For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[AVBunyan]

I'm just curious AV. Why do you think the Bible needs to even tell us to walk worthy? Didn't John say that we have the Holy Spirit in us and that He teaches us all things, and that we are in need of nothing?~Josh

Hi Josh - are you referring to this one - "walk worthy? "? If so it is late but will see what I can do tomorrow (Saturday).

God bless

 

[golfjack]

Josh, Edit It just isn't right to preach what you preach, as it is not Biblical. I told you before how a Christian can lose salvation.



May God bless, Golfjack

Edit by Atonement

 

[AVBunyan]

I'm just curious AV. Why do you think the Bible needs to even tell us to walk worthy? Didn't John say that we have the Holy Spirit in us and that He teaches us all things, and that we are in need of nothing?~Josh

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

First, what is the “therefore†there for? Paul just spent three chapters expounding the glorious position the saint has in Christ. This was the doctrine. Now, Paul exhorts the saint in their duty based upon the doctrine. Basically Paul is saying, “You are a child oh the king with all the promises and privileges now carry on and live out who you are.†Ex. An earthly prince should represent his royal family in a way not to bring shame to his royal family. This common folk should know he is a prince.

Paul is not warning the saint – there are nothing in the passage stating there would be consequences if they were not to walk worthy. Paul spends more time on exhorting the saint to live out his position. If Paul believed that the saint would lose his seated position in Christ then don’t you think he would certainly spend a chapter at least on the subject?
Because Paul gives an exhortation doesn’t mean if it is not obeyed one loses his position in Christ.

The saint should walk worthy of his position because of who he is not to obtain or keep their position. You are to live out who you are not to gain favor. How much more can you gain anyway? Paul says the saint is complete in Christ now:
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
And because he is in Christ he is accepted by God in the beloved.
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

I trust his sheds some light on what I believe Paul is saying. He is not hinting our lack of walking worthy costs us our standing in Christ.

God bless

 

[unred typo]

I guess Av has me on ignore whenever he can’t answer my argument. Would someone repeat my quote for him? I answered this once but I guess it fell on deaf ears.

He said we were called for a vocation, not vacation. Vocation is work, Av. Look it up…

Vocation 1. somebody’s job: somebody’s work, job, or profession, especially a type of work demanding special commitment (Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. )

We were given a job to do, that we didn’t deserve or earn. That would make it free in your book, wouldn’t it? Does that mean we don’t have to do it?

Since when is anyone given a vocation ( that’s a job, btw ) where working is optional?

AVBunyan wrote: First, what is the “therefore†there for? Paul just spent three chapters expounding the glorious position the saint has in Christ. This was the doctrine. Now, Paul exhorts the saint in their duty based upon the doctrine. Basically Paul is saying, “You are a child oh the king with all the promises and privileges now carry on and live out who you are.†Ex. An earthly prince should represent his royal family in a way not to bring shame to his royal family. This common folk should know he is a prince.

We are not princes, we are prisoners of Christ. The key to enjoying this glorious position is that we remain in him. Verses 17-19 stress being rooted and grounded in love. Verse 4:2 confirms it is “what the therefore is there for.†This loving behavior is the walk in light that brings us into fellowship with God through his Spirit. 1 John 4:7-12 says that he that doesn’t love, doesn’t even know God and IF we love one another God dwells in us and we dwell in him.

AVBunyan wrote: Paul is not warning the saint – there are nothing in the passage stating there would be consequences if they were not to walk worthy. Paul spends more time on exhorting the saint to live out his position. If Paul believed that the saint would lose his seated position in Christ then don’t you think he would certainly spend a chapter at least on the subject?
Because Paul gives an exhortation doesn’t mean if it is not obeyed one loses his position in Christ.

Consequences? You mean like chapter 5:5-6? “For this you know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

AVBunyan wrote: The saint should walk worthy of his position because of who he is not to obtain or keep their position. You are to live out who you are not to gain favor. How much more can you gain anyway? Paul says the saint is complete in Christ now:
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
And because he is in Christ he is accepted by God in the beloved.
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Sounds like we have much to gain because Paul prays:

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:16-19

AVBunyan wrote: I trust his sheds some light on what I believe Paul is saying. He is not hinting our lack of walking worthy costs us our standing in Christ.

