Forum Poll

[FreeGrace]

Matthew 19:23-30 New International Version (NIV)

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Chessman is it possible for a camel to enter the eye of a needle ? Yes or no.

How can "it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom" equal "it is impossible for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom"?

If you're relying on God's power that he can do anything, I completely agree. We can have sun for breakfast and moon for dinner. I actually believe that BUT in the present context give me a true reply.

I don't believe that we can have sun for breakfast and moon for dinner. Where does that belief come from?

Can a camel enter the eye of a needle? Yes or no.

The Scripture is clear. Yes. But it's difficult, or hard for a camel to do so.

Matt 19:24 - Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

There is nothing in this verse that says it's impossible for either a camel to go through the eye of a needle or a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

The Lord Jesus Christ did ask the rich man to believe.

The rich man thought he was saved by following the law and The Lord showed him that he was not saved by following the law. He(the rich man) was burdened and heavy- laden with following the law for his salvation and money was his stumbling block.........the Lord revealed that to him, hence the rich man walked away 'sad' or 'grieved.'

So where was the 'call to believe upon Him?'

Matt 19:21~~New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come(the call to faith in Him), follow Me."

Matt 11-28~~New American Standard Bible
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

The definition of COME is FAITH is again contrived and erroneous . Come only means come . Not belief . Please do not distort the meaning . Yes I absolutely agree the Lord beckons the rich man TO FOLLOW Him ( AFTER giving up all he had) which means much more than mere faith

To further dash the heretical doctrine of easy believism, I quote yet another story ( parable)from the mouth of Jesus Christ himself, no less, and again Jesus scrupulously refrains from saying" just believe in me" and which only proves the doctrine of easy believeism is completely false and even heretical. Why else is Christ telling this story and pointing out WHAT IS NEEDED FOR INHERITING ETERNAL LIFE . So here goes the incomparable Christ in His own sweet(est) words ( thank you Lord!)

Luke 10:25-37
New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Good Samaritan:

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

----------------------------+x-------------+-+---x-----------
Again it's blatantly obvious Christ does not once suggest " believe in me and you will have eternal life". Why do you think He didn't say that ?

 

[Corn Pop]

Does this suggest that a born again Christian (there is no other kind) can be un-born? If so, please guide me to such verses that say so.

Thank.

Can you guide me to verses where a born again Christian is someone who rejects Christ.

There is no such thing as a born again Jesus denying Christian.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

If faith is necessary for salvation,
the faith is necessary to maintain salvation.

Belief in Jesus.............one is saved.
No belief in Jesus.....one is not saved.

We have faith..................we are saved.
We do not have faith...we are not saved.

Easy.

This is the most simple and profound post of this entire thread.


Thank you for your sincerity.



ME

 

[FreeGrace]

This is the most simple and profound post of this entire thread.

Thank you for your sincerity.
ME

And people can be sincerely wrong.

The view that salvation can be lost is directly refuted by Jesus, who said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Now, THAT is profound!!

 

[GodsGrace]

And people can be sincerely wrong.

The view that salvation can be lost is directly refuted by Jesus, who said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Now, THAT is profound!!

Are you saying I'm wrong?
That's against forum rules I believe.
Those to whom Jesus gives eternal life will never perish,
as long as Jesus dwells with them.
The Holy Spirit cannot dwell where there is a life of sin..which is a statement you have made...that we can live a life of sin and still be saved because Jesus gives eternal life.
I've explained John 10:28 to you more than once.
Can YOU explain the following?:

John 14:20
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.


John 17:23
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Ephesians 3:17-19
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,


Collosians 1:27
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The bible verses which deny that one can sin and remain in Christ, or Christ in him are overwhelming.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are you saying I'm wrong?
That's against forum rules I believe.
Those to whom Jesus gives eternal life will never perish,
as long as Jesus dwells with them.
The Holy Spirit cannot dwell where there is a life of sin..which is a statement you have made...that we can live a life of sin and still be saved because Jesus gives eternal life.
I've explained John 10:28 to you more than once.
Can YOU explain the following?:

John 14:20
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.


John 17:23
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Ephesians 3:17-19
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,


Collosians 1:27
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The bible verses which deny that one can sin and remain in Christ, or Christ in him are overwhelming.

That last sentence; We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Do you not have the Spirit?
Do you have the Spirit?
You have been given a gift by God that will not leave you.

