For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[Vic C.]

On the other hand, one person told me that if they believed the way I did, they would just give up in despair since they had no confidence in their own ability to “keep themselves saved.â€Â

Give up what? :-?

I would be one of those who would say I cannot keep myself saved, because I did not save myself in the first place. THE ONE who saves also does the persevering and preservation and keeps His own "saved". What did you do to save yourselves and what do you think you could possibly do to insure that salvation??? In other words, what can you do to circumvent the work done on the Cross for you?

 

[francisdesales]

On the other hand, one person told me that if they believed the way I did, they would just give up in despair since they had no confidence in their own ability to “keep themselves saved.â€Â

Give up what? :-?

I would be one of those who would say I cannot keep myself saved, because I did not save myself in the first place. THE ONE who saves also does the persevering and preservation and keeps His own "saved". What did you do to save yourselves and what do you think you could possibly do to insure that salvation??? In other words, what can you do to circumvent the work done on the Cross for you?

Disobey God. The covenant promises are made for those who obey God - this is a predominant theme in both Testaments.

Regards

 

[Drew]

I will insert my snout into the discussion of "human effort". I tend to see things along the same lines as unred (or at least my take on what he has posted). However, I will adopt a different take on the matter - appealing to what one concludes when one introspects on the nature of "making effort". I think that the question of whether one can lose one's salvation is an important one and I presently fall into the camp of those who believe that lack of "human effort" and / or persistent wilful sin can place one's eternal fate at risk. I cite Romans 2:6-7 in support of this view:

"who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

Now I realize that others will argue that it is "God, and not me, who does the persevering". This is where I ask posters to introspect and squarely address the content of their own experience in respect to whether they exert any control at all in regard to matters of perservering.

For me, the following is clear: independent of whether God provides some, or even most of, the will and energy to perservere, there is undoubtedly, in the content of my experience, an element of "me" making choices, of me choosing to take the high road (yay) or the low road (hiss). I think it would be manifestly unfair to say that I am arguing that I "justify myself", robbing God of that role. Far from it. God has done the work of justification on the Cross - my salvation is a gift. But it is a gift like the electric bike my friend owns. Unless he exerts energy to push the pedals, the electric motor does not kick in. However, with a little effort on his part, the motor starts and it is really the motor that gets most of the work done.

I have always felt that this "its all God" or "none of it is God" argument is a false dichotomy. We continue to exist as human individuals after salvation - while we have access to the new nature and to energizing effect of the Holy Spirit, we are not transformed into beings whose every action is fully determined by the agency of God. This should be obvious - we see every Christian at least occasionally sinning and we have lots of warnings from Paul and Jesus and others about the possibility of falling away - clearly it is "us" who does the "falling away", isn't it?

I think that to deny the reality of the role of human effort in living faithfully is, to build on what unred has said, to say that "we are nothing - we are filthy rags, who contribute precisely zero to our destiny". And I cannot see how such a view is healtly. While it obviously gives God all the credit for our good works, it seems to maginalize us to be more "bodies animated fully by an external agency (God, obviously)". We seem to lose ourselves in the process. And when one is truly loved by an another, one's own being should gain significance, not lose it in its entirety.

 

[cyberjosh]

I will insert my snout into the discussion of "human effort". I tend to see things along the same lines as unred (or at least my take on what he has posted). However, I will adopt a different take on the matter - appealing to what one concludes when one introspects on the nature of "making effort". I think that the question of whether one can lose one's salvation is an important one and I presently fall into the camp of those who believe that lack of "human effort" and / or persistent wilful sin can place one's eternal fate at risk. I cite Romans 2:6-7 in support of this view:

"who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

Now I realize that others will argue that it is "God, and not me, who does the persevering". This is where I ask posters to introspect and squarely address the content of their own experience in respect to whether they exert any control at all in regard to matters of perservering.

For me, the following is clear: independent of whether God provides some, or even most of, the will and energy to perservere, there is undoubtedly, in the content of my experience, an element of "me" making choices, of me choosing to take the high road (yay) or the low road (hiss). I think it would be manifestly unfair to say that I am arguing that I "justify myself", robbing God of that role. Far from it. God has done the work of justification on the Cross - my salvation is a gift. But it is a gift like the electric bike my friend owns. Unless he exerts energy to push the pedals, the electric motor does not kick in. However, with a little effort on his part, the motor starts and it is really the motor that gets most of the work done.