Yes, it shows us what you believe Paul is saying and frankly, it’s not very comforting that you can ignore what Paul really said and still not notice.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, Edit It just isn't right to preach what you preach, as it is not Biblical. I told you before how a Christian can lose salvation.


May God bless, Golfjack

Edit by Atonement

I can't really tell because of the edit, but are you talking to me when you said "It just isn't right to preach what you preach"? If so what were you talking about? If you refer to my post to AV, realize I was testing AV to see how he would respond. I of course do not believe that the Christian does not need teaching, infact the opposite. I believe we need to know all the warnings in the Bible and heed them - rather than ignore them as some do.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

AV wrote:
1 a. I believe a person who professes salvation yet their life is contrary may not really be saved. I understand this.
1 b. Now here is where we part ways - I believe if a saint is truly a regenerated/sealed/blood bought saint then if he messes up and lives an abandoned life then he goes home to glory - His ride will be rough and he'll lose the reward of the inheritance but he is still in Christ and safe...miserable but safe. I do not condone such living - is this clear folks?

What I do not believe is that by one's loose living or abandonment they lose their position-salvation. They reap what they sow down here and then their reward in eternity. The saint was not saved based upon his obedience nor can he lose it based upon his disobedience.

Hi AV,

While I hope that salvation could not be lost - as I guess all of us would it is nevertheless a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. There are many perspectives that scriptures give us, some are comforting, others are not.

If we take the example that many are called but few are chosen, that is already a warning in that many will start the Christian race but few will finish it. So when is the race finished? Paul said he had fought the good fight and finished the race and kept the faith before his life ended upon this earth. This suggests to me that we can KNOW the matter. However, and this I know from scripture and personal experience; that after knowing the matter (of ones salvation) circumstances etc can bring about a change in that knowing - and this is attested to in scripture.

So let me ask you this: Do you hope that you cannot lose your salvation? Have you ever KNOWN that you we saved to the uttermost? and if you have have you known the loss of that uttermost assurance?

These are tough questions, and things that have happened to me firsthand, as I have said 'it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Furthermore, I have seen mens knees buckle at the strain of what I am referring to - and sorrow upon sorrow - that some have grasped at straws and fled rather than live under the stress that this trial brings. They have fled from a terrible place but it is my belief that unless they return their their journey will proceed no further. Something 'other' is required from us THAT unless we give it we too can proceed no further in the Christian life. Sure we can go about our usual business - but 'progress' has stopped.

All assurances are washed away as if by a flood, regardless of how significant they may have been in former days. What is all the more shocking and this can only be understood in 'fear and trembling' - the things I speak about about ARE NOT THE RESULT OF LOOSE LIVING BUT loses suffered in the midst of spiritual conflict. I refer to this place as a barren place. In judgment remember mercy O' Lord.

NOW!!!!! This is something worthy of reading!!!! And I have to wonder IF there is ANYONE that doesn't understand it HOW they can REST so ASSURED. For I certainly KNOW that 'my walk' has NOT been so 'serene' that I am OBLIVIOUS to the points offered in the above quote.

Thanks Stranger, your words are both wise and a comfort in that 'some' speak here of a 'Christianity' that I KNOW NOTHING OF. Nice to see that "I" am not the ONLY ONE that has found it to BE a 'struggle' at times BEYOND my simple strength to endure.

Your comments ring true in my ears EXPECIALLY the example of MANY called but FEW CHOSEN. To the OSAS this is NOTHING more than a reference to ALL being called are NOT all saved. What I would have to ask is HOW does ONE KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?

I made references in a previous post to 'brain-washing' and this is what I BELIEVE it TAKES to accept OSAS. For JUST as one CAN be saved, they are CERTAINLY FREE to 'give up' what has been offered.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and it's AMAZING how some will quote the promises of the Bible yet IGNORE the warnings. They will offer these quotes as if THAT IS ALL there is too it; acceptance of the promises that are POSITIVE and beneficial, while IGNORING the promises that are detrimental.

It is a matter of BOTH folks. The promises ARE 'conditional'. And IF one REFUSES to honor the conditions there is NO REASON that they have to BELIEVE that the 'beneficial promises' will be rewarded ANY MORE than the detrimental ones.

The Bible is NOT a 'nice' story. It is a guide or a book of UNDERSTANDING. One CANNOT simply read and accept the parts that 'they LIKE' and ignore the rest. And it takes the WHOLE Word to discern the meaning behind MOST principles, (even the MOST basic). And taking ONE line and BELIEVING that one has a grasp of a concept through this ONE LINE is doing NOTHING but 'fooling oneself'.

