Explain Galatians 2:15-21

[digging]

Dear Mitspa,

I have gone back reading over some of your posts and I found a comment you made that has been helpful and I think we are not as far apart as it might seem.

You said, "Now a believer sins? he is sinning against Christ and the law of Christ, NOT THE LAW OF MOSES!"

This topic is really rather deep and we need to carefully think about everything related. I would like to say that perhaps when we sin we are sinning again both, because contained within this 'law of Christ' are the basic laws given to Moses.

Why do I say that?

Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY ';28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

What is Jesus really trying to teach us here?

Righteousness can't be pressed into us from the outside, but rather starts deep within the heart. The law given to Moses was the tutor leading to Christ, how and why? Could it be to help show men that wanted to obey the law the true way for that obedience to happen? First they just needed to want to obey....then Christ showed that the key is far deeper and the power to honor the law is through the spirit not through the flesh. The fruitage of truly loving and trusting God leads to all laws being honored.

Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Digging

 

[digging]

Dear Ryan,

"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach."

Recall that the tree of life was also within Adams reach until he was put out of the garden.....

Why was it so difficult for him it listen to that single commandment in the beginning??

Digging

 

[Ryan]

Dear Ryan,

"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach."

Recall that the tree of life was also within Adams reach until he was put out of the garden.....

Why was it so difficult for him it listen to that single commandment in the beginning??

Digging

Wow. I had never thought of what degree of difficulty it would have been to not of eaten from the tree. How many of us have been tempted to do something by somebody even though it was questionable and maybe sin? And we still ahead with it anyways and did it anyways. God has always laid down choices for us. His way to the path of eternity, or disobey and the path of death,
Genesis 2:15-17 "Adonai, God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. 16 Adonai, God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.” He's always told us the consequences. Adam must (my assumption) have known the eternal consequences when he did so but was solely living in the moment.

It must have been a hard choice I think, but one knowing full well the consequences. God knows we make many choices to obey or disobey, but he always lets us know the consequences, good and bad. My weakness has been the bottle. My destruction will be the bottle if I allow it to control my life. I am fully aware of that. I make a choice, no matter how hard it is some day. Thank God we have a God who will help us through when we are struggling with our choices and come to him in submission to help us with such.

Deuteronomy 30:15:20 "15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity, and death and [u]adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

 

[Mitspa]

To bad whaen all rational argument fails, one results to questioning their salvation or demonic activity in their life. I haven't accused you of so, please grant me the same respect please. The heart of grace is not to obey to be saved, but I obey because I am saved.

If you believe God was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then you'll believe he had one law, one rule and one set of instructions for all mankind. From the beginning of creation, till now. It would be the same as parents having one set of rules for your own biological kids, then having a different set of rules for when a foster or adoptive child moves in. How fair would that be?

David, a man after God's own heart wrote Psalm 119 which is a Psalm for the Law/Torah. What does he say in Psalm 119:144 "Your instruction is righteous forever; give me understanding, and I will live" He's talking about the Torah being righteous forever. Not till when the Messiah comes. Psalm 119:152 "Long ago I learned from your instruction that you established it forever, Psalm 119:160 The main thing about your word is that it’s true; and all your just rulings last forever."

Would God ever give us anything less then perfect to live by? Of course not, that's ridiculous. Psalm 19:8 "The Torah[Law] of ADONAI is perfect, restoring the inner person. The instruction of ADONAI is sure, making wise the thoughtless." Explain to me how when someone now wants to follow the Torah/Law, they now have demonic activity in their life?

I believe that Jesus Christ is the express image of God! that He is the same yesterday, today and forever!

So God gave the law for its purpose, That has been shown in the New Testament the epistles of Paul. Now PAUL SAID that all men would be judged by his gospel. That if any man preached another gospel other than the gospel he preached, they were cursed! I did not write that, God had that written!

now anyone who attempts to put a "believer" under law, is a false teacher. To deny the New Testament truth is to deny the very purpose of the law.

Sorry I did not make the rules! God did!

Now I have made no charge against you, I charge false doctrine as being false!

 

[Mitspa]

Dear Mitspa,

I have gone back reading over some of your posts and I found a comment you made that has been helpful and I think we are not as far apart as it might seem.

