Forum Poll

[gr8grace3]

I don't agree that God's love is transitory.

Nor do I. We have no idea what this love is until we are saved and walking in the Spirit. God always has an impersonal,unconditional love for mankind. We will NOT until we are saved and are filled with Spirit and have His Doctrine in our soul. It is a love that is totally foreign to us unless we are in the Spirit and have advanced in His doctrine........love your enemy. Not going to happen until we are well advanced in doctrine and filled with the Spirit.

It is not a question of God starting and stopping His Love based upon something in us. It is about God loving based upon what is in Him. And He gives us that at salvation.

1 John 4~~ 7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[gr8grace3]

P

Excellent point Maria I wonder why straightforward things of the Word are beung ignored due to the mighty fear of condemnation. So desperately are many clinging to the hope of eternal salvation at all costs

Like John 10:28 for instance. We cling to eternal salvation/security at HIS cost. Not ours.

And John 5:24 for instance. 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Your interpretation of scripture is being ignored, not scripture. John 5:24 is a double negative. And says," Does not and absolutely will not come into judgement!!!!" Emphatically, it tells us we are not and will not be condemned/come into judgement!!

It is amazing how folks are in fear of their eternal life and cling to condemnation. When the Lord clearly and sufficiently tells us we HAVE eternal life and WILL NOT come into judgement/condemnation.

 

[UberMink]

Nor do I. We have no idea what this love is until we are saved and walking in the Spirit. God always has an impersonal,unconditional love for mankind. We will NOT until we are saved and are filled with Spirit and have His Doctrine in our soul. It is a love that is totally foreign to us unless we are in the Spirit and have advanced in His doctrine........love your enemy. Not going to happen until we are well advanced in doctrine and filled with the Spirit.

It is not a question of God starting and stopping His Love based upon something in us. It is about God loving based upon what is in Him. And He gives us that at salvation.

1 John 4~~ 7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

In reading a few of your posts here I think you don't realize at this point what you're saying here. And forgive me if I am reading you in error. However, what I have read in at least two posts including this one quoted above, and your other post 456, as being written by someone who is not yet saved.
The reason I arrive at that conclusion is your response above is to my post here re-posted below.

I don't agree that God's love is transitory. God is love. 1John 4:8
If we fall from the faith for whatever reason God does not stop loving us. We do not eject the Holy Spirit of God from ourselves because we make a misstep. The Spirit does not flee from us when God knows our inward parts because he wove us together in the womb. That is not eternal love like that which brought forth himself as Emmanuel in order to make a new covenant with the worlds fallen people so that the sins of the world would be wiped clean by the act of faith God deemed us worthy of that sacrifice. The blood of which was shed covering all sins and washing us clean so that as we were born of water and blood from the womb, we arise reborn as a new being who carries the Holy guiding Spirit of God within us.
That the kingdom that is within is now alight and inhabited by its king Spirit that leads us through the valley of the shadow of death. That we may fear no evil because God is with us.

There are so many pages here bickering back and forth as to what God is. When his only begotten son delivered a pain filled , suffering, excruciating death on the last sin altar to fulfill the promise of redemption through faith. Eternal life forever and ever, Amen.

You say we have no idea what God's love is until we are saved. However, you wrote that in response to my observations (above) that spoke from a place of one who is saved. I do know God's love.
In post 456 you stated, If we grow in the knowledge and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will humbly fall to our knees and see that we DO live in a life of sin. .

Those are not remarks reflective of one who lives in the spirit.

 

[gr8grace3]

In reading a few of your posts here I think you don't realize at this point what you're saying here. And forgive me if I am reading you in error. However, what I have read in at least two posts including this one quoted above, and your other post 456, as being written by someone who is not yet saved.
The reason I arrive at that conclusion is your response above is to my post here re-posted below.


You say we have no idea what God's love is until we are saved. However, you wrote that in response to my observations (above) that spoke from a place of one who is saved. I do know God's love.
In post 456 you stated, If we grow in the knowledge and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will humbly fall to our knees and see that we DO live in a life of sin. .

