For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[MarkT]

Well - I thought I was out of here but might as well see this thread through since I started it.

Mark - I believe you are incorrect here - this is a common mistake - what saith the scriptures?

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

AV

Nope. I don't know why you don't let the book open your eyes. You seem to be interpreting Paul whereas Paul is the one preaching the gospel. He's not saying his writings need interpreting. He is the one who is writing to the elect telling them they are wrong at times and correcting and reproving them at times. He is the one who is dispensing the spiritual truth as God gives it to him. I'm not saying Paul is wrong. He is my brother. You can gain a good understanding of the Scriptures and you can see his understanding comes from God. But what I am saying is first you have mistaken his letters to the elect for Scripture. That's the common mistake. His letters to the elect are no more Scripture than my posts to you are Scripture. Do you think it makes me a heretic for saying so? No. If you do then you do not believe God. The LORD dispenses wisdom and knowledge. As the Proverbs say, 'For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.' Pr. 2:6 Seek him. Jesus said so and the Scriptures attest to the same; 'My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you ... then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God.' Pr. 2:1-5 I'm not saying Paul's words do not come by the Holy Spirit. What I am saying is Scripture contains the actual words of God. We are servants of God and the message we bring comes from God but we are servants and our words are not equal to the words of God. Equality with our Master is not something we can hope to achieve. We can imitate Christ like Paul said. We can come close to being him in our mind and in our spirit but we can't be equal to him.

The Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul the latest instructions - We must consider what the Lord gave to Paul first if weare to have understanding - People go to the Gospels first (those red letters) and think because Christ spoke thme they have more advanced revelation - Advanced revelation comes from Paul. Paul's words are the words of God given by God.

I don't know what people do. I only know what you should do. You should listen to God. For some reason people don't read the Scriptures, whereas Paul instructed people to attend to the reading of Scripture. This instruction is in his letter. He wasn't refering to his letters when he said it. And the latest instructions are the same as the first instructions. They haven't changed.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Jesus told you by Paul to consider Paul first - how much bible can you take?

Nope. Jesus appointed him to serve and bear witness to the things in which he had seen him and to those things in which he would appear to him. So Paul was supposed to tell people about Jesus's appearance to him on the road to Damacus and Paul would be a witness as well to what Jesus would do. Jesus would deliver Paul from the Gentiles to whom Paul was going to preach the gospel.

 

[unred typo]

Since I helped get this thread off track, I would like to help get it back.

AVBunyan, in answer to his own OP:

Justification
by AVBunyan on Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:07 am
I'll answer my first question in an abbreviated form - don't have time to modify right now:

I. What is Justification?
A. The Problem
I was born a sinner - Rom. 3:23, dead in trespasses in sin - Eph. 2:1, at enmity with God - Rom. 8, blinded - II Cor. 4:4, dead to spiritual things - I Cor. 2:14, not seeking God - Rom. 3:8 and on my way to a lake of fire because of the sin that dwelt in me - Rom. 5:12; Rev. 20:15. There was nothing I could do to get out of this mess - Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5. How can a dead man that is dead spiritually, not seeking God, has not understanding, separated from God, and blinded to the true gospel chose God? He can’t. Lazarus was dead – he could not come back from the dead on his own. The world in Gen. 1:2 was dead and in a darkened state and not capable of coming to life on its own.

I can't take all the verses but I can start with your 'justification' "problem":

Romans 3:23 doesn’t say we were born sinners, just that all have sinned. Paul said he was alive before the commandment came. When was that if not when he was a child who didn’t know right from wrong?

Eph. 2:1) 'Dead in sin' here means under the sentence of death, not unable to repent. Paul says the Ephesians were made alive in Christ. To be in Christ all we have to do is walk in love as he taught and repent when we fail to do this and continue on the path of love toward one another and the blood will continue to cleanse us daily. It’s not that hard and certainly not impossible.

Rom. 8:7 says the CARNAL mind is at enmity with God. Turn from your carnal mind and your own selfish appetites and put somebody else’s physical needs and welfare ahead of your own, and you will be working for God and not against him.

II Cor. 4:4 is talking about the way those who are focused on sin don’t even want to see the possibility of having to give it up. Satan keeps them looking at their own needs and blinded to others. That’s why the do-nothing gospel has such wide appeal these days and so little effect on the lives of it’s followers to bring about holiness, sacrificial love and charity toward the world.

I Cor. 2:14 doesn’t say “dead to spiritual things†- it says the natural man doesn’t receive the things of the Spirit because they are foolishness unto him. Unless a person chooses to turn away from his natural cravings, he will not be interested in giving them up, will he? Even the believers among the Corinthians who didn’t turn from their natural carnal desires were ignorant of the spiritual things Paul had to teach them in this epistle. Believers and unbelievers alike can be in this ignorant state.

