Forum Poll

[FreeGrace]

Why did Christ say only those who do the will of Father God are His ( Jesus') brothers and sisters? To me it's crystal clear ,those who don't do it are NOT his brothers and sisters . Then how come easy believism saves.

I'm happy to answer this question. The Bible SAYS SO.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Here are 24 verses that address salvation and eternal life. Please count all the verses that include obedience. But I'll save the time. There are NONE.

Christ is again not mentioning" belief will save you" doctrine . Why?

Not true. Just read the verses above again.

Mark 3: 31-35
31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

OK, from v.34, let's see what the Bible says about "God's will". (hint: it is in the list of verses I just gave)

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who live a life of sin will not enter heaven.

This keeps coming up. So let's consider what it really means.

How many sins did Jesus Christ for? All? Most? Many? Some? A few?

Here's the point: the Bible says that Christ died for sins "once for all". That means one time for all sins.

So, since Christ died for all sins, how can a "life a sin" be an issue?

Osas teaches that one can do what he wills and have nothing to fear.

Please cease from making statements about you seem to know nothing about. OSAS teaches that one's security is firm, BUT, there will be loss of blessings and reward for the disobedient believer and painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for them.

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. A healthy fear of God is good and keeps us wise.
Proverbs 9:10

Amen. And the biblical OSAS doctrine understands this perfectly well. So please cease from making false statements.

 

[GodsGrace]

This keeps coming up. So let's consider what it really means.

How many sins did Jesus Christ for? All? Most? Many? Some? A few?

Here's the point: the Bible says that Christ died for sins "once for all". That means one time for all sins.

So, since Christ died for all sins, how can a "life a sin" be an issue?


Please cease from making statements about you seem to know nothing about. OSAS teaches that one's security is firm, BUT, there will be loss of blessings and reward for the disobedient believer and painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for them.


Amen. And the biblical OSAS doctrine understands this perfectly well. So please cease from making false statements.

And therein lies the osas problem.
You said:
Here's the point: the Bible says that Christ died for sins "once for all". That means one time for all sins.

So, since Christ died for all sins, how can a "life a sin" be an issue?

A life of sin IS AN ISSUE.
Sin will not enter into heaven.

 

[chessman]

You never answered Yet keep asking a question that has been answered already.

What leads you to believe that “Salvation is not a "done deal" until you die”, since the passage referenced says nothing about death?

The passage supposedly supporting the point being made (salvation isn’t done until you die) was as follows, in case you’ve forgotten:

1 Cor 15:1-2 (in any translation you prefer)

Why didn't Christ simply say BELIEVE IN ME.

I have answered this question as has FG several times already.

Jesus hadn’t risen from the dead yet.
Nor had the Holy Spirit been poured out so that people could be born from above (born again) by believing in the Gospel .

I’m with Paul’s point that if Jesus’s claim to be God hadn’t been proven True by His resurrection (which hadn’t occurred yet during His conversation with the Rich Man), then believing in the Gospel proclamation (His divinity and incarnation and death and resurrection from the dead) for one’s salvation is empty.

And if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is also empty; your faith is also empty ; and we are even found to be false-witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He did raise Christ— Whom He did not raise if-indeed then dead ones are not raised.​

1 Corinthians 15:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:14-15&version=DLNT

Jesus said what He did in John 14:6 because it’s true. He then went on to prove it’s true via The Father’s acceptance of His perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Which is how I already answered your question (twice already), then asked you a follow-up question which you answered with an answer (‘it’s impossible’) that directly contradicts the Text:

Did Jesus tell His disciples that the rich man will or will not enter Heaven in the passage you brought up below (it’s a simple question):
Matthew 19:23 -

If you call Jesus “good”, why do you call Him good given that no one is good but God?
My answer is because I believe He is God, thus good. Which should have been the Rich Man’s answer to Jesus’s question. Instead, he just ignored Jesus’s question.

Unfortunatly, like yourself, The rich man never answered Jesus’s question. Maybe if he had, Jesus would have given him the Gospel in plain words for him to believed in for salvation.