I have always felt that this "its all God" or "none of it is God" argument is a false dichotomy. We continue to exist as human individuals after salvation - while we have access to the new nature and to energizing effect of the Holy Spirit, we are not transformed into beings whose every action is fully determined by the agency of God. This should be obvious - we see every Christian at least occasionally sinning and we have lots of warnings from Paul and Jesus and others about the possibility of falling away - clearly it is "us" who does the "falling away", isn't it?

I think that to deny the reality of the role of human effort in living faithfully is, to build on what unred has said, to say that "we are nothing - we are filthy rags, who contribute precisely zero to our destiny". And I cannot see how such a view is healtly. While it obviously gives God all the credit for our good works, it seems to maginalize us to be more "bodies animated fully by an external agency (God, obviously)". We seem to lose ourselves in the process. And when one is truly loved by an another, one's own being should gain significance, not lose it in its entirety.

Well spoken!

"A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold" (Proverbs 25:11).

----------------------------

May we dedicate our will to His service so that we will be useful to the Master (2 Timothy 2:21).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[wingnut]

I think I can lose it because Judas Iscariot did.

I think I can lose it because Paul thought he could lose it, and I am much weaker than Paul. (1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. )

I think I can lose it, because Christ warned us against losing it. (Matthew 13:20-21 0 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. )

I think I can lose it, because Hebrews 6 clearly states that those who were "once enlightened" can fall away to the extent they cannot be found again. (Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. )

I think I can lose it, because John warned us to hold onto our crowns. (Revelation 3:11 1 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. )

I think I can lose it, because all 7 true churches of Revelation (Ephesus..Laodicea) were warned not to fall away, but to "hold fast".

That said, I know there is one who can keep me from falling - and its on Him that I rely, not on myself. (Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. )

 

[Vic C.]

Wow, 27 pages later and AV's OP was still not properly addressed. No wonder he keeps saying people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross and how profound an act is was toward mankind. Our Creator succeeded (of course HE did!) in doing what man was incapable of doing for himself, but we still want some credit for what we do over and above hearing and believing (trust; faith).

You all know the story. Some complained about their wages because they did more than the others that was hired later in the day. Still, all received the same reward, didn't they???

Matthew 20
1 ¶ For the kingdom of Heaven is like a man, a housemaster, who went out when it was early to hire workers into his vineyard.
2 And agreeing with the workers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing idle in the market.
4 And he said to them, You also go into the vineyard, and I will give you whatever is just. And they went.
5 Again, going out about the sixth and ninth hour, he did the same.
6 And going out about the eleventh hour, he found others standing idle, and said to them, Why do you stand here idle all day?
7 They said to him, Because no one has hired us. He said to them, You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is just.
8 But evening having come, the lord of the vineyard said to his manager, Call the workers and pay them the wage, beginning from the last to the first.
9 And the ones having come the eleventh hour each received a denarius.
10 And having come, the first supposed that they would receive more. And they also each received a denarius.
11 And having received it, they murmured against the housemaster,
12 saying, These last have performed one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.
13 But answering, he said to one of them, Friend, I do not wrong you. Did you not agree to a denarius with me?
14 Take yours and go. But I desire to give to this last as also to you.
15 Or is it not lawful for me to do what I desire with my things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last; for many are called, but few chosen. (LITV)

Oh, someone mentioned Judas, which brings us to another topic that is somewhere in this Forum. But if you find it and want do answer this question, go for it:

Why do you assume Judas was ever saved?

 

[Drew]

Wow, 27 pages later and AV's OP was still not properly addressed. No wonder he keeps saying people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross and how profound an act is was toward mankind. Our Creator succeeded (of course HE did!) in doing what man was incapable of doing for himself, but we still want some credit for what we do over and above hearing and believing (trust; faith).

Some of us have addressed AVB's question head on. Speaking for myself, I provided a highly focussed answer that directly addressed that request. These were not my own ideas, but they provided a clear assertion about what justification is all about. So I would say that AVB's OP was indeed addressed.

