which of the commandments was the most important. Jesus said to him “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God….” (Mark 12:29-30).

The pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound, International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.

Colossians 2:9, "For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form"

Even though the word "trinity" doesn't actually appear in the Bible, it is basic doctrine. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all manifestations of (the singular) God. “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me," John 15:26 a) the Helper, i.e., the Spirit of Truth, b) I [Jesus] will send to you c) from the Father -- the Trinity in one single verse.

Simply because you don't understand the triune God doesn't mean that it's false doctrine. It just means that you don't understand the concept. Ask God to give you true understanding. Who knows, maybe your "spiritual eyes" will be opened.

 

[Randy]

The word Deity is not in the Bible and neither is the word Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God. Jesus himself tied the greatest commandment in the Law together with there being only one God when an expert in Old Testament law asked him which of the commandments was the most important. Jesus said to him “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God….” (Mark 12:29-30).

The pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound, International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.

There is a lot about Jesus in the Bible.

Jesus-It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

 

[Peterlag]

Colossians 2:9, "For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form"

Even though the word "trinity" doesn't actually appear in the Bible, it is basic doctrine. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all manifestations of (the singular) God. “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me," John 15:26 a) the Helper, i.e., the Spirit of Truth, b) I [Jesus] will send to you c) from the Father -- the Trinity in one single verse.

Simply because you don't understand the triune God doesn't mean that it's false doctrine. It just means that you don't understand the concept. Ask God to give you true understanding. Who knows, maybe your "spiritual eyes" will be opened.

I have no idea how you can take a clear verse like John 15:26 that talks about the spirit of God being our new birth that was to come and did come in Acts 2. And somehow you call it the Trinity.
The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore “the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have upper-case and lower-case letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

Greek does have upper and lower-case letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only upper-case letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lower-case letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or “holy spirit” or “Spirit” or “spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

 

[Free]

I clicked on your first link and it brings us back to John 1:1 that you say I copied and pasted. I did not. I keyed every word and could key in more. But I think what I said was enough. John 1:1 does not say Jesus is God. It talks about the word logos and I replied with this...

I don't see how you get Jesus from logos. Again... It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.

This response is stunning, yet it isn't. With all due respect, this just proves what I have suspected for some time: you are either not reading my posts very well, or simply are not understanding what I have written. Either way, the discussion eludes you. You not only completely missed the point of my previous post, you have now made this exact post three times in this thread, which proves that you missed the point of my previous post.

I have shown your reasoning in the above argument to be deficient, in the first link I provided, yet you continue to use it while ignoring my refutation of it. If you're not going to follow the discussion and respond to points I have made, then what is the point of continuing?

Do you believe in monotheism? Are you a monotheist?

 

[jaybo]

I have no idea how you can take a clear verse like John 15:26 that talks about the spirit of God being our new birth that was to come and did come in Acts 2. And somehow you call it the Trinity.
The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore “the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have upper-case and lower-case letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

Greek does have upper and lower-case letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only upper-case letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lower-case letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or “holy spirit” or “Spirit” or “spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

I didn't read most of your post because you are denying what John 15:26-27 clearly says: "When the Advocate [the Holy Spirit] comes, whom I [Jesus] will send you from the Father [God]—the Spirit of truth [the Holy Spirit] who goes out from the Father [God]—he [the Holy Spirit] will testify about me [Jesus], and you also will testify, because you have been with me [Jesus] from the beginning." Holy Spirit: mentioned three times; Jesus: mentioned three times; God: mentioned twice.

Also, you go on and on about there being no upper and lower-case letters in the Greek, then make the statement that we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

I cannot understand your blindness or intentional disregard of the Bible's truth.

 

[Dykstra]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, and that is supporting evidence that the doctrine is unbiblical, which may be why Trinitarians differ, sometimes greatly in their definitions of the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western Church on the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Trinitarians who hold to the “classic” definition of the Trinity say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while on the earth believe differently from Kenotic Trinitarians who believe Jesus set aside his godhood while he was a man on the earth. Oneness Pentecostals say the classic formula of the Trinity is completely wrong, and yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

The so called trinity is a man made construct and a false doctrine. These 4 points are just the tip of reasons why its a false doctrine.
Firstly, the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any Hebrew or Greek Scriptures, and the word Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Secondly, many times, the Bible says that the Son sits at His Father’s right hand, but nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit sits next to the Father, or the Son, because there is no third Person of God in heaven or on earth.

Thirdly, the Trinity denies that Jesus Christ is His Father’s only begotten Son. Instead, it teaches that Jesus Christ is the eternally begotten Son of God, which is a man-invented, unbiblical, meaningless and confusing term. You need to clearly understand what the Bible means when it says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

Fourthly, the Trinity teaches that the Son is co-equal with His Father, however, Scripture is abundantly clear that the Son of God is not co-equal, but subordinate to His Father.

 

[jaybo]

The so called trinity is a man made construct and a false doctrine. These 4 points are just the tip of reasons why its a false doctrine.
Firstly, the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any Hebrew or Greek Scriptures, and the word Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Secondly, many times, the Bible says that the Son sits at His Father’s right hand, but nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit sits next to the Father, or the Son, because there is no third Person of God in heaven or on earth.

Thirdly, the Trinity denies that Jesus Christ is His Father’s only begotten Son. Instead, it teaches that Jesus Christ is the eternally begotten Son of God, which is a man-invented, unbiblical, meaningless and confusing term. You need to clearly understand what the Bible means when it says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

Fourthly, the Trinity teaches that the Son is co-equal with His Father, however, Scripture is abundantly clear that the Son of God is not co-equal, but subordinate to His Father.