18 “Why do you call me good?”

what’s your answer to the question above ?

But he wanted to justify himself,

See, Jesus explained what the man lacked for salvation. Namely a belief in Him (God) with ALL his heart. The Rich Man had self-justification in his heart. As many still do today. It’s a pity really.

They both are examples of holding-fast self-justification rather than holding fast to the Gospel.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Will the other sheep, brought in by Jesus, be saved?

I am the door. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. And he will go in and go out, and he will find pasture.​

John 10:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 10:9&version=DLNT

Yes according to John 10:9 anyone who enters through Christ will be saved.

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9


Searching out to examine what is required after a person is born again, is what I believe we are discussing.


I believe of the qualifying requirements of entering and being His sheep and receiving eternal life are mentioned in the following verses.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


It seems that entering is the point at which we are born again, and hearing and following, and knowing Him are the requirement for being given eternal life, which indicates a continuing faith.

The way I understand it, a born again Christian who rejects Jesus Christ along the journey of following Him, and serves another lord, can't possibly receive the forgiveness of sins from another god.

How can a person who has rejected Jesus Christ, to serve another lord, still continue to receive the forgiveness of sins?




ME

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes according to John 10:9 anyone who enters through Christ will be saved.

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9


Searching out to examine what is required after a person is born again, is what I believe we are discussing.


I believe of the qualifying requirements of entering and being His sheep and receiving eternal life are mentioned in the following verses.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


It seems that entering is the point at which we are born again, and hearing and following, and knowing Him are the requirement for being given eternal life, which indicates a continuing faith.

The way I understand it, a born again Christian who rejects Jesus Christ along the journey of following Him, and serves another lord, can't possibly receive the forgiveness of sins from another god.

How can a person who has rejected Jesus Christ, to serve another lord, still continue to receive the forgiveness of sins?




ME

Amen.
Just to add: It could be to serve another God, at which point it would have to be a false God.
Or, it could be to abandon God. To abandon God means to lose faith in Christ, to stop believing in Him, to fall away, to return to a life of sin.
Some here believe we could abandon God and yet still be saved.
Life is in Jesus. If we leave Jesus, we lose eternal life because it is only in Him.
Acts 16:30
What must we do to be saved?
BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus.

Believe mean to trust and obey.

 

[Maria E Abreu]

You don't understand what I never stated so that is then the explanation for your confusion when you interject the anti-christ into this discussion.
As I said earlier, perhaps you will seek understanding so as to appear lacking thus far. May God guide your way.

I hope and pray He guides you as well.


This discussion is anchored in the question from the forum poll, that says.

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?

I noticed you answered yes to that question.


Could you please explain to me how you came to this conclusion?



ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Amen.
Just to add: It could be to serve another God, at which point it would have to be a false God.
Or, it could be to abandon God. To abandon God means to lose faith in Christ, to stop believing in Him, to fall away, to return to a life of sin.
Some here believe we could abandon God and yet still be saved.
Life is in Jesus. If we leave Jesus, we lose eternal life because it is only in Him.
Acts 16:30
What must we do to be saved?
BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus.

Believe mean to trust and obey.

Amen. Your post's are simple and to the point.


Thanks



ME

 

[FreeGrace]

And therein lies the osas problem.
You said:
Here's the point: the Bible says that Christ died for sins "once for all". That means one time for all sins.

So, since Christ died for all sins, how can a "life a sin" be an issue?

A life of sin IS AN ISSUE.
Sin will not enter into heaven.

First, this was my question:
"How many sins did Jesus Christ for? All? Most? Many? Some? A few?"

But...no answer to my question. [edited]

The statement about "sin not entering into heaven" is irrelevant, since no one has claimed that it will.

In fact, we know that sin cannot enter heaven, since at physical death, our soul/spirit will be removed from our corrupted body of flesh. We will be forever separated from it.

So now, can we please get back to my question.

