Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[jaybo]

Peter received the keys from christ

Matthew 16:19-23, "I will give you [future tense] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah. From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me, for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”

Peter received a lot more than the keys (which supposedly would be given to him at a future time). There is no indication that Peter was actually given the keys!!! I doubt that Jesus would give the keys to someone He called "Satan"!

 

[jaybo]

Only in his church the communion of saints

LOL!!! That is unScriptural!!!

I clearly understand why Catholics refute sola scriptura! They think that they can add anything that they want to what the Bible states and call it valid. But it isn't!!!

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

My big problem with Catholicism is the level of added on dogma and traditions. I think there’s beauty and truth to some of it…

But not all of it. A bit of leaven is deadly…

 

[Randy]

Only in his church the communion of saints

Jesus is the way to the Father.

 

[Randy]

What did Mathias or Thomas or Nathaniel or Andrew write?

Yes what is the gospel according to Mathias?

 

[Randy]

Explain Jn 3:5 water and spirit
Vs 22 they went and immediately baptized water baptism

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
[a] born from above

Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

Why does Jesus command that the successors of Moses in Matt 23:1 etc must be obeyed? It might help if you quoted Scripture in context. Matthew 23:1-12, "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’s seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you...

christianforums.net

Nicodemus
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Accordingly Jesus was speaking of being born from above by the Spirit in regard to this new birth. (Born of God)

This is cohesive with Pauls writings about those who belong to Christ.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life d because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

d 10 Or you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive

Test to see if your in the faith -Church fellowship, which is encouraged by the way, or the Spirit of Christ in you?

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

How do we receive this Spirit? by the Church or by grace through faith in Christ?
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.


Jesus to Paul

I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. '

 

[Randy]

What did Mathias or Thomas or Nathaniel or Andrew write?

The Apostles only sought, as they gleamed from the scriptures, "let another take his place", to replace the one and only one who abandoned His office. Judas not set a trend of succession. As pointed out a office that extended beyond the life of the body as one who would sit on one of 12 thrones judging the tribes of Israel. Were the other 12 apostles replaced when they died?

We know from Paul's letters God set him aside from the womb. (birth) So God already had "HIS" replacement chosen not by works or someone from the beginning of Christs ministry but by His sovereignty and grace who would learn what testimony to state by revelation from Christ Jesus. As Peter stated of Paul who writes from the wisdom God gave Him in all his letters.

The Apostles chose 2 candidates, with their criteria, prayed then cast lots. They did not know about Paul at that time and failed to wait for an answer to their prayers. This is in their favor "their motive was pure" and again "they could not know about Paul at that time"

I don't hold to "Apostolic" succession. Any selected Pastor or leader of a congregation should faithfully teach and preach accurately from the written testimony which in regard to the gentile churches and the one imprisoned in Rome who furthered that gospel from prison in Rome was "Paul". Christs choice to carry His message to the gentiles. Rome was of the gentiles.

 

[rstrats]

Notice how NO ONE is called a child of Mary, save Jesus. There is NO scripture which identifies another as a son (or daughter) of Mary.

How about John 19:26-27?

 

[GodsGrace]

How about John 19:26-27?

Who was Jesus speaking to exactly?

 

[rstrats]

Who was Jesus speaking to exactly?

His mother and His mother's son.

 

[donadams]

Christ changed Peter's name alright: to Satan! Four verses after the verse you cite, Jesus said in Matthew 16:23, "But he [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me, for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.” It’s Christ who does this!

No he was speaking to satan who was using Peter, Christ already declared Peter blessed now you declare him evil? Matt 16:17

 

[donadams]

It might help if you quoted Scripture in context. Matthew 23:1-12, "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’s seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it, but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others, but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. [sounds like Catholic priests!] They do all their deeds to be seen by others, for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. [and wear ornate costumes] They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to have people call them rabbi. [or father!] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers and sisters. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father, the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted."

There is no better example in Scripture of the Catholic priesthood!

Same authority taken from them Matt 21:42 given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 eph Jn 29:21 2:20same requirement to obey

Most Scripture? Which parts of Scripture don't mean what they say?

Romans 3:4, "By no means! Although every human is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written, “So that you may be justified in your words and you will prevail when you go to trial.”

"The church has authority from Christ" is true if, by the church you mean the body of Christ. As I have said before, there is no mention of the Catholic denomination in the entire Bible. If you are referring to the disciples, they were all Jews!

matt 3:5 not every single person went out, generalization
Also rom 3:23

 

[donadams]

LOL!!! How condescending of you!

Paul said to, be all things to all people

 

[donadams]

No, it is not. But it s not the province of a class of people who make the claim to be Catholic priests. God speaks to whomever He chooses, including all those who pray to Him for guidance and understanding.

There is no authority to make “new doctrine” only to safeguard from all error “Protestantism” the sacred deposit of truth! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

 

[donadams]

Explained what exactly? As I wrote earlier, the only person (other than the devil) whom Jesus called Satan was Peter! Matthew 16:23

Peter was one of the apostles and a seriously flawed man. Would Jesus actually give the keys to His kingdom to a person whom He called "Satan", and a stumbling block, and who denied Him three times? Of course not!

And after this happened, Peter made a fool of himself in Galatia, and was called for his behavior by Paul.

So the person whom you claim was the founder of your denomination was a seriously flawed man.

All before the power of the spirit at Pentecost and it’s not true Jesus said the father of the jews was the devil

 

[donadams]

Total nonsense!!!

Acts 42 doesn't negate the value of Scripture. It was quoted extensively by Jesus Himself and the apostles. It's only your denomination that teaches that their credo and beliefs are more important than the very words of God!