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Oh, and it's AMAZING how some will quote the promises of the Bible yet IGNORE the warnings.

2. They will offer these quotes as if THAT IS ALL there is too it; acceptance of the promises that are POSITIVE and beneficial, while IGNORING the promises that are detrimental.

3. The promises ARE 'conditional'. And IF one REFUSES to honor the conditions there is NO REASON that they have to BELIEVE that the 'beneficial promises' will be rewarded ANY MORE than the detrimental ones.

4. The Bible is NOT a 'nice' story.

First – not sure why I keep flogging a dead horse but in case there are some new readers I’ll go for it.

1. Who says we ignore the warnings?
What some of are able to is to be able to discern what the warning is and to whom the warning is directed doctrinally to. Ex. (exaggerating here) – you folks have tunnel vision – You might read where Paul says: 1 Tim 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. You guys read into it that if one does not refuse old wives tales then you stand a chance of falling away into outer darkness! Or if one does not exercise themselves unto godliness then he loses it in the long run. So, first you don’t understand what a practical exhortation is in Paul’s writings are because you are so keen on trying to show God what a good little boy you are you wrest the scriptures to your own destruction.

Secondly – you ignore the context of where the “warning†is found. Ex. – the famous, “endure the end†verse of Matt. 24…
Context –
Time period – Great Tribulation (not the church age)
Who directed to – Jews in the Great Tribulation – not saints in the body of Christ today.
Message – If one physically gets to the end then they are physically saved – not dealing with their spiritual salvation. You guys automatically assume the verse was dealing with spiritual salvation of the church age saint. There are many more of your examples.

Summary of above:
You “lose-its†do not understand that a warning can be just an exhortation, especially under Paul.
You “lose-its†automatically assume that disregarding a warning or an exhortation means the loss of salvation.
You “lose-its†can never get the context right - You “lose-its†cannot differentiate between how God deals with the nation of Israel vs. the body of Christ – You do not know the difference between the two.

2. See above point.

3. Here is where your works salvation is exposed and your lack of understanding of point#1. Some of Israel’s promises are conditional and some are not. Ex. Israel will get the land no matter what. But, some may not have the rest when they get there (Hebrews) but the land is there. Israel will be a nation of kings and priests in the 1,000 year reign – this is settled. Some of Paul’s exhortations are conditional - 2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. – If one does not consider Paul then he will not get understanding in all things – doesn’t mean he will lose his salvation.
Ones’ justification is not conditional based upon obedience.
I have eternal life right now.
I am justified right now. Gal. 2:16
I am glorified right now. Rom. 8:30
I am sealed right now. Eph.1:13; 4:30
I am seated in heavenly places right now. Eph. 2:6
I am forgiven right now. Eph. 1:7
I have made righteous right now – Rom. 3:22
I am complete in Christ right now. Col. 2:10
The above is just part of my position before God and how God sees me judicially.

You folks are waiting for you to complete your journey and hoping these things will be true of you based upon your great obedience. You are self-righteous. You are trusting you not Christ.

4. The scriptures is a great story but it is also a rat trap and a sift. The scripture capture and exposes rats and sifts the wheat from the tares.

One more time with feeling: You “lose-its†do not understand what scriptural justification is nor what God did at Calvary for you. This was the intent of the OP –I wanted to see if you did – I gave you the opportunity - You have demonstrated that after 25 pages…you do not. Your only response is:
“You just believe you can live any way you want while I believe in obedience and I am obedient so therefore I am going to make it!!!!â€Â

Have a nice day :wink:

 

[Free]

Your ignorant comments and strawman ideas aside, the "meat" of your post comes undone by the following verses:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (1 Timothy 4:1)

9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. (1 Timothy 6:9-10)

20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you. (1 Timothy 6:20-21)

 

[AVBunyan]

Your ignorant comments and strawman ideas aside, the "meat" of your post comes undone by the following verses:

Besides the perversion you use to twist the scriptures you are going to tell me you never wander and swerve from the faith at times or have you reached a state of perfection? Plus wandering from the faith is not the same as losing one's standing/position in Christ.

You are totally ignorant of what the saint's position is in Christ. :o

Hey Free - BTW, find me a verse in Paul where the saint's position is changed by his living - I don't mean take a verse that deals with one's walk and then misapply it to one's position. One will do.