 

[GodsGrace]

That last sentence; We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Do you not have the Spirit?
Do you have the Spirit?
You have been given a gift by God that will not leave you.

I agree. The Holy Spirit will never leave me.
But what if I turn to a life of sin?
FreeGrace has said that one could live a life of sin and still be saved.
This cannot be true since God demands that we obey Him. He always has, from the time of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:17
And they disobeyed, and they died spiritually.
Just like we would die spiritually if we turned from God.

Also 2 Timothy 2:12b speaks to this....IF we ENDURE, we shall also reign with Him,
IF we DENY Him, He will deny us. The denial can happen before salvation or after salvation...if is STILL denial.

(verse 13 is misunderstood and does not apply to this conversation)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree. The Holy Spirit will never leave me.
But what if I turn to a life of sin?
FreeGrace has said that one could live a life of sin and still be saved.
This cannot be true since God demands that we obey Him. He always has, from the time of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:17
And they disobeyed, and they died spiritually.
Just like we would die spiritually if we turned from God.

Also 2 Timothy 2:12b speaks to this....IF we ENDURE, we shall also reign with Him,
IF we DENY Him, He will deny us. The denial can happen before salvation or after salvation...if is STILL denial.

(verse 13 is misunderstood and does not apply to this conversation)

In your answer to 2 Timothy 2:12b;
I give you,
Titus 1:16;
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for anything good.

 

[GodsGrace]

In your answer to 2 Timothy 2:12b;
I give you,
Titus 1:16;
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for anything good.

I don't understand your point.
You're agreeing with me it seems. Those who are disobedient and live a life of sin cannot be followers of Christ.

If we say we know Christ, our actions must match our words.
Titues 1:16
THEIR actions showed that they did not know Christ, but knew Him only in word.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't understand your point.
You're agreeing with me it seems. Those who are disobedient and live a life of sin cannot be followers of Christ.

If we say we know Christ, our actions must match our words.
Titues 1:16
THEIR actions showed that they did not know Christ, but knew Him only in word.

Yes, I did not see your point with your verse.

 

[chessman]

verse 13 is misunderstood and does not apply to this conversation

Verse 13 is misunderstood by those who snip it out of Paul’s trustworthy statement (singular).

The following is a trustworthy statement (singular, not plural ‘statements’) only when taken as a whole:

The saying is trustworthy— for if we died-with Him, we will also live-with Him; if we are enduring, we will also reign-with Him; if we shall deny Him, that One also will deny us; if we are faithless, that One remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.​

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:11-13&version=DLNT

When it’s partitioned into multiple snips and then claims are made that only a snipped portion is applicable and the edited out portions are not applicable, it’s clearly being misunderstood. Else Paul would have said ‘the following statements are trustworthy’.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I did not see your point with your verse.

My point with 1 Timothy 2:12b is that if we deny Jesus, He will deny us.
As YOUR verse points, out (Titus 1:16) if we live a life of sin, we cannot be followers of Jesus. He taught that we are to obey Him.
John 14:15 If we love Him, we will obey Him. (His commands).

So, it seems to me that one cannot live a life of sin and say he is Christian.
One cannot be born again at some point in his life, then, for whatever reason, abandon God and live a life of sin, and proclaim that he is STILL saved.
Even Paul teaches this by telling us HOW we are to behave...
For instance Ephesians 5:1-6 tells us now NOT to behave, which means we are to do the opposite:
We are to walk in love
We are to be moral
We are not to be greedy, but share what we have
We are to speak clean language
We should always give thanks
We are not to be covetous
We are not to be idolaters

We are not to listen to emptly words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of DISOBEDIENCE.

We are to walk as children of the light.

 

[GodsGrace]

Verse 13 is misunderstood by those who snip it out of Paul’s trustworthy statement (singular).

The following is a trustworthy statement (singular, not plural ‘statements’) only when taken as a whole:

The saying is trustworthy— for if we died-with Him, we will also live-with Him; if we are enduring, we will also reign-with Him; if we shall deny Him, that One also will deny us; if we are faithless, that One remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.​

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:11-13&version=DLNT

When it’s partitioned into multiple snips and then claims are made that only a snipped portion is applicable and the edited out portions are not applicable, it’s clearly being misunderstood. Else Paul would have said ‘the following statements are trustworthy’.