And if you're actually going to quote Scripture (which you think is secondary to what your denomination teaches), then do so correctly, i.e., in context. " First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20-21 So the verse is clearly talking about the origin of true prophecy. Men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. Why are you motivated to distort the very words of God??? Taking a phrase out of context and applying it to people reading and understanding the Bible is madness!!! Do you think you are dealing with morons???

And you justifying the authority of the church by citing the apostles and applying it to your denomination is madness! There was no Catholic denomination when the Bible was written, so any mention of the church in the Bible was referring to the first believers. As I have said before, all the apostles were Jews, as were the great majority (by far) of the early believers. Jews, get it? Not Catholics!
The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority” does not deny the authority of God, Christ, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! Whom do you think inspired every author of the Biblical "books"? The answer is obvious!!!

And if you are going to continue to debate, stop citing verses of the Bible (unless you can finally admit that the Bible is God's Word. Otherwise, you are citing an authority that you claim isn't an authority!!!

And your writing "we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15" are a) all out of context and b) are using the Bible as the authority, which directly contradicts your phony doctrine.

If you don't accept the Bible as the word of God, why do you hypocritically cite it as truth?

Of course the Bible is the word of God all 73 books as the church declared
But

Isaiah 20:22-25 (in context!), " “On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. [ Authority given to Eliakim to be a "father to the Jews -- only] I will place on his {Eliakim's -- only] shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open. I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his ancestral house. And they will hang on him the whole weight of his ancestral house [the OT Jews], the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. On that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way; it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will perish, for the Lord has spoken.”

He was a "father" to the OT Jews only. And in the New Testament, after Christ came, it clearly says "And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father, the one in heaven." So much for your denomination calling priests "father", going directly against what Jesus said!

the kingdom continues in the new covenant Matt 23:1 the successors of Moses has the keys but taken from them Matt 21:43 given to Peter Matt 16:18
Peter represents Christ as head of the church on earth, vicar of Christ means Christ is acting thru peter

 

[donadams]

Are you out of your mind?

Your bizarre post is a meaningless rant!

For your education, the five "solas" state that Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone."

If you want to educate yourself (which I find doubtful!), you might want to read about the fives "solas" of the Protestant reformation (which saved Christ's church from the Catholic heresies!), here is an excellent article: https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/the-five-solas-of-the-protestant-reformation.html

Here is a brief excerpt (with my emphases): "The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century changed Christianity forever. Roused to action by the corruption and abuses they saw in the Roman Catholic church of the time, visionary pastors and leaders like Martin Luther and John Calvin spearheaded a movement that transformed Christianity and eventually led to the emergence of the Protestant denominations that exist today.

The Reformers were guided by the conviction that the church of their day had drifted away from the essential, original teachings of Christianity, especially in regard to what it was teaching about salvation—how people can be forgiven of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and receive eternal life with God. The Reformation sought to re-orient Christianity on the original message of Jesus and the early church."

Which of these so called reformers was an apostle with authority from Christ?
Where does scripture say you have authority to have a reform?
What was reformed, you could hardly call rejection of Christ and his church and starting “new churches” a reformation!

You said it again: “Bible alone” or Bible only authority, which would exclude God, Christ, HS, apostles, the Bible alone really means a book on the table unopened, cos if you open or read it you are adding to scripture!

The church has authority to teach and sa all men! Matt 28:19 and does not require scripture to know truth for it was revealed to the church by Christ in person for three years!

 

[donadams]

Don Adams (and others) keep misinterpreting the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Here is what it actually means...

The Scriptures are our ultimate and trustworthy authority for faith and practice. This doesn't mean that the Bible is the only pl;ace where truth is found, but it does mean that everything else we learn about God and His world, and all other authorities, should be interpreted in light of Scripture. The Bible gives us everything we need for our theology.

Every word of the 66 books of the Bible is inspired by God's Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also helps us to understand and obey Scripture.

(Except from "The Five Solas -- Points from the Past that Should Matter to You). (with my emphases)

That is what Sola Scriptura means, not what Don and others say it means!

How do we know it’s 66 books with missing chapters and not 73 books???

 

[donadams]

It might help if you quoted Scripture in context. Matthew 23:1-12, "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’s seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it, but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others, but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. [sounds like Catholic priests!] They do all their deeds to be seen by others, for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. [and wear ornate costumes] They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to have people call them rabbi. [or father!] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers and sisters. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father, the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted."

There is no better example in Scripture of the Catholic priesthood!

Call no man father? Really?
Do you think this is absolute or just a rebuke of the spiritual pride of the original fundamentalists?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:22 Moses said unto the fathers…

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.


Jn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Jesus does not rebuke her for calling men father!


Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 Tim 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father…

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

 

[donadams]

Are you out of your mind?

Your bizarre post is a meaningless rant!

For your education, the five "solas" state that Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone."

If you want to educate yourself (which I find doubtful!), you might want to read about the fives "solas" of the Protestant reformation (which saved Christ's church from the Catholic heresies!), here is an excellent article: https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/the-five-solas-of-the-protestant-reformation.html

Here is a brief excerpt (with my emphases): "The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century changed Christianity forever. Roused to action by the corruption and abuses they saw in the Roman Catholic church of the time, visionary pastors and leaders like Martin Luther and John Calvin spearheaded a movement that transformed Christianity and eventually led to the emergence of the Protestant denominations that exist today.

The Reformers were guided by the conviction that the church of their day had drifted away from the essential, original teachings of Christianity, especially in regard to what it was teaching about salvation—how people can be forgiven of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and receive eternal life with God. The Reformation sought to re-orient Christianity on the original message of Jesus and the early church."

Drifted away really? Shall not prevail! Matt 16:18-19

Christ alone? Really? What about?

John 5:24
Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.