Since Christ died for all sins, it CANNOT be an issue regarding entering heaven.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm not championing legalism but highlighting that obedience is vital to salvation as faith and baptism are too. Adam n Eve willfully disobeyed. Nt and OT are still part of God's word. By calling it legslism, obedience is ignored

I am an Eternal Security believer. But I'm fully agreeing with the idea you detail here. Obedience is evidence of regeneration. Jesus says if you love Him you will obey His commandments. The NT is full of examples of commands (not suggestions folks) of how we ought to live.

We are not saved by our works but that doesn't preclude our doing them. We are saved unto good works!

A follower of Jesus follows. They don't walk away. If they do, they aren't (and never were) true followers. They were fans. ;)

 

[Papa Zoom]

And once again I will say that the poll is deeply flawed
Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.

Here's a poll for you that is similar in its flaw:

Do you still beat your wife or have do you no longer beat her?

*Still beat her
*Don't beat her

What's missing in the poll? See? It's deliberately limiting and designed to misrepresent other views on Eternal Security. I cannot really answer this poll because it doesn't allow for my view. So the OP itself is a caricature because it deliberately ignores any middle ground or alternative positions. (like mine)

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Here is the question about OSAS or OSNAS.
When do we become sinners, at birth or some later date? I didn't asked when is sin imputed, but when do we become sinners. If it is at birth then committing sin doesn't cause us to have a spirit that is not conscious of God, we were born with it. If it is after we reach a certain age, then what about those sins committed before that age; how are we not accountable for those? Doesn't scripture teach that all sin must be atoned for?

Did not God include all under sin? Is it ever stated in scripture that all are responsible for their sin except? Here lies the dilemma as to what constitutes an alienated person(sinner) from God. If it is a decree from God that makes us sinners then it can't be that we are sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners. If Christ Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, as according to scripture, then what is the sin that we commit that condemns us? It is not the sin of unbelief at death that is the only condemnation? Where in scripture do we find that if we commit murder we become sinners, or if we rob someone we become sinner? No where, these are the deeds of the life of sinners. People commit these deeds because of their nature to sin.

If when we become believers, that sin of unbelief has been removed and we are sealed by the Spirit, who on earth is more powerful than the Holy Spirit and can break His seal? The only one that has that power is Jesus Christ. We find in Revelation the seals that are on "the title deed" to this earth, that were put there by God, Jesus Christ the risen savior is the only one that has the power to break those seals.

Scripture tells us that the death of the old man renders him powerless and our new life in Christ is lived by Him through us. There are two critical judgment; the cross of calvary and the white throne judgment. If you have faith in the cross of calvary , then you are safe from the white throng. judgment.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am an Eternal Security believer. But I'm fully agreeing with the idea you detail here. Obedience is evidence of regeneration. Jesus says if you love Him you will obey His commandments. The NT is full of examples of commands (not suggestions folks) of how we ought to live.

We are not saved by our works but that doesn't preclude our doing them. We are saved unto good works!

A follower of Jesus follows. They don't walk away. If they do, they aren't (and never were) true followers. They were fans. ;)

The problem I'm seeing in this thread and others, is that some persons who believe in osas state that the life they live does not matter. But it's impossible to back this up because neither Jesus nor Paul said this. They both exhorted us to have good behavior and live as Jesus would want us to.

 

[gr8grace3]

The problem I'm seeing in this thread and others, is that some persons who believe in osas state that the life they live does not matter.

I have seen no one here that believes the above.

Most of us have a measly 60 to 90 years on this earth. And how we live as believers is VITAL as to how we will spend ETERNITY with Him. VITAL.

How we live our lives after we are saved determines our rank,role,reign and things that we can't even imagine while we are here on this earth. It seems that many here don't count this as much?!

If we stay in 'basic training' our whole lives and never advance in the Christian way of life.......we miss out on great possibilities for ETERNITY. The consequences are tremendous! Why is this not seen? And why is it equated to losing a lollipop?

His discipline is being ignored. Heb 12:5.

And the fact that we lose ETERNAL rewards is ignored........... These are miserable, tremendous consequences if we don't obey Him after salvation! 2 John 1:8.

But His free gift remains for ALL those who have trusted in Christ ALONE. Acts 16:31, Rom 11:9.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have seen no one here that believes the above.