John 15:26, "When the Advocate[the Holy Spirit] comes, whom I [Jesus] will send you from the Father [God]—the Spirit of truth [the Holy Spirit] who goes out from the Father [God]—he[the Holy Spirit] will testify about me [Jesus]"

I have posted this previously (perhaps not here) but it clearly demonstrates the existence of the trinity: Father (2x), Son (2x), and Holy Spirit (3x). The (not-so-called) Trinity is not a man-made construct or false doctrine; it is clearly Scriptural.

The doctrine of the Trinity is found in Greek Scriptures (above). Saying otherwise is denying the Scriptural truth.
Your second point is irrelevant, as is your third point.
Re your fourth point: " The Father and I are one.” John 10:30 Co-equal, two parts of the Trinity.

If you don't understand the triune Godhead, then you don't understand it. Saying it's false doesn't make it so. It just means that you don't believe the Bible.

 

[Free]

The so called trinity is a man made construct and a false doctrine. These 4 points are just the tip of reasons why its a false doctrine.
Firstly, the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any Hebrew or Greek Scriptures, and the word Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Secondly, many times, the Bible says that the Son sits at His Father’s right hand, but nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit sits next to the Father, or the Son, because there is no third Person of God in heaven or on earth.

Thirdly, the Trinity denies that Jesus Christ is His Father’s only begotten Son. Instead, it teaches that Jesus Christ is the eternally begotten Son of God, which is a man-invented, unbiblical, meaningless and confusing term. You need to clearly understand what the Bible means when it says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

Fourthly, the Trinity teaches that the Son is co-equal with His Father, however, Scripture is abundantly clear that the Son of God is not co-equal, but subordinate to His Father.

What are your thoughts on monotheism? What is your view of God?

 

[Peterlag]

The so called trinity is a man made construct and a false doctrine. These 4 points are just the tip of reasons why its a false doctrine.
Firstly, the doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any Hebrew or Greek Scriptures, and the word Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Secondly, many times, the Bible says that the Son sits at His Father’s right hand, but nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit sits next to the Father, or the Son, because there is no third Person of God in heaven or on earth.

Thirdly, the Trinity denies that Jesus Christ is His Father’s only begotten Son. Instead, it teaches that Jesus Christ is the eternally begotten Son of God, which is a man-invented, unbiblical, meaningless and confusing term. You need to clearly understand what the Bible means when it says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

Fourthly, the Trinity teaches that the Son is co-equal with His Father, however, Scripture is abundantly clear that the Son of God is not co-equal, but subordinate to His Father.

Here's more on the co-equal...

The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time. Jesus said: “…the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). In contrast, the orthodox formula of the Trinity says the Father and the Son are “co-equal.”

The Bible says the Son will be subject to the Father even in the future “When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him [God] who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28). The teaching that the two of them are “co-equal” must be wrong if Jesus is subject to the Father even in the eternal future. John 10:36 says “do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?” The fact that Jesus was consecrated, or as it's translated in other versions as “sanctified” by God shows he's not God because God does not need to be sanctified. Philippians 2:6 says that Christ “did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.” The point of the verse is that Jesus Christ was highly exalted by God because he was humble and did not seek equality with God. Jesus would never have needed to seek equality with God in the first place because it would have been inherent in him if he was God.

 

[Peterlag]

This response is stunning, yet it isn't. With all due respect, this just proves what I have suspected for some time: you are either not reading my posts very well, or simply are not understanding what I have written. Either way, the discussion eludes you. You not only completely missed the point of my previous post, you have now made this exact post three times in this thread, which proves that you missed the point of my previous post.

I have shown your reasoning in the above argument to be deficient, in the first link I provided, yet you continue to use it while ignoring my refutation of it. If you're not going to follow the discussion and respond to points I have made, then what is the point of continuing?

Do you believe in monotheism? Are you a monotheist?

I just went back a few posts and clicked on them and it's all John 1 stuff. I don't see a teaching there on the Trinity, but rather just the word logos that the Trinity people try twisting into Jesus is God. I don't see what you see. Scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.

 

[Free]

I just went back a few posts and clicked on them and it's all John 1 stuff. I don't see a teaching there on the Trinity, but rather just the word logos that the Trinity people try twisting into Jesus is God. I don't see what you see.

I know you don’t, which is why yet again you completely missed what I have said. You are simply unable to follow the discussion, so it’s not surprising that you don’t believe the Bible reveals God as triune.

You also didn’t answer my questions: Do you believe in monotheism? Are you a monotheist?

Scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture.

Any names of or links to these scholars?

In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.

Of course Jesus was fully and truly human. But he is also fully and truly God. Both of these are clearly taught in the NT, particularly seen in Phil 2:5-8.

 

[jaybo]

Here's more on the co-equal...

The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time. Jesus said: “…the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). In contrast, the orthodox formula of the Trinity says the Father and the Son are “co-equal.”

The Bible says the Son will be subject to the Father even in the future “When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him [God] who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28). The teaching that the two of them are “co-equal” must be wrong if Jesus is subject to the Father even in the eternal future. John 10:36 says “do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?” The fact that Jesus was consecrated, or as it's translated in other versions as “sanctified” by God shows he's not God because God does not need to be sanctified. Philippians 2:6 says that Christ “did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.” The point of the verse is that Jesus Christ was highly exalted by God because he was humble and did not seek equality with God. Jesus would never have needed to seek equality with God in the first place because it would have been inherent in him if he was God.

This is all sophistry, based on your lack of understanding. Jesus is fully God, even though He is a separate person. It's not an easy concept to understand.