Data On The Trinity

[Peterlag]

This is all sophistry, based on your lack of understanding. Jesus is fully God, even though He is a separate person. It's not an easy concept to understand.

There's nothing in the New Testament that is hard to understand. Nothing. God made it so simple that even a child could understand it. There's even a verse in 2 Corinthians 11:3...

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

I know you don’t, which is why yet again you completely missed what I have said. You are simply unable to follow the discussion, so it’s not surprising that you don’t believe the Bible reveals God as triune.

You also didn’t answer my questions: Do you believe in monotheism? Are you a monotheist?


Any names of or links to these scholars?


Of course Jesus was fully and truly human. But he is also fully and truly God. Both of these are clearly taught in the NT, particularly seen in Phil 2:5-8.

Wikipedia writes...

Monotheism is the belief that there is only one deity, an all-supreme being that is universally referred to as God. A distinction may be made between exclusive monotheism, in which the one God is a singular existence, and both inclusive and pluriform monotheism, in which multiple gods or godly forms are recognized, but each are postulated as extensions of the same God.

I do not know what a deity is. I never saw that word in Scripture. I also don't know what multiple gods are.

 

[Peterlag]

I know you don’t, which is why yet again you completely missed what I have said. You are simply unable to follow the discussion, so it’s not surprising that you don’t believe the Bible reveals God as triune.

You also didn’t answer my questions: Do you believe in monotheism? Are you a monotheist?


Any names of or links to these scholars?


Of course Jesus was fully and truly human. But he is also fully and truly God. Both of these are clearly taught in the NT, particularly seen in Phil 2:5-8.

You can use my name as one of the scholars since I also know there's only about 8 verses that Trinity folks piece together taken all out of context from all over the New Testament. There is no teaching of the Trinity in just one place. Nowhere.

 

[Free]

Wikipedia writes...

Monotheism is the belief that there is only one deity, an all-supreme being that is universally referred to as God. A distinction may be made between exclusive monotheism, in which the one God is a singular existence, and both inclusive and pluriform monotheism, in which multiple gods or godly forms are recognized, but each are postulated as extensions of the same God.

I do not know what a deity is. I never saw that word in Scripture. I also don't know what multiple gods are.

You simply can't be taken seriously anymore. Are you a monotheist? Yes or no is all it takes to answer.

You can use my name as one of the scholars since I also know there's only about 8 verses that Trinity folks piece together taken all out of context from all over the New Testament. There is no teaching of the Trinity in just one place. Nowhere.

No. You most definitely are not a scholar. You made a claim, now you need to provide evidence for that claim. Please provide links to or names of the scholars.

 

[jaybo]

There's nothing in the New Testament that is hard to understand. Nothing. God made it so simple that even a child could understand it. There's even a verse in 2 Corinthians 11:3...

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

If you don't understand that Jesus is fully God, then your understanding is clearly lacking.

And why are you posting in archaic Englyshe? Is that your example of something so simple that even a child could understand it?

 

[jaybo]

Wikipedia writes...

Monotheism is the belief that there is only one deity, an all-supreme being that is universally referred to as God. A distinction may be made between exclusive monotheism, in which the one God is a singular existence, and both inclusive and pluriform monotheism, in which multiple gods or godly forms are recognized, but each are postulated as extensions of the same God.

I do not know what a deity is. I never saw that word in Scripture. I also don't know what multiple gods are.

Colossians 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" NET, NIV, NRSV, and others

Multiple gods means "more than one deity".

 

[pierac]

If you don't understand that Jesus is fully God, then your understanding is clearly lacking.

And why are you posting in archaic Englyshe? Is that your example of something so simple that even a child could understand it?

What Bible are you reading???

At Pentecost...What was the first message to the church of the Christ....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Maybe you should send a text to Jesus and let Him know... he is God... and He does not need to hear from anyone!!!

Send one to John too... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Silly child.... These verses are ignored by you.... then you tell others their understanding is lacking.... really???

The other
Paul

 

[Free]

What Bible are you reading???

At Pentecost...What was the first message to the church of the Christ....

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Maybe you should send a text to Jesus and let Him know... he is God... and He does not need to hear from anyone!!!

Send one to John too... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Silly child.... These verses are ignored by you.... then you tell others their understanding is lacking.... really???

The other
Paul

None of these verses show that Jesus isn't also fully and truly God. The doctrine of the Trinity fully acknowledges that Jesus is also completely human, the God-man. Trinitarians take into account all that the Bible reveals about the nature of God. The one error is to either ignore all those verses that reveal Jesus is deity or use all the ones that speak of his humanity to overrule those that speak of his deity. The other error is to do the opposite, overruling or ignoring his humanity.

Both claims are true--Jesus is fully and truly deity; Jesus is fully and truly human--and we must hold both together and make sense of them, hence, why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that Scripture reveals.

 

[jaybo]

It is difficult for some people to understand how Jesus can be both fully God and fully human. God reveals His truth to all but apparently some either cannot believe Him or will not.

For me it's no great mystery. I am fully human, my wife is fully human, my children are fully human, and my grandchildren are fully human, yet we are different people. God the Father is fully God, Jesus the Son is fully God, the Holy Spirit is fully God. They are all God, yet they are different manifestations of deity.

 

[jaybo]

Another thought...

The more you post the further you drive me from Catholicism.

 

[Peterlag]

Colossians 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" NET, NIV, NRSV, and others

Multiple gods means "more than one deity".

I can't find the word "Deity" in Young's Analytical Concordance or E.W. Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance. The word is simply not there.

 

[Peterlag]

If you don't understand that Jesus is fully God, then your understanding is clearly lacking.

And why are you posting in archaic Englyshe? Is that your example of something so simple that even a child could understand it?