You just can't get it can you Free - this position vs. practical issue. :o

 

[Free]

Besides the perversion you use to twist the scriptures you are going to tell me you never wander and swerve from the faith at times or have you reached a state of perfection? Plus wandering from the faith is not the same as losing one's standing/position in Christ.

Why is it that you put so much study into what you think is true and so little into everything else? These passages are not about mere wanderings or swervings where one remains in the faith; these passages clearly show that they speak of a complete departing from the faith, a divorcing, apostasy. Allow me to make it clearer, even using the KJV.

From crosswalk.com's Bible study tools:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1, KJV)

"fall away", "depart" - Gk. aphistemi - "to desert, withdraw from one, to fall away, become faithless to shun, flee from"; from:

1. apo:
of separation
of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
of separation of a part from the whole
where of a whole some part is taken
of any kind of separation of one thing from

2. histemi:
to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
to bid to stand by, [set up]
in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
to place
to make firm, fix establish
...
to be of a steadfast mind of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver


For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10, KJV)

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13:22, KJV)

"to seduce" - Gk. apoplanao - "to lead away from the truth, to error, to go astray, stray away from"; from:

1. apo - see above

2. planao:
to cause to stray, to lead astray, lead aside from the right way
to go astray, wander, roam about metaph.
to lead away from the truth, to lead into error, to deceive
to be led into error
to be led aside from the path of virtue, to go astray, sin
to sever or fall away from the truth
of heretics
to be led away into error and sin


Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21, KJV)

"erred" - Gk. Astocheo - "to deviate from, miss (the mark)"; from:

1. A - negative paritcle

2. stoichos - an aim

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thess. 2:1-3, KJV)

"falling away" - Gk. Apostasia - "a falling away, defection, apostasy "; interestingly, this is the feminie form of the neuter Apostasion, which means "divorce, repudiation a bill of divorce".

It doesn't get clearer that at some point there will be a large departing from the faith. History supports this by showing that many departed from the faith during the early persecutions. Modern history supports this by the numerous atheists who were once Christians, even some on these forums.

More importantly, this proves my assertion that on an individual basis, one can lose their salvation.

 

[unred typo]

1. Oh, and it's AMAZING how some will quote the promises of the Bible yet IGNORE the warnings.

2. They will offer these quotes as if THAT IS ALL there is too it; acceptance of the promises that are POSITIVE and beneficial, while IGNORING the promises that are detrimental.

3. The promises ARE 'conditional'. And IF one REFUSES to honor the conditions there is NO REASON that they have to BELIEVE that the 'beneficial promises' will be rewarded ANY MORE than the detrimental ones.

4. The Bible is NOT a 'nice' story.

First – not sure why I keep flogging a dead horse but in case there are some new readers I’ll go for it.

1. Who says we ignore the warnings?
What some of are able to is to be able to discern what the warning is and to whom the warning is directed doctrinally to. Ex. (exaggerating here) – you folks have tunnel vision – You might read where Paul says: 1 Tim 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. You guys read into it that if one does not refuse old wives tales then you stand a chance of falling away into outer darkness! Or if one does not exercise themselves unto godliness then he loses it in the long run. So, first you don’t understand what a practical exhortation is in Paul’s writings are because you are so keen on trying to show God what a good little boy you are you wrest the scriptures to your own destruction.

Secondly – you ignore the context of where the “warning†is found. Ex. – the famous, “endure the end†verse of Matt. 24…
Context –
Time period – Great Tribulation (not the church age)
Who directed to – Jews in the Great Tribulation – not saints in the body of Christ today.
Message – If one physically gets to the end then they are physically saved – not dealing with their spiritual salvation. You guys automatically assume the verse was dealing with spiritual salvation of the church age saint. There are many more of your examples.

Summary of above:
You “lose-its†do not understand that a warning can be just an exhortation, especially under Paul.
You “lose-its†automatically assume that disregarding a warning or an exhortation means the loss of salvation.
You “lose-its†can never get the context right - You “lose-its†cannot differentiate between how God deals with the nation of Israel vs. the body of Christ – You do not know the difference between the two.