Many change 2 Timothy 2:13 to mean something is does not.
They understand it to mean that even if THEY are unfaithful, God will remain faithful (to their salvation).
This is not what it means. If it were, verses 12 and 13 would conflict.
verse 12 says that if we deny HIM, HE will deny us.
verse 13 says that if we are unfaithful, He will remain faithful to Himself.
A clear contradiction if those who misunderstand it were correct.

What it does mean is that even if WE become unfaithful and lose our faith in God, HE will remain faithful to HIMSELF because God does not lie. And how does He remain faithful to Himself? By keeping His promise of supplying the method by which one could be saved. This method will always be available. Even if we lose our faith in God, God does not lose His faith in HIMSELF. He can only be true to Himself and continue with His salvation economy. His plan from the beginning of the world does not change just because someone lost faith in Him.

 

[chessman]

verse 12 says that if we deny HIM, HE will deny us.

Deny us what? (from the context please)

HE will remain faithful to HIMSELF

Are not Christians indwelt with the Spirit of Christ as a deposit of His possession?

Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.​

2 Timothy 1:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 1:14&version=DLNT

 

[dirtfarmer]

Deny us what? (from the context please)



Are not Christians indwelt with the Spirit of Christ as a deposit of His possession?

Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.​

2 Timothy 1:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 1:14&version=DLNT

hello chessman, dirtfarmer here

I agree with you. So lets look at what has been said about Christians.
Are Christians not the body of Christ? So, if Christ denied Christians would that not be denying himself?
It is impossible to prune branches from the vine and have new life. What you have is a regrowth of the old vine, not a new vine.
In order to have a new life the old vine must be uprooted and a new vine be place there, or in other words, a change in the vine is necessary.
As a believer the vine change is from a life that is in a worldly vine to a Spiritual vine.

As I have stated before; "we are sinner by decree of God, therefore we sin." We are not sinners because we sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you saying I'm wrong?

This is exactly what I said:
"And people can be sincerely wrong.

The view that salvation can be lost is directly refuted by Jesus, who said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Now, THAT is profound!!"

That's against forum rules I believe.
Those to whom Jesus gives eternal life will never perish,
as long as Jesus dwells with them.

John 10:28 says nothing about "as long as..." anything. Which seems to continue to be missed by some.

There are no conditions for those to whom Jesus gives eternal life in order to never perish. Or He would have specified them in that verse.

The FACT that he didn't specify any conditions to recipients of eternal life means that there are NONE.

Another way to say that is eternal security.

The Holy Spirit cannot dwell where there is a life of sin..which is a statement you have made...that we can live a life of sin and still be saved because Jesus gives eternal life.

I never said that Jesus gives eternal life. He said it Himself in John 10:28. I have only quoted what He said.

And I never made the statement that you're claiming I made. If I did, please cite the post #.

I've explained John 10:28 to you more than once.

I recall this has been said twice now. Yet, the most recent time it was claimed all comments were about v.27. So, at this point, I've not seen ANY exegesis of v.28 in any of your posts.

Can YOU explain the following?:

John 14:20
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 17:23
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Ephesians 3:17-19
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Collosians 1:27
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The bible verses which deny that one can sin and remain in Christ, or Christ in him are overwhelming.

"overwhelming"? None of these verses say, much less mean, what is claimed here.

But, just for clarification from your statement here, does "deny that one can sin and remain in Christ" mean that when one sins, they are no longer in Christ? That is what it seems to me to be saying.

If not, then please clarify what was meant.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree. The Holy Spirit will never leave me.
But what if I turn to a life of sin?

Does this mean that the Holy Spirit accompanies you to hell??

FreeGrace has said that one could live a life of sin and still be saved.
This cannot be true since God demands that we obey Him.[/QUOTE]
This is a horrible twisting of what I've said. By leaving out an important fact. Any believer who does live a life of sin will be punished for it, including pain on earth (Heb 12:11) and loss of eternal reward. Please don't leave out important parts of what I say. It's very misleading and not at all honest.

He always has, from the time of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:17
And they disobeyed, and they died spiritually.
Just like we would die spiritually if we turned from God.[/QUOTE]
How can a born again person die spiritually? Please follow forum rules and provide clear support from Scripture for these claims.

Also 2 Timothy 2:12b speaks to this....IF we ENDURE, we shall also reign with Him,
IF we DENY Him, He will deny us. The denial can happen before salvation or after salvation...if is STILL denial.

