Doubt on Christian basics

[wayseer]

Meaning that it wasn't a reference to actual fruit trees (of life and forbidden knowledge) or an actual talking serpent? It was a symbolic teaching meant to point to something deeper?

... just as the idea of evil is somehow genetic is also 'symbolic'.

 

[samfaps]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

if children are not born with a sinful nature, why was Jesus born of a virgin.?

 

[wayseer]

And therein lies the conundrum - Jesus has to be born of a virgin only if you accept evil is genetic. We now know that evil is not genetic for the simply reason we are not all evil.

But the real issue is - how can humanity have anything to do with a God that is not part of humanity? Back to Athanasius - God became human in order that humanity might become like God. The whole 'original sin' doctrine is nothing more than a cop out for certain types of human behaviour. We know what to do - we know the way home.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi all,
I just wanted to ask why do we have to be saved?I know that we are fallen men, etc, but the reason we are fallen is because of a mistake adam and eve committed which is none of our fault, why was the sin passed on?
But for that, we would not be born with a sinful nature, hence wont need to be saved.
It seems as if God cut our hands so that we buy his band-aid.
awaiting your responses,
Thank You!

Men suffer the consequence of Adam's sin but men do not inherit another person's sins just as one person does not inherit righteousness from another person. Abel was righteous in Heb 11:4. Did Abel's offspring inherit his righteousness? No. Did Abel's offsring inherit his sins? No. Paul said of Jacob and Esau in Rom 9 "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,". The twins were in a neutral, innocent state having done neither good or evil. So one is not a sinner until he commits sins as one is not righteous until he does righteousness.

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Note the verses does NOT say "for that all have inherited Adam's sin". So men are sinners not because they have inherited sin from someone else but men are sinners for they have of their own will chosen to sin. Sin is not something forced upon men agaisnt his will at conception. John said sin is transgression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4. There is no law the newly conceived have transgressed (no lying, stealing, murder, etc) to make them to be sinners. So men are not born toally depraved. If God formed a totally depraved spirit with in me, Zech 12:1 then that is not my fault but God then is culpable for my depravity. So we would have God forming me to be a depraved person agaisnt my will then God punishes me for being the depraved person He made me to be. This goes completely against the nature of God.

As far as what men must do to be saved, man must believe, Jn 3:16; repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Matt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16 and then conditionally live a faithful life unto death to receive the crown of life, Rev 2:10

 

[Davies]

And therein lies the conundrum - Jesus has to be born of a virgin only if you accept evil is genetic. We now know that evil is not genetic for the simply reason we are not all evil.

He wayseer,

What did Jesus teach His disciples about giving?
Matthew 7:11

New King James Version (NKJV)

11If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!


And if you're tempted to think, well they weren't born with an evil nature, then here is Scripture for your consideration.


Romans 5:12-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.



This is what Paul is teaching. Sinned entered the world through Adam's sin, and the reason we die today is because of Adam's sin, not to mention our own. Now, Ernest T. Bass said, "So men are sinners not because they have inherited sin from someone else but men are sinners for they have of their own will chosen to sin." I actually would agree with this statement; but because of our sin nature that we inherited from Adam, we will die because, "even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam," death reigned proving they died because of the nature inherited.

But the real issue is - how can humanity have anything to do with a God that is not part of humanity? Back to Athanasius - God became human in order that humanity might become like God. The whole 'original sin' doctrine is nothing more than a cop out for certain types of human behaviour. We know what to do - we know the way home.

Haven't you read Romans 5:19?
Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


You should be glad God provided redemption they way He did, because if we have to earn our way to heaven by the good deeds we do, then... don't trip or make any mistakes. You either stand in the righteousness of Jesus that was imputed to you when you repented and put your trust in Jesus, or you stand in your own righteousness, which isn't good enough.
Romans 3:23

New King James Version (NKJV)

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,



Notice all have sinned, past tense, and fall, present tense.

- Davies

 

[wayseer]

If you take these texts as somehow proof that evil is genetically transmitted from Adam then I cannot help you.