Here is something directly extracted from the OP:

So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

AVB asked about what Justification is all about. I will repeat what I posted on this subject (this ie material from NT Wright). One may not need to read this - it is a copy and paste of material already presented. But it shows that the OP has indeed been squarely addressed. It expresses what justification means (and does not mean) - see the bolded and underlined stuff. By virtue of the content of this view about justification, justification is not a process but rather a "declaration". So, in a sense, the question as to "how we are justified" loses its meaning. Remember - if justification is, as Wright asserts, merely a declaration about someone who has already received mercy, then the "how" of such declaration is trivial - God simply pronounces it to be the case.

To start with, a bare definition: justification is the declaration that somebody is in the right. It is a term borrowed from the lawcourtâ€â€that is what people mean when they say it is 'forensic'. In the lawcourt, justification is the judge's verdict in favour of one party or the other (cases in Jewish law were simply between accuser and accused, there being no Director of Public Prosecutions). The basic meaning of the term is therefore not 'forgiveness': a favourable verdict implies that justice, not (at this stage) mercy, is being carried out. Nor is 'acquittal' quite strong enough: justification has a positive sense, indicating not merely absence of guilt but a positive standing in the right. This status is termed 'righteousness', which in this context does not refer primarily to the character or morals of the person concerned, but simply to his status in the court on the basis of the judge's declaration. Justification is the judge's verdict that someone is in the right. Righteousness is the status before the court which results from that declaration.

In theology, therefore, justification is not the means whereby it becomes possible to declare someone in the right. It is simply that declaration itself. It is not how someone becomes a Christian, but simply the declaration that someone is a Christian. It is not the exercise of mercy, but the just declaration concerning one who has already received mercy. This is a crucial distinction, without which it is impossible to understand the biblical material.

In the Bible, of course, the judge is God himself, and the verdict is to be issued on the day of judgement. But with the Gospel of Jesus Christ a dramatic new turn has been taken. God's verdict has been brought forward into the present. Even now God declares that certain people are in the right. Even though this declaration concerns sinners, it is itself righteous, because of two things: grace and faith. We can therefore expand our definition as follows: justification is not only God's declaration on the last day that certain people are in the right: it is also his declaration in the present that, because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the person who believes the Gospel is in the right.

We begin to understand what this means if we take a further step in the argument. In the biblical lawcourt the law, which the judge himself has promulgated, is the covenant between God and his people. For God, to act righteously means to act in accordance with the covenant. For his people, to appeal for vindication in the heavenly lawcourt is to appeal to the covenant. Justification is therefore God's declaration that certain people are within the covenant. And the significance of this is that God's covenant people are a forgiven people: the covenant was designed in the first place as the means of undoing the sin of humanity. God called Abraham to reverse the sin of Adam. And when Israel herself sinned, and turned her vocation (to be a light to the world) into the arrogant boast that she and she alone was within the covenant, God promised to establish the covenant by renewing it so that Israel would be transformed and sin dealt with once and for all. The Gospel will do what the law could not do so that God's covenant promises may stand. The Gospel, in other words, will provide justification for the ungodly, whereby Gentiles and sinners will be declared 'righteous'â€â€that is, within the covenant. The language of the lawcourt, of the 'wondrous exchange' whereby Christ takes my sin and I take his righteousness, is not only describing individual salvation, but is the explanation of how Abraham's worldwide people are righteously declared to be in the right.

Justification is God's declaration, in the present, that those who believe the Gospel are in the right, are members of the covenant family

And I think that you may be playing a little loose with what it really means to "believe and have trust" when you imply (if I am not mistaken) that some of us are "asking for credit". Speaking for myself, I will underscore that it is not at all obvious that "belief and trust" are sterile intellectual acts of assent to the proposition that Jesus died for my sins. I think it is more likely that the intended meaning of these words entailed the idea of obedience. It seems to me that many evangelicals think that it can truly be said that they believe in Jesus if they do not act in a manner that is consistent with the "declarative content" of such a belief. I think we have another false distinction at play here - that we can truly be said to believe X if we act in a manner that would be expected from someone who does not believe X.