Romans 3:8 (I believe you meant 3:11 ) quotes a time when both Jews and Gentiles were not seeking God. It was not meant to be used to say all people everywhere do not seek God. You are using the verse out of it’s intended context. Don’t take it personal, it’s a common error.

As for the rest, to save space, I’ll simply agree that yes, we could not offer our own blood as payment for our sin, and still live eternally. We would only be able to die for our own sin since we were sentenced to die and then would have no hope to be raised from the dead. Only by being in Christ would we have hope to inherit everlasting life. Only by walking in the light of his teaching will we be in Christ and cleansed daily of our sins that we confess and/or forsake.

The ‘dead in sins’ is a metaphorical expression, Av. Just as we are ‘dead to sin,’ and can still sin. Just as those who are believers yet hate their brothers are abiding in death. Paul doesn’t mean we can’t turn from sin/darkness/death to then abide in love/light/life.

Explain this verse according to your logic:

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he says, Awake you that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.

 

[AVBunyan]

Only by walking in the light of his teaching will we be in Christ and cleansed daily of our sins that we confess and/or forsake.

Works - your walking will not put you in Christ - this is a works salvation statement. 8-)

Now folks - don't take my above statement to mean I do not believe in walking in the light...

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

 

[cyberjosh]

Only by walking in the light of his teaching will we be in Christ and cleansed daily of our sins that we confess and/or forsake.

Works - your walking will not put you in Christ - this is a works salvation statement. 8-)

Now folks - don't take my above statement to mean I do not believe in walking in the light...

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

I'm just curious AV. Why do you think the Bible needs to even tell us to walk worthy? Didn't John say that we have the Holy Spirit in us and that He teaches us all things, and that we are in need of nothing?

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:07 pm
[quote386b]unred typo wrote:Only by walking in the light of his teaching will we be in Christ and cleansed daily of our sins that we confess and/or forsake.

Works - your walking will not put you in Christ - this is a works salvation statement. 8-)

Now folks - don't take my above statement to mean I do not believe in walking in the light...

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,[/quote386b]

Sure it is it. 8-) What’s wrong with that? It is by works we deny or follow him, isn’t it? We can’t just follow him just with our mouths and expect to be ‘in him,’ can we? Faith without works is dead. I’ll let you define what ‘dead’ here means. :

He said we were called for a vocation, not vacation. Vocation is work, Av. Look it up…

Vocation 1. somebody’s job: somebody’s work, job, or profession, especially a type of work demanding special commitment (Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. )

We were given a job to do, that we didn’t deserve or earn. That would make it free in your book, wouldn’t it? Does that mean we don’t have to do it?

 

[Drew]

Works - your walking will not put you in Christ - this is a works salvation statement. 8-)

Hello AV:
It is perfectly coherent (non-self-contradictory) to believe in salvation by grace and yet still hold that the absence of works in a person's life is essentially proof that the person was either a "poseur" or wilfully abandoned his call.

It almost seems like you are arguing that if Fred claims to believe in salvation by grace through faith, he (Fred) simply cannot also believe that the lack of works shows that grace was never really accepted or that it was later rejected. I get the impression that you are a "five-pointer", am I right? Obviously a five pointer would believe that the situation I have described cannot happen.

But it seems that you may be arguing that it is conceptually incoherent to hold the following 2 views;

1. People are saved by grace through faith;
2. Some people are "pretenders" who never really did, in point of fact, accept grace or some people fall away from their secure position by effectively throwing the gift back at God.

Now you may well disbelieve number 2 because of your belief in such things as election, irrestistable grace, and perserverence. Fair enough. However, for those of us who do not believe such positions are Biblical, we can indeed hold that both 1 and 2 are correct.

What is your take on Hebrews 6:4-6?

 

[AVBunyan]

Hello AV: 1. It is perfectly coherent (non-self-contradictory) to believe in salvation by grace and yet still hold that the
a.absence of works in a person's life is essentially proof that the person was either a "poseur" or
b. wilfully abandoned his call.

2. What is your take on Hebrews 6:4-6?

1. Drew - I''ve covered this many times.
a. I believe a person who professes salvation yet their life is contrary may not really be saved. I understand this.
b. Nut here is where we part ways - I believe if a saint is truly a regenerated/sealed/blood bought saint then if he messes up and lives an abandoned life then he goes home to glory - His ride will be rough and he'll lose the reward of the inheritance but he is still in Christ and safe...miserable but safe. I do not condone such living - is this clear folks?