2. See above point.

3. Here is where your works salvation is exposed and your lack of understanding of point#1. Some of Israel’s promises are conditional and some are not. Ex. Israel will get the land no matter what. But, some may not have the rest when they get there (Hebrews) but the land is there. Israel will be a nation of kings and priests in the 1,000 year reign – this is settled. Some of Paul’s exhortations are conditional - 2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. – If one does not consider Paul then he will not get understanding in all things – doesn’t mean he will lose his salvation.
Ones’ justification is not conditional based upon obedience.
I have eternal life right now.
I am justified right now. Gal. 2:16
I am glorified right now. Rom. 8:30
I am sealed right now. Eph.1:13; 4:30
I am seated in heavenly places right now. Eph. 2:6
I am forgiven right now. Eph. 1:7
I have made righteous right now – Rom. 3:22
I am complete in Christ right now. Col. 2:10
The above is just part of my position before God and how God sees me judicially.

You folks are waiting for you to complete your journey and hoping these things will be true of you based upon your great obedience. You are self-righteous. You are trusting you not Christ.

4. The scriptures is a great story but it is also a rat trap and a sift. The scripture capture and exposes rats and sifts the wheat from the tares.

One more time with feeling: You “lose-its†do not understand what scriptural justification is nor what God did at Calvary for you. This was the intent of the OP – I wanted to see if you did – I gave you the opportunity - You have demonstrated that after 25 pages…you do not. Your only response is:
“You just believe you can live any way you want while I believe in obedience and I am obedient so therefore I am going to make it!!!!â€Â

Have a nice day :wink:

That was quite a straw man you built. A virtual haystack with a hat on it. Instead of trying to answer all your peculiar examples let‘s examine your claims apposed to those of one who thinks that salvation can be lost. That would be me, but you may not notice since you have me on ignore.

AVBunyan wrote: Ones’ justification is not conditional based upon obedience.
I have eternal life right now.
I am justified right now. Gal. 2:16
I am glorified right now. Rom. 8:30
I am sealed right now. Eph.1:13; 4:30
I am seated in heavenly places right now. Eph. 2:6
I am forgiven right now. Eph. 1:7
I have made righteous right now – Rom. 3:22
I am complete in Christ right now. Col. 2:10
The above is just part of my position before God and how God sees me judicially.

Pretty impressive list. I can make the same exact list:
I, too, have eternal life right now and I am justified right now.
Gal. 2:16, Romans 3:25 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Notice: the remission is for sins that are past….

I am also glorified right now. Start back in Romans 2:10
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile…
Notice: who gets glory, honor and peace?

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Observe that if we suffer, we may be glorified…

I, too, am sealed right now. Eph.1:13; In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The word of truth is the word that Jesus taught about love for one another, forgiveness of others, holiness, mercy, humility, and faith. When we accept this word of truth, we are sealed.

4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

When do we grieve? When we lose something precious to us or when someone dies.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Notice the seal of God is on them that depart from iniquity. If you turn toward iniquity, you break that seal.

I am seated in heavenly places right now. Eph. 2:6 And (God) hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Notice that our seat in heaven is together in Christ. When we operate our lives within his teaching and in his love for one another, we are in Christ. When we are walking in love, we are seated in the heavenly places right now. When we are living in apathy, or acting in hate or cruelty, are we still walking in love?

I am forgiven right now. Eph. 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We are forgiven right now through his blood. In Christ, if you are walking in His love, your sins are continually washed away by the blood. Notice 1 John 1:7 :

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

I have made righteous right now – Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

And to whom is righteousness applied? Key words: Believe and faith. Those who believe in what Jesus taught us. Believing in Jesus is believing in his message, not just what he did for us. If you believed in Hitler, you wouldn’t just believe that he lived and died, but you would embrace and live by what he said to do.

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I am complete in Christ right now. Col. 2:10 And you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Yes, when you are in Christ you are complete. The admonishment is then to remain in Christ, walking in love and good works and not abandon those things which you have learned from him. There is nothing about any of those verses that says that you can never lose those things which are held available for you in Christ.

I know I am in Christ right now as I sit here and type this, but I am admonished not to boast of tomorrow. Peter said he would never deny the Lord. Ooops. How many times did he break that promise? At least three times. But did he fall away? Not that we can see from scriptures. He continued in the teachings of Christ steadfast unto the end, even though he was not perfect in his walk, his heart was in the right place. If your heart is wrong, then even if your walk is outwardly flawless, you will fall away when you are tested. Yet, you can change your heart, for better or for worse.

 

[Free]

Bump.