 

[Free]

Wow, 27 pages later and AV's OP was still not properly addressed. No wonder he keeps saying people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross and how profound an act is was toward mankind.

But his post has been properly addressed. What I implied by my previous post, which he has yet to respond to, is that despite what he believes about justification and the meaning he gives to it, the fact remains that there are passages of Scripture which strongly imply that people can, and will, lose their salvation.

My whole point to him is that his understanding of justification is incorrect; it just isn't there. I also think his understanding of certain positions regarding losing one's salvation is ignorant -- he sets up straw men to prove the validity of his understanding of Scripture.

 

[Drew]

Wow, 27 pages later and AV's OP was still not properly addressed. No wonder he keeps saying people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross and how profound an act is was toward mankind.

But his post has been properly addressed. What I implied by my previous post, which he has yet to respond to, is that despite what he believes about justification and the meaning he gives to it, the fact remains that there are passages of Scripture which strongly imply that people can, and will, lose their salvation.

My whole point to him is that his understanding of justification is incorrect; it just isn't there. I also think his understanding of certain positions regarding losing one's salvation is ignorant -- he sets up straw men to prove the validity of his understanding of Scripture.

Hello Free:

Have you read NT on the topic of justification? For the life of me, I cannot determine if he believes that people can lose their salvation - salvation and justification being different things for NT. He can be very cryptic in his writing. At the very least, he believes that something can be lost by failing to live a life of obedience, perhaps not salvation, but at least "rewards".

Having raised this, I want to underscore the following

1. while I am presently a big fan of NT, I do not view him as infallible;
2. my present view is similar to yours re the matter of losing salvation.

Now if we could only agree on "life after death" issues, we would have nothing to disagree about.....

 

[Free]

I haven't actually read any of NT's books but I do own three of them (I'm currently trying to work my way through a Francis Schaeffer trilogy). I would certainly agree that rewards can be lost but it sure seems that much more than that can be lost. I really would like to know if there is any other way of interpreting those passages I gave.

Now if we could only agree on "life after death" issues, we would have nothing to disagree about

Well that would be no fun. ;)

 

[lovely]

Having the perfect theology does not make one obedient. It is the failure to unlearn the things of the world, and embrace Godly wisdom (which is rooted in the fear of the Lord) that keeps us from obedience, and preserverence. Think about the Word falling on the different soils. It is a love of the things of this world, rather than a love for the law of God, which keeps us from sanctifying our hearts to Him. The doctrine of the Father, which is the doctrine that Christ spoke, is all we should be speaking and trusting. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He did this very thing Himself with His Father in heaven...He did the will of the Father, because of love. Love is the key to obedience, because this charity will compel us to serve, feed, heal, practice hospitality, forgive, wash each other's feet, etc.

Why do some fall away? DECEIT David in Psalm 119, which speaks of loving God's law, says, "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin agains thee." God's Word is what will keep us, as it kept Christ. The Truth is what sets us free, and there is no lie in the Truth.

Drew, I can not agree that I can keep myself until that day. It seems like this is what you are saying. I think this idea alone could lead one to a state of unrepentance, because it puts 'self' first, rather than the denial of self which is what Christ instructed of us. Scripture says that we are not to lean on our own understanding, but in all our ways acknowledg Him and He will direct our path. How can we walk worthy, if we do not first understand that it is because we are unworthy that we are even called to make the effort?

I think we all should be studying the Word, but to be approved by God, not by men. If we have parts of our theology wrong, and we ALL probably do, then God is the one who will teach us if we are His. If we are not His, but walking in self-righteousness, then we probably will never see our theology as wrong...we'll just be waiting for the next new contrary bright idea that comes on the horizon so that we can vainly parade our man-centered wisdom before men...even lord it over men in a leagalistic manner. We will change, but it will be with every wind of doctrine that blows, not through the power of the Holy Spirit freeing us from the bonds of sin. We won't even see our own sin...though we will have no problem seeing the sins of others. This is what happens when we lack love, and when we fail to practice self-denial. Good theology can not solve these problems, and neither can self...only Truth. When we are given over to God's Truth, above our selves, above our theologies, our denominations, our reactions, our culture, etc. then we are able to pracitice true religion as Jesus' defined it.