Most of us have a measly 60 to 90 years on this earth. And how we live as believers is VITAL as to how we will spend ETERNITY with Him. VITAL.

How we live our lives after we are saved determines our rank,role,reign and things that we can't even imagine while we are here on this earth. It seems that many here don't count this as much?!

If we stay in 'basic training' our whole lives and never advance in the Christian way of life.......we miss out on great possibilities for ETERNITY. The consequences are tremendous! Why is this not seen? And why is it equated to losing a lollipop?

His discipline is being ignored. Heb 12:5.

And the fact that we lose ETERNAL rewards is ignored........... These are miserable, tremendous consequences if we don't obey Him after salvation! 2 John 1:8.

But His free gift remains for ALL those who have trusted in Christ ALONE. Acts 16:31, Rom 11:9.

GR
I don't know about this rewards idea.
Jesus came here to show us how to avoid hell and make it to heaven...not to show us how to get rewards.
What scripture do you use?

 

[Papa Zoom]

The problem I'm seeing in this thread and others, is that some persons who believe in osas state that the life they live does not matter. But it's impossible to back this up because neither Jesus nor Paul said this. They both exhorted us to have good behavior and live as Jesus would want us to.

Exactly. They cannot support the idea biblically that how we live our lives doesn't matter but we can support biblically that it does matter.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly. They cannot support the idea biblically that how we live our lives doesn't matter but we can support biblically that it does matter.

Like.

 

[Papa Zoom]

John 14
…22Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. 24Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.…

So, He who keeps His word, love Him. He who does not keep His words, does not love Him.

simple ;) At least it seems this way to me. I can't imagine what I'm missing. Jesus said those words himself so it's not me saying it.

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death."

So if one doesn't keep His word, they WILL see death. Trust and Obey peeps!

 

[FreeGrace]

Rajesh Sahu said:
"I'm not championing legalism but highlighting that obedience is vital to salvation as faith and baptism are too. Adam n Eve willfully disobeyed. Nt and OT are still part of God's word. By calling it legslism, obedience is ignored"

I am an Eternal Security believer. But I'm fully agreeing with the idea you detail here.

I would "second" that agreement. It seems that OSNAS doctrine thinks that OSAS means there are no laws or commands needed to obey, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

I've certainly beat the drums for the absolute need for believers to be obedient. But it's not for salvation, or to maintain salvation. That's where OSNAS goes off the rails. OSNAS seems to ignore the biblical teaching of earning rewards and blessings (Isa 1:18-20) and painful discipline for rebellion (Heb 12:11). All that is included in OSAS.

Obedience is evidence of regeneration.

While it is, obedience to laws don't prove it. There are many unbelievers who are quite moral in their lives. Even atheists can and do live quite moral lives. And morality comes from God.

Jesus says if you love Him you will obey His commandments. The NT is full of examples of commands (not suggestions folks) of how we ought to live.

Absolutely! But none of these commands make the leap to "how to maintain" one's salvation, or "how not to lose" one's salvation.

We are not saved by our works but that doesn't preclude our doing them. We are saved unto good works!

Correct!

A follower of Jesus follows. They don't walk away. If they do, they aren't (and never were) true followers. They were fans. ;)

Jesus spoke plainly about some who believed and then fell away (second soil). And Paul warned that in later times, many would apostatize in 1 Tim 4:1. And we have an example of such a one in the mentor of Billy Graham, Charles Templeton, an evangelist.

It makes no sense to me that one who didn't really believe the gospel would have spent any amount of time holding crusades, preaching what they do not believe.

He was of the "second soil" type. He believed for a while, and in time of testing, he fell away. Luke 8:13

 

[UberMink]

I hope and pray He guides you as well.

Amen.

This discussion is anchored in the question from the forum poll, that says.





I noticed you answered yes to that question.


Could you please explain to me how you came to this conclusion?



ME

No, I think not.
When postings I have contributed to date do not inform, nor do those that sustain those postings and as shared by other members, do not serve to enlighten, it is what it is. God's will be done.