What I do not believe is that by one's loose living or abandonment they lose their position-salvation. They reap what they sow down here and then their reward in eternity. The saint was not saved based upon his obedience nor can he lose it based upon his disobedience.

2. I believe doctrinally, the context is Hebrews seeking their rest (not salvation bu test) in the future 1,000 year reign. What they lose is their rest and blessings not their salvation. The book of Hebrews doctrinally is for Hebrews entering into the land - they are not seeking to get in the body of Christ like today. The whole book is OT truths being expounded in the light of their high Priest, Jesus Christ. The book fits beautifully as a tribulation book. I do not expect you to except this.
Question - Drew - why would you go to a book to lose your salvation written to a nation of people (Israel) trying to get into an earthly kingdom where justification is not really discussed instead of Ephesians where the saints' position in Christ along with a heavenly kingdom is discussed?

Question - Drew - If the sealed saint could lose iut don't you think Paul would spend a lot of time on suvh an important subject nd it would be crystal clear on how one could undo the 30 or so things God did at salvation?

God bless

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan on Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:32 pm

The saint was not saved based upon his obedience nor can he lose it based upon his disobedience.

Let’s take a closer look at what is free ( not based on our obedience ) and what is not. Christ did not die for us because of our works. He died for us because he loved us. Now we have the blood to cover our sins when we repent of them, just like the Jews in the OT had a lamb or bull to cover their sins when they confessed them to the priest. Because he loved us, he became our great high priest, and this is not because of our works.

Because he loves us, he also gives us the opportunity to have the reward of eternal life when we die physically, and instead of just being bodiless spirits, we will be given the ‘glorified’ body that we have earned by our faithfulness here on earth.

This is not a gift. The job was a gift. Now you must be faithful in your job, your walk in the teachings of Christ to be grown up into the mature believer who yields a harvest for God, whether it may be ten or a hundred fold.

The glory with which you will be clothed, your spiritual body, is going to be determined by your faithfulness in this vocation wherein you were called. You can read a little about it in 1 Corinthians 15. This is the reward of faithful living that you have to lay up for yourself in heaven. He has given us all ‘talents’ with which to earn even more ‘talents’ with. Those who bury them and do nothing are appointed their portion with the unbelievers in outer darkness.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Now we have the blood to cover our sins when we repent of them, just like the Jews in the OT

2. Because he loves us, he also gives us the opportunity to have the reward of eternal life when we die physically, [/b]

3. Now you must be faithful in your job, your walk in the teachings of Christ to be grown up into the mature believer who yields a harvest for God, whether it may be ten or a hundred fold.
4. is going to be determined by your faithfulness in this vocation wherein you were called.

1. Works - we are not in the OT - Our repentance does not "activate" the work done at Calvary.

2. The saint has eternal life right now in Christ - Right now I am in Christ - Christ is in heaven so there I am also, already in eternity as you read this post.

3. Yes - but this walk does not determine whether or not you have get life.
Do you believe it does? Yes or no.

4. Eternal life is not determined by your faithfulness.
Do you believe it does? Yes or no.

If you really believe what you say then you will not know till after you die and God will look at your life, will determine how obedient and faithful you were and then grant you eternal life - This is called a works salvation no matter how you dress it up with the blood and grace.

 

[AVBunyan]

Would any one here care to define the word "justify" or "justified"?

Thanks

God bless

 

[Guest]

AV - it is clear that there are some here who use the words: salvation, justification, and sanctification are interchangably. Unfortunately - there are not synonymns (okay, can wee half the spel chequer back plese?) to be used interchangably.

 

[MarkT]

AV

Justified means made right or entitled.

1. Works - we are not in the OT - Our repentance does not "activate" the work done at Calvary.

2. The saint has eternal life right now in Christ - Right now I am in Christ - Christ is in heaven so there I am also, already in eternity as you read this post.

3. Yes - but this walk does not determine whether or not you have get life.
Do you believe it does? Yes or no.

4. Eternal life is not determined by your faithfulness.
Do you believe it does? Yes or no.

If you really believe what you say then you will not know till after you die and God will look at your life, will determine how obedient and faithful you were and then grant you eternal life - This is called a works salvation no matter how you dress it up with the blood and grace.

Actually God weighs the spirit so you're both wrong. The disciples asked Jesus, 'What must we do, to be doing the works of God?' and Jesus said, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.' John 6:28 That pretty much defines faith. Now we're speaking about spiritual things because faith is a spiritual thing. It's sown by the word of God. What do you have stored in your heart? Is it truth? If it is truth then God will add to it. But if it is false then you store up the wrath of God. If you are in Christ it means your name is written in the Lambs book of life. But it can be blotted out. It is written, "The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, 'I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Awake and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. ... He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life.'