Adam was not a person - he was not human. In Hebrew 'adam' means earth.

What you have alluded to is is the idea that humanity is somehow contaminated and cannot have anything to do with the Holy. Indeed there is value in this concept - which is the reason why Jesus had a lot of relationships with so-called 'sinners'. It was believed that anyone with a physical of mental deficiency was 'unclean' and could not have access to God. Jesus put paid to that idea. You need to catch up.

 

[Davies]

Hi wayseer,

Sometimes a person can wish he had the ability of Jesus to discern what was in a man's heart, so he would keep himself from him. Why do you call yourself a Christian if you don't believe Christian teaching?

- Davies

 

[Yah1]

If you take these texts as somehow proof that evil is genetically transmitted from Adam then I cannot help you.

Adam was not a person - he was not human. In Hebrew 'adam' means earth.

What you have alluded to is is the idea that humanity is somehow contaminated and cannot have anything to do with the Holy. Indeed there is value in this concept - which is the reason why Jesus had a lot of relationships with so-called 'sinners'. It was believed that anyone with a physical of mental deficiency was 'unclean' and could not have access to God. Jesus put paid to that idea. You need to catch up.

Yes wayseer, Adam WAS earth, the dust of the ground, past tense..
until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Genesis 2:7

Jesus had relationships with sinners but didn't sin.
It's not about physical or mental anything. It's about what's in your heart.

 

[samfaps]

Ask the Church - they wrote that bit.



Good point. After years of research and study my conclusions is that Adam and Eve is a story - not fact.



The only band-aid on offer is the one promoted by the Church. Learn to differentiate between Churchainity and Christianity.

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[samfaps]

I'm not sure I get you...........

 

[samfaps]

So men are sinners not because they have inherited sin from someone else but men are sinners for they have of their own will chosen to sin.

''All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God'' Did Paul predict that all will choose to sin?
The answer seems an obvious NO

 

[samfaps]

''Permitting the fall of mankind is not equivalent to directly causing it, wouldn't you say?'' - ivdavid

That is not the point, the issue is why are we suffering due to Adam's sin?

 

[smaller]

''Permitting the fall of mankind is not equivalent to directly causing it, wouldn't you say?'' - ivdavid

That is not the point, the issue is why are we suffering due to Adam's sin?

This present earth is His Planting Ground, the ground of our present bodies. Follow the planting of the natural man, Adam, explained by Paul thusly:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made -

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

''All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God'' Did Paul predict that all will choose to sin?
The answer seems an obvious NO

Hi,

In the context of Rom 3 Paul said "What then? are we (Jews) better [than they (Gentiles)]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they (Jew and Gentile) are all (Jew and Gentile) under sin;.... For all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

The word "all" here is not a reference to every single person universally for that would include Christ who did not sin and newly concieved/newly born who are not able to sin. In the context Paul is speaking about the two groups Jew and Gentile which made up all of mankind for one was either a Jew or non-Jew. Much like when Joel prophecied that God's spirit would pour out upon ALL flesh, Joel 2:28 All did not mean every person universally but upon Jew (apostles in Acts 2) and Gentile (Cornelius in Acts 10). Since there have been Jews that have sinned and Gentiles that have sinned then all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned with the two groups Jew and Gentile representative of all mankind. All (Jew and Gentile) had sinned before Paul penned the Roman epistle.

 

[heymikey80]

some seem to have misunderstood me,
I'm basically asking why do we have this in-born tendency to sin (which is causing us all this problem), we did not have the free will to chose weather we want that sinful nature which separates us from god, only Adam and Eve were given such a free will, they were made upright but chose the wrong path, but we are NOT made upright, we apparently need a saviour for none of our fault.
Yes we do sin, but the reason is that we are born with a sinful nature for none of our fault.

The problem is that retribution for evil is punishment. If you built something that you didn't intend for evil (which God didn't), but that changes itself to become evil and to build and spread more evil, the solution to that problem is retribution against all the evil that it commits. Doesn't matter if the "downstream evil" didn't have some kind of a libertarian choice. It does matter that the evil is retributed and fixed.