How to justify simple statements like nobody has seen God and that God cannot be tempted and yet Jesus was tempted?

 

[jaybo]

I can't find the word "Deity" in Young's Analytical Concordance or E.W. Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance. The word is simply not there.

Then change reference sources. As I posted, "deity" appears in multiple translations.

 

[jaybo]

How to justify simple statements like nobody has seen God and that God cannot be tempted and yet Jesus was tempted?

I have no idea what you're trying to say. No person has seen God the Father and God cannot be tempted. Easily understood. Jesus, in human form, was tempted but because He was sinless He didn't yield to temptation.

 

[pierac]

None of these verses show that Jesus isn't also fully and truly God. The doctrine of the Trinity fully acknowledges that Jesus is also completely human, the God-man. Trinitarians take into account all that the Bible reveals about the nature of God. The one error is to either ignore all those verses that reveal Jesus is deity or use all the ones that speak of his humanity to overrule those that speak of his deity. The other error is to do the opposite, overruling or ignoring his humanity.

Both claims are true--Jesus is fully and truly deity; Jesus is fully and truly human--and we must hold both together and make sense of them, hence, why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that Scripture reveals.

Deu 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him….39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deu 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

The New Testament clearly states Jesus has a God and Father, both before and after his resurrection. We know the Bible does not contradict.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

Jesus is God's chosen one! (Luk 9:35) God's supreme agent to man...

Act 2:22 "Men of Christian Forum.net, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Your following the teaching of men...
Paul

 

[Free]

Deu 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him….39 "Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deu 32:39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Right. That is monotheism, which is one of the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity.

The New Testament clearly states Jesus has a God and Father, both before and after his resurrection. We know the Bible does not contradict.

Jesus taught monotheism. Should we expect him to have taught something different? We should expect him, as truly and fully God and completely human, the God-man, to refer to the Father as God. This does not preclude Jesus from also being God.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit."

That is a misuse of that John 3:6. The context is that of being "born again" and has no bearing on the subject at hand.

The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories.

How, exactly? Are you not both body and spirit?

What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

You are not taking all into account. For example, look at Phil 2:5-8:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Some important points to make about this passage:

1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1--"the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The NIV has a clearer rendering of what is meant in verse 6: "being in very nature God." The Expositor's Greek Testament and M. R. Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) agree. That Paul is referring to the divinity of Christ is without question.

2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation. Again, the NIV brings out the meaning a bit better: "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."

3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself--not only was it he who did the emptying, he emptied himself of something. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind. Whatever Paul means here, and we must always be careful to not say more or less than what the Bible says, Jesus, as God Incarnate, still maintains his full deity in becoming truly and fully human.

4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men"--this is what John 1:14 is speaking of. Paul is contrasting Jesus's "being born in the likeness of men" with being in the "form of God."

5. Being found in "human form"--again, as opposed to his having been in "the form of God"--he "humbled himself by becoming obedient."

Paul's purpose is to show us the greatest example of humility, the humility of Christ, that we would follow that example. And what greater example of humility could there be than God coming to us as a human, becoming one of us?

The doctrine of the Incarnation is absolutely stunning and beautiful. It was the only way that salvation could be made possible. God coming to live as one of us, living perfectly, without sin, to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus is God's chosen one! (Luk 9:35) God's supreme agent to man...

This does not preclude Jesus from being God. As you have been shown numerous times, there are many passages that show Jesus is God. But you want to use the ones that show he is also human to contradict and overrule those that show his deity, without warrant for doing so.

The Son is coequal and coeternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, but each has a different role and responsibilities, particularly in relation to the salvation of humans. Remember, a difference in function does not indicate an inferiority of nature.

While Jesus is God's chosen one, look at what God says of Jesus:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Here, God is referring to the Son as Yahweh and Creator. Paul says that to call Jesus "Lord," is to call him Yahweh:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

That is, to be saved, one must confess Jesus is God.

Of course, in addition to all the above passages, we need to include John 1:1-18 and 20:28, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17 and 2:9-10, among others.

 

[Peterlag]

Then change reference sources. As I posted, "deity" appears in multiple translations.

It may be in translations, but it is not in the old Greek manuscripts.

 

[jaybo]

It may be in translations, but it is not in the old Greek manuscripts.

So you're claiming that most translations are wrong and you are right? Interesting! What are your translating qualifications? BTW, how many of the old Greek manuscripts do you own?

 

[Peterlag]

So you're claiming that most translations are wrong and you are right? Interesting! What are your translating qualifications? BTW, how many of the old Greek manuscripts do you own?

We believe with a lot of data to back it up that most of the translators were Trinity guys and they translated according to their beliefs. There are some Bibles that translated the "word" in John 1:1 as Christ. They wrote that right in there so a new person not knowing anything about the translators would read that and think yeah in the beginning was the Christ. I am only the messenger and my qualifications are not important. What is important is that the Catholics invented this Trinity a good 400 years after the apostles died.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God

 

[jaybo]

We believe with a lot of data to back it up that most of the translators were Trinity guys and they translated according to their beliefs. There are some Bibles that translated the "word" in John 1:1 as Christ. They wrote that right in there so a new person not knowing anything about the translators would read that and think yeah in the beginning was the Christ. I am only the messenger and my qualifications are not important. What is important is that the Catholics invented this Trinity a good 400 years after the apostles died.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God

The Jewish religion denies that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. They are still waiting for Him. BTW, I am a Jew. Jesus healed me in 1977 in the hospital and immediately I accepted Him as the Messiah (as Scripture predicted some of us would).

Again, what are your translating qualifications? And when you write "We believe with a lot of data to back it up...", who is "we"?