 

[cyberjosh]

You know I've been debating salvation stances for years now on boards like this, and I'm starting to develop more of the attitude that the theology of it doesn't matter as much as the practicality of it. I can come away from all these arguements and determine to know one simple thing: Christ and him crucified (which Paul did among the Corinthians); and not that I have yet attained, but that, forgeting the things which are behind, I press toward the mark in perseveance for the upward calling in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:12-14; paraphrased).

I make sure my walk is right above all, so as to remove any doubt as to whether I personally will stand with endurance and not "lose it".

This I believe is the most important principle to come away from these debates with. Otherwise our discussions here are vanity and bickering. I urge you to press on as well, and determine to know God, which is eternal life.

May God truely bless you and keep you,

~Josh

 

[Guest]

You know I've been debating salvation stances for years now on boards like this, and I'm starting to develop more of the attitude that the theology of it doesn't matter as much as the practicality of it. I can come away from all these arguements and determine to know one simple thing: Christ and him crucified (which Paul did among the Corinthians); and not that I have yet attained, but that, forgeting the things which are behind, I press toward the mark in perseveance for the upward calling in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:12-14; paraphrased).

I make sure my walk is right above all, so as to remove any doubt as to whether I personally will stand with endurance and not "lose it".

This I believe is the most important principle to come away from these debates with. Otherwise our discussions here are vanity and bickering. I urge you to press on as well, and determine to know God, which is eternal life.

May God truely bless you and keep you,

~Josh

Josh - if I may add to what you wrote:

One can have all the orthodoxy they want, but without orthopraxis, what good is all that 'orthodoxy'?

We do not (or atleast should not) have a creedal faith.

 

[Drew]

You know I've been debating salvation stances for years now on boards like this, and I'm starting to develop more of the attitude that the theology of it doesn't matter as much as the practicality of it.

I tend to think that one simply cannot separate "theology" from "practicality". I know this sounds "new age-y", but its all interconnected. A personal example: fairly recently, I have come to believe that we Christians have created a false distinction between the world of the "physical" and the world of the "spiritual". This change in my "theology" influences my stance on environmental issues. A related example: if one's "theology" holds that this present world will be utterly destroyed in an apocalyptic meltdown in the fairly near future, then strip-mining and other environmentally damaging practices are not of that serious consequence, since the world will be destroyed anyway.

There are other examples - what one believes about theology will affect how one lives in the world. I think that "bickering" is attributable to the personality of the specific poster, not the content of the theological positions themselves. And I am not necessary "blaming" those who tend to be rude and dismissive of others or are unable to consider the possibility that they may be mistaken. Perhaps such persons were raised in an environment that stifled free and unfettered inquiry and where personal insults featured prominently in the way issues were discussed and resolved. It would then not be surprising that the acorn would not fall far from the oak.

Another example that is peripherally related to the topic of "can one lose it" - election. Now I happen to think that election, as understood by most, is not Scriptural. But believing that one is elected unto salvation and others are elected to damnation cannot help but deeply influence the way that one deals with those in the "non-elected" camp. It creates an "us-them" divide that I believe is very destructive. Given what I believe to be true about human nature, I cannot help but believe that a belief that there are 2 fundamentally different classes of people - those pre-destined to heaven and those pre-destined to the fire - will invariably produce a form of "pride" - boasting in one's favoured position - that is reminiscent of the national boast of the Jews (that the Jewish nation is God's favoured people) that I see Jesus and Paul preaching strongly against.

So I think that theology and practice are inextricably bound up with one another.

 

[Free]

I agree with Drew - without right belief there can be no right practice. Christianity is a religion of the book so it makes sense that it would be, and should be, a religion of the creed. These issues do make a difference in how one sees other doctrines, you cannot separate belief from practice.

 

[cyberjosh]

I agree with Drew - without right belief there can be no right practice. Christianity is a religion of the book so it makes sense that it would be, and should be, a religion of the creed. These issues do make a difference in how one sees other doctrines, you cannot separate belief from practice.

The only thing is alot of theology and doctrine borders more on the speculative and philospophical to try to account for unknowns. You can not practically enact an unknown. Just because God is beyond comprehension doesn't mean I can't know him though, for example. Theology (as used by most -since knowledge puffs up) seems to over-compensate by speculating into areas it shouldn't and it makes you an abstract judge, standing back "outside the situation" to look at the the "rights" and "wrongs" while not offering a practical stance for yourself. This is how the Bible describes the luke-warm. They see the righteous and see it is good, and the wicked and disapprove of it and all the time are looking at both sides of the pole while paying no attention to themselves and their state, which they refuse to choose between. They think they are rich with knowledge but are rather poor and naked where they are, because they are looking at everything else and making judgements & opinions but never judge themselves.