 

[AVBunyan]

AV, Justified means made right or entitled.

Well, Mark though we do not agree on much I at least commend you for giving a definition. Can I add to it?
2. In theology, to pardon and clear form guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.

Now…how is the sinner justified or, as you stated, “made right� 1 or 2 simple verses cover this - remember I am talking about justified not what one does after he is justified - Don't confuse position with practical.
Thanks

God bless

 

[Drew]

Re Hebrews 6:4-6 and its "plain reading" that one can fall away:

2. I believe doctrinally, the context is Hebrews seeking their rest (not salvation bu test) in the future 1,000 year reign. What they lose is their rest and blessings not their salvation. The book of Hebrews doctrinally is for Hebrews entering into the land - they are not seeking to get in the body of Christ like today. The whole book is OT truths being expounded in the light of their high Priest, Jesus Christ. The book fits beautifully as a tribulation book. I do not expect you to except this.
Question - Drew - why would you go to a book to lose your salvation written to a nation of people (Israel) trying to get into an earthly kingdom where justification is not really discussed instead of Ephesians where the saints' position in Christ along with a heavenly kingdom is discussed?

I basically assumed that Hebrews 6:4-6 was directed at the body of all believers. I will need to investigate. I assume you will understand if I don't uncritically accept your assertion about who this material is directed at. Does anybody else have a comment on AVB's take on Hebrews?

 

[Drew]

Would any one here care to define the word "justify" or "justified"?

I think that I can indeed provide a precise and well-articulated position of what justification entails. This is material from the writings of NT Wright. I am not claiming that his position on the matter of justification is correct, but it is a position that merits consideration. If someone thinks it is wrong, please do not simply state your disagreement, but try to make a case that it is wrong:

To start with, a bare definition: justification is the declaration that somebody is in the right. It is a term borrowed from the lawcourtâ€â€that is what people mean when they say it is 'forensic'. In the lawcourt, justification is the judge's verdict in favour of one party or the other (cases in Jewish law were simply between accuser and accused, there being no Director of Public Prosecutions). The basic meaning of the term is therefore not 'forgiveness': a favourable verdict implies that justice, not (at this stage) mercy, is being carried out. Nor is 'acquittal' quite strong enough: justification has a positive sense, indicating not merely absence of guilt but a positive standing in the right. This status is termed 'righteousness', which in this context does not refer primarily to the character or morals of the person concerned, but simply to his status in the court on the basis of the judge's declaration. Justification is the judge's verdict that someone is in the right. Righteousness is the status before the court which results from that declaration.

In theology, therefore, justification is not the means whereby it becomes possible to declare someone in the right. It is simply that declaration itself. It is not how someone becomes a Christian, but simply the declaration that someone is a Christian. It is not the exercise of mercy, but the just declaration concerning one who has already received mercy. This is a crucial distinction, without which it is impossible to understand the biblical material.

In the Bible, of course, the judge is God himself, and the verdict is to be issued on the day of judgement. But with the Gospel of Jesus Christ a dramatic new turn has been taken. God's verdict has been brought forward into the present. Even now God declares that certain people are in the right. Even though this declaration concerns sinners, it is itself righteous, because of two things: grace and faith. We can therefore expand our definition as follows: justification is not only God's declaration on the last day that certain people are in the right: it is also his declaration in the present that, because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the person who believes the Gospel is in the right.

We begin to understand what this means if we take a further step in the argument. In the biblical lawcourt the law, which the judge himself has promulgated, is the covenant between God and his people. For God, to act righteously means to act in accordance with the covenant. For his people, to appeal for vindication in the heavenly lawcourt is to appeal to the covenant. Justification is therefore God's declaration that certain people are within the covenant. And the significance of this is that God's covenant people are a forgiven people: the covenant was designed in the first place as the means of undoing the sin of humanity. God called Abraham to reverse the sin of Adam. And when Israel herself sinned, and turned her vocation (to be a light to the world) into the arrogant boast that she and she alone was within the covenant, God promised to establish the covenant by renewing it so that Israel would be transformed and sin dealt with once and for all. The Gospel will do what the law could not do so that God's covenant promises may stand. The Gospel, in other words, will provide justification for the ungodly, whereby Gentiles and sinners will be declared 'righteous'â€â€that is, within the covenant. The language of the lawcourt, of the 'wondrous exchange' whereby Christ takes my sin and I take his righteousness, is not only describing individual salvation, but is the explanation of how Abraham's worldwide people are righteously declared to be in the right.