You said, "Now a believer sins? he is sinning against Christ and the law of Christ, NOT THE LAW OF MOSES!"

This topic is really rather deep and we need to carefully think about everything related. I would like to say that perhaps when we sin we are sinning again both, because contained within this 'law of Christ' are the basic laws given to Moses.

Why do I say that?

Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY ';28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

What is Jesus really trying to teach us here?

Righteousness can't be pressed into us from the outside, but rather starts deep within the heart. The law given to Moses was the tutor leading to Christ, how and why? Could it be to help show men that wanted to obey the law the true way for that obedience to happen? First they just needed to want to obey....then Christ showed that the key is far deeper and the power to honor the law is through the spirit not through the flesh. The fruitage of truly loving and trusting God leads to all laws being honored.

Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Digging

Thank you Digging for trying to hear my points!

I would explain it this way? That although the Old Testament law was given before Christ came in the flesh, the Law was a shadow or picture of the Spirit that we would receive by Christ. Paul says that the Law is SPIRITUAL, BUT MAN IS CARNAL.
now the letter demanded something from man that he could not fulfill. That why we walk in the spirit and fufill the righteous requirments we see in the law!

example? Because Christ has taught me to love and give from love, how could I steal from someone I desire to bless? How can I covet what my brother has when I desire to see him blessed?
But this Love is only known when we accept the abounding grace and FREE GIFT of righteousness. Jesus said those who are forgiven much, love much!

So our LOVE WALK, IS DEPENDENT UPON OUR SENSE OF FORGIVNESS IN CHRIST.

there is much more to say but I hope you see the truth of my point?

 

[for_his_glory]

I was not the One who said EVERY JOT AND TITTLE! Jesus said it and means exactly what He said. Paul made the same point over and over! That if one attempts to be justified by ANY PART of the law, They must keep ALL THE LAW! now the Law had one pupose? To MAKE ALL SINNERS, that all men might come to Christ and be justfied by faith.

This point is so clear and evident that I cannot allow that any honest person cannot see this apart from being blinded by a religious suducing spirit, as described in scripture by Paul.

WHAT!!!! the laws purpose was to make us sinners!!!! What god are you following? The laws were given to keep us in line with Gods will, but it only exposed our sin by not keeping all the law.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So once again you believe heaven and earth has passed away and Jesus has now fulfilled all our moral obligations that keep us in Gods will of love?
The point is clear that heaven and earth hasn't passed away as of yet and Christ has not returned so I would suggest you go read this verse again and again until you get it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I would ask you?
You claim to be justified by faith in Christ? then how can you be a sinner by the Law of Moses? Thats impossible!

Thats the point Paul is making in Gal.
John says it this way in 1 John 3 whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor Known Him.
He who sins is of the devil. Whoever is born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in Him and he cannot sin.

Its not biblically possible to be a sinner by the law of moses, and to be justified by faith in Christ.

Now a believer sins? he is sinning against Christ and the law of Christ, NOT THE LAW OF MOSES!

now if you want to have an honest point by point discussion? I will be glad to do that! But I will not hear some made-up doctrine about "moral law" and other things that some have tried to bring forward as truth, when they know the scriptures are in clear conflict with what they are trying to affirm.

Now the gospel is very simple when understood with humility and simple faith.

Paul said that just as satan deceived eve, that some would be fail to hold to the simplicty of Christ.

How did satan deceive eve? DID GOD REALLY SAY?

yes he said it!
That we are justified freely by His Grace.
That those who receive the abundance of grace and the FREE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life with Christ.

That He became sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

That unless one RECEIVES the Kingdom of God as a little child that they cannot enter into the Kingdom.

I have many more! and await an honest discussion with any who wants to be set free from sin?

FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE.

THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW!

Mitspa your problem is that you have never read all 613 laws as if you did you would see that those moral laws I have posted several times, plus the ten commandments are part of the 613. Go read them as you can search the net to read them all, which are also in Leviticus and Exodus.

 

[Ryan]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the express image of God! that He is the same yesterday, today and forever!