Jesus is the only solution, and through Him all things are possible. When you look at the rich young ruler, and compare him to the tax collector, you see that what is impossible with man is possible with God. Obedience, or being convinced of your own obedience, does not save...as the rich young ruler exampled. But, when you take a man, unworthy and lost in his sin, and you see Jesus bring salvation to his house, you see an example of the grace that brings one to obedience...in his overwhelming love for Christ he immediately could not obey Him enough, and had no problem letting go of the worldly riches. All this is possible with God, but impossible with man. No, it is not of ourselves, but it is a work of God. We love Him, because He first loved us, and from that love our faith-obedience comes. We are able then to hear His instruction, obey His commands, heed His warnings, bear His fruit, walk in repentance, do good works, all those things that lead to overcoming the deceiver. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[lovely]

These words of Peter came to my mind later, and so I thought it would be good to post them.


1 Peter
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:
Drew, I can not agree that I can keep myself until that day. It seems like this is what you are saying. I think this idea alone could lead one to a state of unrepentance, because it puts 'self' first, rather than the denial of self which is what Christ instructed of us. Scripture says that we are not to lean on our own understanding, but in all our ways acknowledg Him and He will direct our path. How can we walk worthy, if we do not first understand that it is because we are unworthy that we are even called to make the effort?

We would not be called to make the effort if it were not possible for us to accomplish the goal, Lovely. God will not even suffer us to be tempted above we are able to withstand. When we take on the stance that we are unable to keep ourselves, that is giving in to a defeat that displeases God. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

As for worthiness, we were worthy to God, while we were yet sinners, of the precious blood of Christ being shed for us, is that not God putting a high value on mankind? It’s a value that we cannot deny, but we are not in any position to attain to the full potential of it without the blood of Christ. The sad fact is we are sinners who have sinned and do sin despite our best efforts to continue in love and good works. We are like addicts who must take responsibility to keep ourselves away from those things that lure us back into our sin. We can have devoted parents and friends, even God himself and all the heavenly hosts, who come along beside us to lift us up and call us back but ultimately, we must take the responsibility upon ourselves. And we must not become enablers to those who are in denial and ignorance of these facts.

The power of the gospel is that by denying ungodliness and selfish lusts we can be saved.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[lovely]

Hi unred,

I just can't agree on this point, and I would say that it sort of overlaps the topic in the free will thread. I agree that we are to come up higher, to walk worthy, but I would say that it is only by the Spirit we are able to do this.

Just a question to you...what is self-righteousness in your definition. I don't believe we have discussed this before. I'd like to know your thoughts. The Lord bless you.

 

[unred typo]

lovely wrote: on Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:04 pm
Hi unred,

I just can't agree on this point, and I would say that it sort of overlaps the topic in the free will thread. I agree that we are to come up higher, to walk worthy, but I would say that it is only by the Spirit we are able to do this.

Just a question to you...what is self-righteousness in your definition. I don't believe we have discussed this before. I'd like to know your thoughts. The Lord bless you.

The Pharisees were self righteous. They rejected mercy, love and forgiveness taught by Christ and trusted in themselves that they were righteous because they kept the outward appearance of doing what was required but lacked the heart of love for others and God in it. They loved to appear to be better than others by the rituals and rites that they flaunted before the crowds. They were interested in great gain but not true godliness.

I’ll also tell you what it is not. 'Being self-righteous' is not synonymous with ‘trusting in your own good works’ that you are doing because you want to obey and follow Christ. We have been admonished to do good both to our friends and our enemies. We are told in scripture, in the very words of God’s own son, to do good works and expect a future reward of eternal life. Believing this is not being self righteous. It is acting in faith, taking God at his word and trusting in Christ!

 

[MarkT]

While it's true that Jesus won't lose any man that God gives him, you would think that a saint would know that faith can be lost and with it the hope of eternal life. Even love can grow cold and brother will betray brother. There are many false teachers who don't know God and who don't seek after God. There are many followers who can't give up the world who follow after them. Some teachers tell people God will reward them financially. I don't know. They don't have the knowledge of God and they are leading people away from God. They don't cry out for insight. They don't raise their voice for understanding. They don't seek it like silver or search for it as for treasure. They don't store up the words of God. Hearts trained in greed, they go after silver instead of understanding and gold instead of knowledge.