Those are not remarks reflective of one who lives in the spirit.

Yeah. You are reading them in error.

 

[FreeGrace]

What's appauling is to lead persons to believe they could live a life of sin and still be saved.

I think what is appalling is that there are believers who believe that those who have been given eternal life CAN perish in spite of the fact that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I've been paying attention to a possible exegesis of John 10:28 from you. Maybe I missed your question, but I'm sure everyone knows my position, which comes from what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Once a person is given eternal life, they shall never perish. There are no conditions that recipients must meet in order to never perish.

What about the refusal to exegete John 10:28? Or is it just an inability.

Either way, if an exegesis of that single verse isn't forthcoming, there is no reason to continue."

And this response:

1. You asked where you said one could abandon Christ and still be saved.
Please check post no. 12 in the One on One debate, FreeGrace/JLB in the Apologetics forum.

Why use my quote from above to the comment above. They aren't related. I was still asking for an exegesis of v.28 which still hasn't been provided.

JLB asked you:
Question 2.

Based on the above mentioned scriptures, can a person who believes and is saved, then later, does not believe and rejects Christ, and turns to the god of those who are persecuting them, still be saved?

To which You replied:

Yes! Definitely! Absolutely! I hope I've made myself clear.

It doesn't matter what a believer does in the future regarding his salvation in order to stay saved and enter heaven.

I've been asking you to confirm the above, but I see that a confirmation is not necessary...the above is clear. You believe a person could live a life of sin, abandon God, worship other gods AND STILL BE SAVED.

Again, I think it is appalling that some believers think that those who have been given eternal life CAN perish, in spite of the FACT that Jesus said those he gives eteranl life shall NEVER perish. A total disconnect.

2. You keep asking for an exegesis on John 10:28. I've done this at least two times.
One time was in post no. 330. I'll copy and paste for you:

Jesus never misspoke. To those whom He gives eternal life, THEY shall never perish.
As in John 10:27
Jesus' sheep hear His voice and know His voice and He knows them and they FOLLOW Him. To follow means to do as He does. As long as one follows Jesus, He WILL give them eternal life and they will never perish. There is no doubt about this.
But we MUST be a sheep of Jesus and follow Him in order to receive eternal life.
Just as He said in John 10:27-28

You even wrote and told me you weren't interested in verse 27, which is interesting...aren't you interested in context? Verse 28 is speaking of someone. Verse 27 tells us who.

Once again, this is no exegesis of v.28. And again, v.27 provides NO CONDITION for never perishing in v.28.

The only acknowledgement of v.28 was this: "Jesus never misspoke. To those whom He gives eternal life, THEY shall never perish."

But that wasn't the entire verse. And there was NO explanation of what Jesus meant by the fact that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

However, by acknowledging at least that is what Jesus said, please explain HOW any recipient of eternal life CAN perish when Jesus said they shall NEVER perish.

3. You insist that Jesus gives us no conditions in John 10:28. I've listed a few.
I've replied to all your requests, not how about explaining the following conditions to salvation for all of us reading along?:

There are conditions, as I've quoted before. Here are some:
Mathew 25:34-46
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:48
Mathew 7:23
John 14:15
John 5:28-29

It would be appreciated.

I've already commented on this supposed list, but why didn't Jesus list them IN v.28? That's where they SHOULD BE, IF they are conditions for never perishing.

I asked to list all the conditions IN v.28 in order for recipients to never perish. And I get a list from other passages. They CANNOT be conditions related to anything in v.28 because NONE of these conditions were included in v.28.

My point remains: there are NO CONDITIONS in v.28 regarding how to never perish.

IOW, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS in the MOST IMPORTANT verse on how to never perish.

If any of the verses listed here DID relate to how to never perish, Jesus would have HAD to include them in v.28.

To not include ANY conditions would have been worse than negligent. The verse LACKS any conditions, so if conditions must be met, what Jesus said cannot be correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10:27 clearly mentions sheep that follow.