So God gave the law for its purpose, That has been shown in the New Testament the epistles of Paul. Now PAUL SAID that all men would be judged by his gospel. That if any man preached another gospel other than the gospel he preached, they were cursed! I did not write that, God had that written!

now anyone who attempts to put a "believer" under law, is a false teacher. To deny the New Testament truth is to deny the very purpose of the law.

Sorry I did not make the rules! God did!

Now I have made no charge against you, I charge false doctrine as being false!

No matter how many times you say it, no matter how many tones you use, it is not true. No truer then green is red and red is green. No matter how many times you say it, does not make it so.

Paul, Paul, Paul. Poor guy can't get a break. You argue that he preached against the Law/Torah, I argue he preached for it and numerous writings of his affirm for it. While, yes, some do appear to contradict against the observance of the Law. But what did he practice? I could do a write up of Paul here, but I found a great essay that takes about 20 minutes to read, but is entirely based and supported by scripture. Who woulda thought, backing up thoughts with scripture?

http://www.fogwhistle.ca/acts/follow.html

Can't wait for your comments Mitspa.

 

[Mitspa]

No matter how many times you say it, no matter how many tones you use, it is not true. No truer then green is red and red is green. No matter how many times you say it, does not make it so.

Paul, Paul, Paul. Poor guy can't get a break. You argue that he preached against the Law/Torah, I argue he preached for it and numerous writings of his affirm for it. While, yes, some do appear to contradict against the observance of the Law. But what did he practice? I could do a write up of Paul here, but I found a great essay that takes about 20 minutes to read, but is entirely based and supported by scripture. Who woulda thought, backing up thoughts with scripture?

http://www.fogwhistle.ca/acts/follow.html

Can't wait for your comments Mitspa.

Well I do not need to read anything other than the scriptures!

Satan uses the same trick over and over? Did God really say?
Now I have read and know the truth, as Paul wrote IT IS EVIDENT THAT NO MAN CAN BE JUSTIFIED BY ANY PART OF THE LAW.
that those who attempt to be justified by any part of the law, have fallen from grace and have been cut-off from Christ.

This is the testimony of the New Covenant, it is EVIDENT!

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa your problem is that you have never read all 613 laws as if you did you would see that those moral laws I have posted several times, plus the ten commandments are part of the 613. Go read them as you can search the net to read them all, which are also in Leviticus and Exodus.

i am justified freely by grace through faith in Christ! Why would I go look at a set of rules that Christ died to set me free from?
I have been given the Holy Spirit, and the Love of God has been shed abroad in my heart. I do not need a list of rules but liberty from religious yokes. I am a living epistle of Christ, I am a living temple of God! His law is in my my heart, Love fulfills every thing ever written! So why go put myself in bondage to a list of dead rules?

No I love as He loves me. This is all the law!

 

[John 8:32]

I would disagree and say the foundations were from the Torah, Genesis - Deuteronomy, the Prophets, Psalms. Jesus is God so how could his teachings not have been based on his very own Word?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth

I stand corrected! I was thinking in a narrow line of the New Testament itself and the order of the books. What I said was incorrect, the foundation of the New Testament is the Law and the Prophets (as well as the Writings). Thanks.

 

[John 8:32]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the express image of God! that He is the same yesterday, today and forever!

So God gave the law for its purpose,

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

That has been shown in the New Testament the epistles of Paul. Now PAUL SAID that all men would be judged by his gospel. That if any man preached another gospel other than the gospel he preached, they were cursed! I did not write that, God had that written!

He had this written also...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The problem is not with the Law, it is with us.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

How did Paul feel about the Law?

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

now anyone who attempts to put a "believer" under law, is a false teacher. To deny the New Testament truth is to deny the very purpose of the law.

Sorry I did not make the rules! God did!

With your last statement I agree...

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

And I beleive you quoted this elsewhere...

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Since Christ wrote these Commandments with His own finger, I suspect that He still upholds them today.

Now I have made no charge against you, I charge false doctrine as being false!