 

[AVBunyan]

Wow, 27 pages later and AV's OP was still not properly addressed. No wonder he keeps saying people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross and how profound an act is was toward mankind.

Have't been posting anymore and even deleted my few links so "out of sight...ot of mind" but I was on a old system Saturday AM and saw the 123 link and was curios so I came here and found this thread still going on, :crazyeyes: so....I think I just might put together a response to cover the last few posts and maybe wrap it up.

In the mean time -
Thanks Vic – the key word here is “properlyâ€Â..Two challenges were presented:
1. What is scriptural justification?
2. Name at least 5 things that God did to the sinner once he was “savedâ€Â.

#1 was kind of addressed by a very few.
#2 was barely touched on by just a few which was part of the evidence I needed to prove what Vic said I’ve been saying for years here and other places: “..people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross"..and some are blinded to the work at Calvary and are still unregerate.

Again - the reason you folks still think you can lose it is becasue you still do not grasp the above 2 points. The books of Ephesians and Colossians are closed books to many of you here.

So...give me some time and if anyone is interested they can check back later to view my response on the matter.

Later

 

[Free]

In the mean time -
Thanks Vic – the key word here is “properlyâ€Â..Two challenges were presented:
1. What is scriptural justification?
2. Name at least 5 things that God did to the sinner once he was “savedâ€Â.

#1 was kind of addressed by a very few.
#2 was barely touched on by just a few which was part of the evidence I needed to prove what Vic said I’ve been saying for years here and other places: “..people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross"..and some are blinded to the work at Calvary and are still unregerate.

Again - the reason you folks still think you can lose it is becasue you still do not grasp the above 2 points. The books of Ephesians and Colossians are closed books to many of you here.

Please at least respond to the passages I gave where it shows that people can and will lose their salvation. Based on those passages your understanding of justification is incorrect.

 

[AVBunyan]

Please at least respond to the passages I gave where it shows that people can and will lose their salvation. Based on those passages your understanding of justification is incorrect.

My soul Free - you mean to tell me I haven't covered these verses in the last 5 years or so already???? :crazyeyes:
What are they?

 

[AVBunyan]

1. I think I can lose it because Judas Iscariot did.

2. I think I can lose it because Paul thought he could lose it, and I am much weaker than Paul. (1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. )

3. I think I can lose it, because Christ warned us against losing it. (Matthew 13:20-21)

4. I think I can lose it, because Hebrews 6 clearly states that those who were "once enlightened" can fall away to the extent they cannot be found again. (Hebrews 6:4-6, 4)

5. I think I can lose it, because John warned us to hold onto our crowns. (Revelation 3:11 1 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. )

6. I think I can lose it, because all 7 true churches of Revelation (Ephesus..Laodicea) were warned not to fall away, but to "hold fast".

That said, I know there is one who can keep me from falling - and its on Him that I rely, not on myself.

This is not my final post on the issue – I just threw this in early because it was easy to respond to.
I’m answering this for these are some of the standard “scenariosâ€Â…
1. Judas was a devil – devils are not human and do not get saved anywhere in scripture.

2. Castaway from the ministry – the context of the chapter is his ministry…not his salvation – don’t read into what is not there –

3. Now you are in the Gospels - OT, Jewish, kingdom age setup prior to Calvary – not a redeemed NT saint in sight.

4. Context of Hebrews is Israel seeking to obtain a rest in their future earthly kingdom – not a spiritual salvation like we are seeking. These types of examples demonstrate the lack of understanding of how a person is saved.

5. Now you jumped to the future Tribulation where the whole context is Jews seeking to survive the onslaught of the antichrist.

6. See point #5

7. “and its on Him that I rely, not on myself.†– But you are relying on yourself if you believe you can lose it for you are relying on you not to turn away (Judas), you not to be a castaway (I Cor. 9), you not lose it in Matt. 13, you to hang on to your crowns – Rev. 3, you not to €œfall away†in Hebrews, you to hold fast in Rev. I see a lot of you in here. Works all the way wingnut!

God bless