Clearly it does. No argument. Just as clear is the fact that there are no words in either v.28 or v.28 that indicate that there is anything in v.27 that is a condition for never perishing.

In fact, the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is found in v.28: "I give them eternal life". There it is.

Once a recipient of eternal life, shall never perish.

I also believe only those will be saved who've elected not just to believe but also follow . Obviously we have different interpretations for John 10: 27.

No, v.27 has never been the issue. v.28 has NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Or, said another way, the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to be a recipient of eternal life.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Perhaps you will seek out the answer so as to understand.

It's not hard to understand what the bible has to say about rejecting Jesus Christ and worshiping the antichrist.


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:11-12

Worshiping the antichrist will get you the wrath of God.



Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36

Rejecting Jesus Christ will get you the wrath of God.



What I don't understand is how you could believe a born again Christian is still saved who worships the antichrist and rejects Jesus, when the bible says those who do those things will receive God's wrath?




ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

I'll take that as a 'yes' answer to my question; "Does not the "other sheep" referenced in v16 refer to His sheep also, people like you and me?"

Let's read v 16 together and answer a question about what it states:
Who brings these "other sheep" in?

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[b] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:16-28


Verse 16 says that Jesus brings them in.


The other sheep were brought in by Jesus through the Apostles being sent out to spread the Gospel.





ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

You should start to read this thread from page 1 then. Because you'll find those that think in order to stay saved you have to work.

Maybe you point me to the post of someone who says "in order to stay saved you have to work".




ME

 

[UberMink]

I think what is appalling is that there are believers who believe that those who have been given eternal life CAN perish in spite of the fact that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER perish.

Well put!

 

[UberMink]

Yeah. You are reading them in error.

OK. Thank you.

 

[UberMink]

It's not hard to understand what the bible has to say about rejecting Jesus Christ and worshiping the antichrist.


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:11-12

Worshiping the antichrist will get you the wrath of God.



Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36

Rejecting Jesus Christ will get you the wrath of God.



What I don't understand is how you could believe a born again Christian is still saved who worships the antichrist and rejects Jesus, when the bible says those who do those things will receive God's wrath?




ME

You don't understand what I never stated so that is then the explanation for your confusion when you interject the anti-christ into this discussion.
As I said earlier, perhaps you will seek understanding so as to appear lacking thus far. May God guide your way.

 

[chessman]

The other sheep were brought in by Jesus

Will the other sheep, brought in by Jesus, be saved?

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. And he will go in and go out, and he will find pasture.​

John 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 10:9&version=DLNT

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"I've been paying attention to a possible exegesis of John 10:28 from you. Maybe I missed your question, but I'm sure everyone knows my position, which comes from what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Once a person is given eternal life, they shall never perish. There are no conditions that recipients must meet in order to never perish.

What about the refusal to exegete John 10:28? Or is it just an inability.

Either way, if an exegesis of that single verse isn't forthcoming, there is no reason to continue."

And this response:

Why use my quote from above to the comment above. They aren't related. I was still asking for an exegesis of v.28 which still hasn't been provided.


Again, I think it is appalling that some believers think that those who have been given eternal life CAN perish, in spite of the FACT that Jesus said those he gives eteranl life shall NEVER perish. A total disconnect.


Once again, this is no exegesis of v.28. And again, v.27 provides NO CONDITION for never perishing in v.28.

The only acknowledgement of v.28 was this: "Jesus never misspoke. To those whom He gives eternal life, THEY shall never perish."

But that wasn't the entire verse. And there was NO explanation of what Jesus meant by the fact that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

However, by acknowledging at least that is what Jesus said, please explain HOW any recipient of eternal life CAN perish when Jesus said they shall NEVER perish.


I've already commented on this supposed list, but why didn't Jesus list them IN v.28? That's where they SHOULD BE, IF they are conditions for never perishing.

I asked to list all the conditions IN v.28 in order for recipients to never perish. And I get a list from other passages. They CANNOT be conditions related to anything in v.28 because NONE of these conditions were included in v.28.

My point remains: there are NO CONDITIONS in v.28 regarding how to never perish.