We are commanded to live sinless lives (not perfect, but rather striving to not sin, to obey)...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And sin is still...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[John 8:32]

i am justified freely by grace through faith in Christ! Why would I go look at a set of rules that Christ died to set me free from?
I have been given the Holy Spirit, and the Love of God has been shed abroad in my heart. I do not need a list of rules but liberty from religious yokes. I am a living epistle of Christ, I am a living temple of God! His law is in my my heart, Love fulfills every thing ever written! So why go put myself in bondage to a list of dead rules?

No I love as He loves me. This is all the law!

Well, lemme see here...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Mitspa]

Well, lemme see here...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Yes it always helps to read the whole of the epistle?
And this is His commandments; That we believe on His Son and love as He gave commandment.

You guys always seem to pick part of everything and cover-up the whole truth! Why is that?

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS!
seems you all break every law of God, without fear of judgment!

 

[John 8:32]

Yes it always helps to read the whole of the epistle?
And this is His commandments; That we believe on His Son and love as He gave commandment.

You guys always seem to pick part of everything and cover-up the whole truth! Why is that?

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS!
seems you all break every law of God, without fear of judgment!

***sarcasm alert*** There you go quoting Commandments that are done away. ***end sarcasm alert***

Who gave the Ten Commandments?

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Well, no one has seen or heard the Father at any time...

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Who was this that Adam heard and talked to?

No one has seen the Father's shape (John 5:37), then who was this...

Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Notice he is in italics, means it was not in the original. Jesus said that He was I AM. This is why they went backward and fell to the ground. They knew who I AM was.

Christ appeared to Abraham...

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

It was Christ who led Israel...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

This same Christ also spoke the Ten Commandments...

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

And He spoke these words...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And these...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Which ones? The very ones He, Himself spoke on Mt. Sinai...

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[WIP]

Are any of us an authority without fault? Might I suggest that we consider toning down some of the arrogance of our posts please?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

the way i see it, opponents of Paul are saying that relying on Christ alone empties the law of any meaning.
Paul answers by saying that adding the law to Christ empties his death on the cross of any meaning.
What is your take?

If you all look to see how I started this post, I think you'll all agree you have answered it for me and I thank you.

But for all of you to continue on like this, I find it to be unfruitful.

 

[for_his_glory]

i am justified freely by grace through faith in Christ! Why would I go look at a set of rules that Christ died to set me free from?
I have been given the Holy Spirit, and the Love of God has been shed abroad in my heart. I do not need a list of rules but liberty from religious yokes. I am a living epistle of Christ, I am a living temple of God! His law is in my my heart, Love fulfills every thing ever written! So why go put myself in bondage to a list of dead rules?

No I love as He loves me. This is all the law!

You have no argument then against something you know nothing about or even set free from as you have decided to throw the whole OT in the garbage can and only accept that of Paul as being your God. How sad is that and may God have mercy on your soul for rejecting His word as you chose to pick and choose which scriptures fit you and ignore the rest.

 

[Mitspa]

You have no argument then against something you know nothing about or even set free from as you have decided to throw the whole OT in the garbage can and only accept that of Paul as being your God. How sad is that and may God have mercy on your soul for rejecting His word as you chose to pick and choose which scriptures fit you and ignore the rest.

I did not have it written!

All men will be judged By Pauls gospel, if any preach another gospel EVEN AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN? they are cursed!

Now either Paul was trying to make all men SUBMIT to his doctrine or he was lying?
i believe he was Gods chosen vessel, and all men must heed his words! All doctrine that does not submit to his gospel? is false doctrine and is cursed by God.

Now that is the scriptures, if it seems unkind or too harsh for some? take it up with God! I am just reporting what the scriptures say! sorry if it dont tickle somebodys "itching ears"

 

[digging]

I have been thinking about this debate since last night and I have thought of a question for everyone here. Let`s go back to the Garden of Eden with the two trees, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

IF Adam and Eve had not chosen the tree of knowledge and had rather begun to eat of the tree of life after eating from the good tree could they have then also taken from the tree of knowledge later, I don`t believe so.

Now let`s say the tree of life is the symbol for faith in Jesus Christ and the tree of knowledge is the commandments.

Both trees are part of the whole equation, just abstaining from the tree of knowledge thus obeying the Commandment of God does not alone give life, added to this obedience to have life would ALSO require the eating from the free gift God gives, from the tree of Life.

Digging