Let's consider the actual context, ok?

v.12a - if we endure, we will also reign with him.

So, the context for v.12a is to "reign with Him". That's NOT the same as saying "will live with Him". To reign is to share in His Kingship. It's a reward for enduring. Rewards are EARNED, unlike salvation, which is by grace.

We find the same principle in Rom 8:17b - co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So, to "endure" from 2 Tim 2:12 means the same thing as to "share in His sufferings" in Rom 8:17b.

Now, 2 Tim 12:b - If we disown him, he will also disown us;

The Greek word fo "disown" is: NT:720 arneomai (ar-neh'-om-ahee); perhaps from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and the middle voice of NT:4483; to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate:
KJV - deny, refuse.

At www.biblehub.com, 24 of the 28 English translations given have "deny". I don't think all those scholars were misinformed.

So, what v.12 is obviously saying is that if believers endure in the faith, they WILL reign with Christ, a reward for faithfulness, BUT, if they fail to endure in the faith, they will be denied the privilege or reward of reigning with Him.

(verse 13 is misunderstood and does not apply to this conversation)

Hardly. v.13 is another verse stating eternal security. How can God the Father deny entrance to any believer who has the Holy Spirit in them?

Remember what Rom 8:16 says: The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

So, to whom does the Spirit testify that we (believers) are God's children? God the Father, that's who.

And those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them cannot be lost. Because God cannot deny Himself.

So v.13 is equally important along with v.12.

 

[GodsGrace]

Deny us what? (from the context please)

Are not Christians indwelt with the Spirit of Christ as a deposit of His possession?

Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.​

2 Timothy 1:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 1:14&version=DLNT

If we deny Him, He will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12b
Deny us before the Father.
See Mathew 10:33
New American Standard Bible
"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Our salvation depends on our being with Christ when we die. If Jesus denies us to the Father, it means we will not be saved. We must not be denied by Him to the Father in order to be saved.

2 Timothy 2:14 tells Timothy to repeat basic essentials over and over. It tells him TO WARN the people to whom he will preach against 2quarreling about words, which is useless, and leads to THE RUIN of the hearers. Ruin = loss of salvation.

As to the deposit of His possession.
The deposit shows good intention on the part of God to keep HIS word.
We must also keep OUR word and remain in Christ. This deposit does NOT guarantee the faithfulness of the person, just the faithfulness of God (who must remain true to Himself). God will never back out of our salvation "deal", but if we do not keep our part of the deal, God is under no obligation to provide us with eternal life, since eternal life means being in the light of Christ and having full faith in His salvation.

Ephesians 1:13-14
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

In HIM we must trust. The Holy Spirit's sealing is the guarantee of our redemption of the possession. It's our inheritance that is being guaranteed. In order to receive this inheritance we must believe. The inheritance is not ours UNTIL it is redeemed, and it will not be redeemed if we lose our faith.
1 Peter 1:8-9
8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

It's plain to see that we must love Jesus, believe in Him, in order to obtain the OUTCOME of our faith (we must have faith) the salvation of our souls.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is exactly what I said:
"And people can be sincerely wrong.

The view that salvation can be lost is directly refuted by Jesus, who said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Now, THAT is profound!!"


John 10:28 says nothing about "as long as..." anything. Which seems to continue to be missed by some.

There are no conditions for those to whom Jesus gives eternal life in order to never perish. Or He would have specified them in that verse.

The FACT that he didn't specify any conditions to recipients of eternal life means that there are NONE.

Another way to say that is eternal security.


I never said that Jesus gives eternal life. He said it Himself in John 10:28. I have only quoted what He said.

And I never made the statement that you're claiming I made. If I did, please cite the post #.


I recall this has been said twice now. Yet, the most recent time it was claimed all comments were about v.27. So, at this point, I've not seen ANY exegesis of v.28 in any of your posts.


"overwhelming"? None of these verses say, much less mean, what is claimed here.

But, just for clarification from your statement here, does "deny that one can sin and remain in Christ" mean that when one sins, they are no longer in Christ? That is what it seems to me to be saying.

If not, then please clarify what was meant.

If you do not exegete the verses I've posted, there is no reason to continue.
You obviously are unable to or you would have.
I will not continue to speak to John 10:27-28 when you ignore all my verses.
John 10:27-28 states only that Jesus gives eteral life. Yes. To those who believe and obey His teachings. Not to those who do not. Please reply to my verses.