IOW, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS in the MOST IMPORTANT verse on how to never perish.

If any of the verses listed here DID relate to how to never perish, Jesus would have HAD to include them in v.28.

To not include ANY conditions would have been worse than negligent. The verse LACKS any conditions, so if conditions must be met, what Jesus said cannot be correct.

You call Jesus negligent because He dispersed the conditions for salvation throughout His discourses instead of neatly placing them at John 10:28

The Bible is a complete thought. It's a good idea to read it all, from beginning to end and not cherry pick verses, especially the same ones and especially since I've shown how continued belief is necessary for salvation.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Will the other sheep, brought in by Jesus, be saved?

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. And he will go in and go out, and he will find pasture.​

John 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 10:9&version=DLNT

Chessman you and FG and some others keep insisting that it's belief which saves . No obedience needed for salvation. Faith is enough, even if there is no obedience . The OSAS doctrine . Now if what you guys say is the truth how come the Lord Himself does not counsel that to two persons who ask Him " What must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Study Christ's answer diligently.
Why didn't Christ simply say BELIEVE IN ME. but yet He didn't . Instead he pointed at obedience. Why? Does Jesus have different rules for salvation for different people or is the easy believism doctrine nothing but HERESY as I believe it is. Would appreciate all easy believism doctrine proponents to reply to this . Thank you.
Here are the two parables which Jesus Himself taught
Mark 10:17-31 (NIV)

The Rich and the Kingdom of God

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”


Luke 10:25-37 New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Why did Christ say only those who do the will of Father God are His ( Jesus') brothers and sisters? To me it's crystal clear ,those who don't do it are NOT his brothers and sisters . Then how come easy believism saves. Christ is again not mentioning" belief will save you" doctrine . Why?

Mark 3: 31-35
31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[GodsGrace]

The mistake works salvation proponents make is to first renounce what Jesus taught about faith and grace.
Then to pursue what is entirely a humanist ideology that works to convince others and purports to teach that human will saves or damns.
If we could work to save ourselves Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross. Salvation is the gift of God's grace.

This is where the Humanist school of neo-xtianity fails and because its followers don't understand. God knew who would follow his son before he created the world. He knew us and he called us by name. That's in the Old and the New Testaments.

Now, when God, contrary to Humanist teaching or thought, knows more than humans do and is more powerful in his will than we are in ours, says he knew who would come to Jesus , those sheep that would know Jesus' voice and follow him, before God created the world those sheep would later inhabit, that means exactly what God said. God KNEW US FIRST!
And being he's God he also foreknew those among us who would fall from the path of righteousness due to whatever. And yet, being God is all knowing about all things, he still wrote our names in the book that contains those names he knew and then called to his son. That book too was written before the foundation of this world.
God forgives! It is man that does not. But God does. And God knows that there will be that Christian that will lose their way from time to time. Because we're lesser beings than God. That doesn't mean God abandons us because we think we can leave him. God knew our future before we came to exist. Just because we leave God doesn't mean God leaves us.

God came to us with his free gift of eternal salvation because he gave his grace to the world. Then he retracts his grace because we turn obstinate and reject it? God knew his sheep in before the beginning. That means everything.
We don't work to stay saved. That's anti-christ doctine. That revokes everything Jesus died on the cross to guarantee in the new covenant God made with his people.

Now, don't get me wrong. Those who think they have to labor to stay saved should work it!
But for sure don't think to convince those who know the scriptures and the covenantal promise Jesus died for to follow you.

Oh yeah, this is Theology forum so scriptural support is needed. 17 Verses to support the truth of eternal salvation.

Now let those who teach a different way show those scriptures that say, salvation is not a free gift of God's grace. And secondly, that verse that says, God's gifts and calling are revocable.
If we're to share scriptures to support the Gospel, those who contend against it are beholding to follow the same rules.

Some here are not beholding to follow any rules since I've asked questions to which I receive no reply.

You have many misconception about salvation. You accept Jesus as your Savior but you don't accept Him as your Lord.