"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." (Rev. 3:17)

The same with theology some times. It can become presumptuous and of no practical help whatsoever. That's because as Paul said knowledge puffs up. You can have an intellectual theology and not live it. This is what I mean by theology, and also no one has a perfect theology (for our minds are fallible), does this mean we cannot live by faith rather than knowledge? No God will supply us with what we need when we lack understanding. This is where I suggest there is a difference between theology and practicality.

And in the end if one believes they can loose their salvation and another does not but they both emphasise the neccesity of perseverance, then practically they should act no different. They will both press on to endure forthe high calling of God. So you see my point? Its the actions not just the static thoughts.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

cybershark5886 wrote on Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:57 pm

And in the end if one believes they can loose their salvation and another does not but they both emphasise the neccesity of perseverance, then practically they should act no different. They will both press on to endure forthe high calling of God. So you see my point? Its the actions not just the static thoughts.

While I agree wholeheartedly with most of your post, I have found this statement to be slightly off. I have had a couple interesting reactions to my telling others (in person, not on this board) about the necessity of faith shown by works and the wrongness of believing in OSAS.

Several people have admitted that just being told that they would be judged by their works for salvation, made them pay more attention to their walk, and they began to notice where they had strayed from the course. They became aware of sin in their lives that they had become complacent about.

On the other hand, one person told me that if they believed the way I did, they would just give up in despair since they had no confidence in their own ability to “keep themselves saved.â€Â

Upon reflection, I saw that I had overemphasized the need to take personal responsibility and omitted the love and care that God shows toward those who have determined to follow him. When you will to do his will, you are not left alone to battle the forces that war against your soul. God looks at the heart. God is ‘for us’ when we are committed to love one another and do what he has taught us is right and pleases him.

Along with OSAS, we have been wrongly taught that God cannot be pleased with our imperfect actions. How can we even try to please a God who can’t be pleased with even our best attempts to please him! Imagine how discouraged our own children would be if, no matter how hard they tried, we considered their best efforts to be “filthy rags!†How many crooked clay pots made with love and care would we receive if everyone was discarded as disgusting, ugly and useless? How soon would this joy and love be replaced with apathy and lack of self esteem? All this cruel attitude attributed to God because of the misreading of a couple of verses!

What we are taught does effect our actions. OSAS and “Total Depravity†theology impacts us in such a subtly negative way. On one hand, we are lulled into complacency by God‘s great unconditional love, and on the other, we are discouraged by God’s great unconditional disgust of every human effort. No wonder the practicality of faith has been undermined and compromised. What has been substituted is a weak imitation of the robust faith and confidence that we are to face the enemy with. David was counted by his brothers as prideful when he went to battle the giant with just his sling and rocks but his personal relationship with God gave him self confidence, not pride. He realized that God had promised to help him, not do it for him.

 

[cyberjosh]

Several people have admitted that just being told that they would be judged by their works for salvation, made them pay more attention to their walk, and they began to notice where they had strayed from the course. They became aware of sin in their lives that they had become complacent about.

That's called the Fear of the Lord, a doctrinal emphasis sadly lacking among many Churches and individuals. I have repeatedly quoted New Testament verses that urge the Fear of the Lord and then give a subsequent warning, but some genius OSAS people keep saying, "Oh, he was talking to unbelievers." Hog wash! Their love for Christ has kept them from legalism, but their lack of the Fear of the Lord has brought them closer to lawlessness by discrediting God's warnings. You need both to stay on the narrow path, for on either side of it two ditches: legalism and lasciviousness (lawlessness). The love of the Lord keeps you from falling into the ditch of legalism, but the Fear of the Lord keeps you from falling into the ditch of lawlessness. Empasise the Fear of the Lord more people! That is the correct emphasis. For in the last days the Bible says lawlessness will increase. The Fear of the Lord will keep you from sin (Exodus 20:20). If even OSAS people would emphasise the Fear of the Lord more I wouldn't be so bothered, even if they still held to OSAS.

God Bless,

~Josh