Justification is God's declaration, in the present, that those who believe the Gospel are in the right, are members of the covenant family.

 

[MarkT]

Well, Mark though we do not agree on much I at least commend you for giving a definition. Can I add to it?
2. In theology, to pardon and clear form guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.

You're looking at it through a distorted lens. Remember, beware the leaven of the false scribes and teachers. A little false teaching leavens/makes fall/flattens/destroys the whole lump. It's true from what I can see, that trying to fit something into a false or preconceived idea which is false, requires twisting. I presume you received some teaching from tradition. Your reference to 'theology', for example, tells me you hold theological postions whereas my position is spiritual. My position comes from me by the Holy Spirit. Your position comes from others. All I need is a dictionary. If my English comprehension is any good, then the words I receive will make sense. And they do. They make sense to my spirit. And, perhaps more importantly, I am justified in my spirit because the word makes sense everywhere it is used. I mean it is used to mean the same thing. The word by itself simply means made right or entitled. It's not necessary to add context and unnecessary baggage to the meaning of a word. The spirit or the intelligence of a word is delivered or becomes apparent in context.

Now…how is the sinner justified or, as you stated, “made right� 1 or 2 simple verses cover this - remember I am talking about justified not what one does after he is justified - Don't confuse position with practical.

Your question doesn't make sense in the light of Christ. We are justified/or made right by faith. When you trust God, he justifies you. You're made right, a worthy vessel for the Holy Spirit.

 

[MarkT]

Paul uses 'justified'. My spirit confers with the Holy Spirit and asks, 'Is this proper'? The answer is, yes, it is proper. It is a proper understanding of the words Jesus gave us. For example, Jesus said, 'by your words you will be justified' Mt. 11:9 We are justified by our faith in him then to say that our words will justify or entitle us to our reward. Because we believe it is so, it will be done for us as we have believed. If the words he gave us are in us, then we will be justified or entitled before God.

 

[cyberjosh]

AV,

When you get the chance, would you mind answering my question to you above?

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[MarkT]

When you go before God, you can say, 'Lord, we have all the promises that you gave us through your Son Jesus stored up in our hearts. You said we would be justified or be made right by our words. You said those who believed Jesus was your Christ would be saved from judgment and they would receive rewards. We have many witnesses that will bear witness to what we have believed and to what we have confessed. We know and we have confessed that Jesus is your Son, the Christ.

 

[stranger]

AV wrote:
1 a. I believe a person who professes salvation yet their life is contrary may not really be saved. I understand this.
1 b. Now here is where we part ways - I believe if a saint is truly a regenerated/sealed/blood bought saint then if he messes up and lives an abandoned life then he goes home to glory - His ride will be rough and he'll lose the reward of the inheritance but he is still in Christ and safe...miserable but safe. I do not condone such living - is this clear folks?

What I do not believe is that by one's loose living or abandonment they lose their position-salvation. They reap what they sow down here and then their reward in eternity. The saint was not saved based upon his obedience nor can he lose it based upon his disobedience.

Hi AV,

While I hope that salvation could not be lost - as I guess all of us would it is nevertheless a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. There are many perspectives that scriptures give us, some are comforting, others are not.

If we take the example that many are called but few are chosen, that is already a warning in that many will start the Christian race but few will finish it. So when is the race finished? Paul said he had fought the good fight and finished the race and kept the faith before his life ended upon this earth. This suggests to me that we can KNOW the matter. However, and this I know from scripture and personal experience; that after knowing the matter (of ones salvation) circumstances etc can bring about a change in that knowing - and this is attested to in scripture.

So let me ask you this: Do you hope that you cannot lose your salvation? Have you ever KNOWN that you we saved to the uttermost? and if you have have you known the loss of that uttermost assurance?

These are tough questions, and things that have happened to me firsthand, as I have said 'it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Furthermore, I have seen mens knees buckle at the strain of what I am referring to - and sorrow upon sorrow - that some have grasped at straws and fled rather than live under the stress that this trial brings. They have fled from a terrible place but it is my belief that unless they return their their journey will proceed no further. Something 'other' is required from us THAT unless we give it we too can proceed no further in the Christian life. Sure we can go about our usual business - but 'progress' has stopped.

All assurances are washed away as if by a flood, regardless of how significant they may have been in former days. What is all the more shocking and this can only be understood in 'fear and trembling' - the things I speak about about ARE NOT THE RESULT OF LOOSE LIVING BUT loses suffered in the midst of spiritual conflict. I refer to this place as a barren place. In judgment remember mercy O' Lord.