Works DO NOT save us. We could work all we want to, it will not bring to salvation.
John 3:3 "Unless one is born of above, he cannot see the Kingdom of God"
What does born of above mean? Does it mean to work? No. It means that our spirit must become united with God's spirit. Jesus must give us the life that is in Him.
John 1:4
John 1:9
Jesus is the light. Without this light we are dead in spirit.

After we are born again and belong to the Kingdom of God it is necessary for us to behave as Jesus instructed, and also Paul.

Sinners do not have to obey God. They are already lost.
Born again persons do have to obey God, God has always demanded obedience to Him.
Jesus said that to love Him is to obey Him.
John 14:15
If we love Jesus we must obey His commandments.

It's apparent that there are mistakes in the osas idea. Two posters on this very thread have declared that they can live a future as they wish and still be saved. One said he can sin HABITUALLY and still be saved.

This is NOT what Jesus taught.

Jesus said:
John 5:28-29
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

And Jesus said:

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Those who live a life of sin will not enter heaven.
Osas teaches that one can do what he wills and have nothing to fear.
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. A healthy fear of God is good and keeps us wise.
Proverbs 9:10

 

[FreeGrace]

You call Jesus negligent because He dispersed the conditions for salvation throughout His discourses instead of neatly placing them at John 10:28

No, I've never disparaged Jesus for anything. It's the pov of OSNAS that has done that to Jesus.

The Bible is a complete thought.

Of course it is. But it seems the "lecture" to me is that context DOESN'T MATTER. Well, it doesn't work that way. Context DOES MATTER. Very much. It's HOW we understand Scripture.

One can pretty much prove almost anything they want to by selectively picking verses out of context and piecing them together.

It's a good idea to read it all, from beginning to end and not cherry pick verses, especially the same ones and especially since I've shown how continued belief is necessary for salvation.[/QUOTE]
If continued belief was necessary for salvation, Jesus would have made that point IN John 10:28.

I will provide an exegesis to show that John 10:28a speaks of eternal security, or OSAS. I will number each point for easy reference for those who wish to address my exegesis.

1. v.28a contains 2 phrases. 1st phrase: “I give them eternal life”. 2nd phrase: “and they shall never perish”.
2. The 1st phrase states the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself. He gives eternal life; therefore He is the CAUSE of possession of it.
3. The 2nd phrase is the DIRECT EFFECT of the possession of eternal life: recipients shall never perish.
4. So, v.28a provides a CAUSE and EFFECT statement. Jesus is the CAUSE of possession of eternal life, and the EFFECT of possessing eternal life is never perishing.
5. The “them” in the 1st phrase refers back to v.27 and “My sheep”.
6. In v.27 Jesus describes His sheep as those who “listen”, those who He “knows” and those who “follow Him”.
7. John quotes Jesus in earlier verses teaching that those who believe in Him possess eternal life. John 5:24 and 6:47 say this directly.
8. So we know that v.27 isn’t a condition for receiving eternal life, but a description of what His sheep do. Not how they become His sheep.
9. We know HOW one becomes His sheep from John 10:9 - “I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved.” In many other verses, the way to be saved is by believing in Jesus Christ.
10. Therefore, the sheep of v.27 are believers.
11. Therefore, believers are given eternal life.
12. Therefore, from 5:24 and 6:47, believers are given eternal life WHEN they believe, since there are no verses that speak of receiving the gift of eternal life any time AFTER believing in Christ.
13. Therefore, the 2nd phrase of v.28a becomes truth WHEN one initially believes in Christ.
14. Therefore, WHEN one initially believes in Christ, they shall never perish.

I am giving the opportunity for OSNAS doctrine to defend their position by refuting my position, which is OSAS.

I’ve made it extremely easy by numbering all my points.

If OSNAS is biblical truth, then it will be very easy to refute my points, which would have to be biblically untrue.

If OSAS is not biblically true, then at least most of my points must be in error.

Refutation of my points is not done by ignoring the points and merely quoting verses/passages from other contexts, passages and books. That’s just talking over my points.