Outside libertarian ethics intent rarely factors into moral judgment. The fact is, libertarian ethics has this "back door" called neglect, where intent is suppressed by the fact that the result is evil. So even libertarian ethics doesn't demand intent: rather, it requires a level of intent, and anyone without it, is also evil.

So you didn't intentionally commit evil? Seriously, in many cases you did! Christianity isn't talking fatalism, it's talking about a corruption of the human spirit, the human will that considers, desires, and often accepts evil in its choices. But even granted that, neglect is an evil. So willfulness doesn't factor as a blanket requirement for culpability.

Modern ethical theories, libertarian ethics, and emotivism, they're all so faulty as to be easy to reject. Modern ethical thought went into the Dark Ages a few hundred years ago. In my opinion it hasn't got out. If you'd like to see the basis for this opinion, pick up a copy of Alasdair MacIntyre's "After Virtue".

 

[elijah23]

Hi all,
I just wanted to ask why do we have to be saved?I know that we are fallen men, etc, but the reason we are fallen is because of a mistake adam and eve committed which is none of our fault, why was the sin passed on?
But for that, we would not be born with a sinful nature, hence wont need to be saved.
It seems as if God cut our hands so that we buy his band-aid.
awaiting your responses,
Thank You!

Satan could torment us forever for each sin we've committed. We need to be saved from that. Jesus saved us from that when he died on the cross, I believe.

 

[joep222]

Hi all,
I just wanted to ask why do we have to be saved?I know that we are fallen men, etc, but the reason we are fallen is because of a mistake adam and eve committed which is none of our fault, why was the sin passed on?
But for that, we would not be born with a sinful nature, hence wont need to be saved.
It seems as if God cut our hands so that we buy his band-aid.
awaiting your responses,
Thank You!

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Romans 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 3:24-25 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. (12) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[joep222]

Satan could torment us forever for each sin we've committed. We need to be saved from that. Jesus saved us from that when he died on the cross, I believe.

Satan does not punish, torment nor reign in Hell. He himself will be under punishment and has no authority in Hell.

Jesus Christ saved us from the righteous and holy wrath of the Father, to those who repent and trust in the completed work of Jesus Christ.

 

[John 8:32]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Romans 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 3:24-25 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. (12) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This and...

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[wayseer]

I'm not sure I get you...........

The whole aspect of 'sin' is difficult. The bottom of the garden question is - If God created what was 'good' how come there is so much bad stuff about?

Job asked the same question - and his answer is still the only real answer we have.

But the problem of sin has escalated when the Church started to develop certain doctrines which Jesus had nothing or little to do with.

The whole aspect of the sacrificial system given by Moses and in operation at the Temple at the time of Jesus was to pave the way so that humanity could access God. That it had fallen into corruption and decay is evident from the historical sources as well as from the lips of Jesus. Jesus simply bypassed the system while adhering to the 'theology' of the sacrificial system.

The way was no open for anyone to come to God without have to go through the 'system'.

But the Church made another 'system' just as debilitating as the Temple system. That system is now recognized at 'Churchianity'. In other words, follow the system of the church and you will be OK with God.

I don't buy what the Church is selling - even though I go to church and take an active role in the service. And my church does not understand me so I can accept that others find it difficult to follow my line of thought.

Sinners are not necessarily those who have broken some law. Sinner, as Jesus makes clear, were those, who though no fault of their own, did not have access to God (read, Temple/Church). These people simple where deemed outsiders. People who had a mental of physical disability. People who were sick. Women were 'outsiders', even greater outsiders when menstruating. And of course, slaves and gentiles had no hope at all. Jesus shattered this concept. We all have access to God regardless of our 'station' in life.

Historically, the Church reintroduced the sacrificial system by the back door so to speak. You had to be 'saved'. You had to be baptised. You had to take the Eucharist. You have to accept the Creed. More rules, more laws, more restrictions and in the process turned Jesus into something else. The sad fact is that if Jesus came back today he would not be allowed into church.