In order to refute one’s pov, one must engage my pov, by addressing the points I’ve made.

ps: I'm just as concerned about being right as anyone from the OSNAS position. So this is an opportunity to show me my error by addressing these points and explaining how the points are incorrect.

 

[FreeGrace]

Chessman you and FG and some others keep insisting that it's belief which saves .

Because that's what the Bible says.

No obedience needed for salvation.

To obey the gospel is to believe the gospel.

Faith is enough, even if there is no obedience .

Then was Paul's answer to the curious jailer incomplete or dishonest?
Acts 16 -
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

If your claim were right, Paul should have said "believe and obey the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". But he didn't.

The OSAS doctrine .

Not really. There are OSNAS people who also believe that one is saved by faith alone. And then they add a bunch of conditions in order to stay saved.

Now if what you guys say is the truth how come the Lord Himself does not counsel that to two persons who ask Him " What must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Study Christ's answer diligently.
Why didn't Christ simply say BELIEVE IN ME. but yet He didn't . Instead he pointed at obedience. Why? Does Jesus have different rules for salvation for different people or is the easy believism doctrine nothing but HERESY as I believe it is. Would appreciate all easy believism doctrine proponents to reply to this . Thank you.

The whole interaction with the rich young man/ruler was about what is necessary to come to faith. And the man wasn't ready. He was greedy. iow, he was trusting in his own riches. He thought that was enough.

Here are the two parables which Jesus Himself taught
Mark 10:17-31 (NIV)
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”
24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Luke 10:25-37 New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Using parables to teach doctrine is quite an iffy thing. Why did Jesus use parables? To KEEP truth from those who weren't interested in it.

Even His own disciples (the 12) didn't understand them. So rather than lean on parables, why not just lean on verses that speak plainly?

Though, if one does, they know that there are no verses that plainly say that salvation can be lost, or that one must believe and obey in order to be saved.

I will provide an exegesis to show that John 10:28a speaks of eternal security, or OSAS. I will number each point for easy reference for those who wish to address my exegesis.

1. v.28a contains 2 phrases. 1st phrase: “I give them eternal life”. 2nd phrase: “and they shall never perish”.
2. The 1st phrase states the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Jesus Christ Himself. He gives eternal life; therefore He is the CAUSE of possession of it.
3. The 2nd phrase is the DIRECT EFFECT of the possession of eternal life: recipients shall never perish.
4. So, v.28a provides a CAUSE and EFFECT statement. Jesus is the CAUSE of possession of eternal life, and the EFFECT of possessing eternal life is never perishing.
5. The “them” in the 1st phrase refers back to v.27 and “My sheep”.
6. In v.27 Jesus describes His sheep as those who “listen”, those who He “knows” and those who “follow Him”.
7. John quotes Jesus in earlier verses teaching that those who believe in Him possess eternal life. John 5:24 and 6:47 say this directly.
8. So we know that v.27 isn’t a condition for receiving eternal life, but a description of what His sheep do. Not how they become His sheep.
9. We know HOW one becomes His sheep from John 10:9 - “I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved.” In many other verses, the way to be saved is by believing in Jesus Christ.
10. Therefore, the sheep of v.27 are believers.
11. Therefore, believers are given eternal life.
12. Therefore, from 5:24 and 6:47, believers are given eternal life WHEN they believe, since there are no verses that speak of receiving the gift of eternal life any time AFTER believing in Christ.
13. Therefore, the 2nd phrase of v.28a becomes truth WHEN one initially believes in Christ.
14. Therefore, WHEN one initially believes in Christ, they shall never perish.

I am giving the opportunity for OSNAS doctrine to defend their position by refuting my position, which is OSAS.

I’ve made it extremely easy by numbering all my points.

If OSNAS is biblical truth, then it will be very easy to refute my points, which would have to be biblically untrue.

If OSAS is not biblically true, then at least most of my points must be in error.

Refutation of my points is not done by ignoring the points and merely quoting verses/passages from other contexts, passages and books. That’s just talking over my points.

In order to refute one’s pov, one must engage my pov, by addressing the points I’ve made.