Maria E Abreu
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Maria E Abreu
Member
The Sheep of John 10, to me, refers to His 12 disciples.
The Sheep are given to Jesus, for the purpose of spreading the Gospel that was taught to them directly by Jesus.
The Sheep given to Jesus by His Father does not refer to "chosen or given for salvation".
That's the way I see it.
ME
Maria E Abreu
Member
chessman
Member
Even theses?
And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring those also. And they will hear My voice. And they will become one flock, [with] one Shepherd.
John 10:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 10:16&version=DLNTWhat's appalling is that school of thought that hopes to convince those who are in Christ that they're not eternally secure as Christ led them to believe.
The mistake works salvation proponents make is to first renounce what Jesus taught about faith and grace.
Then to pursue what is entirely a humanist ideology that works to convince others and purports to teach that human will saves or damns.
If we could work to save ourselves Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross. Salvation is the gift of God's grace.
This is where the Humanist school of neo-xtianity fails and because its followers don't understand. God knew who would follow his son before he created the world. He knew us and he called us by name. That's in the Old and the New Testaments.
Now, when God, contrary to Humanist teaching or thought, knows more than humans do and is more powerful in his will than we are in ours, says he knew who would come to Jesus , those sheep that would know Jesus' voice and follow him, before God created the world those sheep would later inhabit, that means exactly what God said. God KNEW US FIRST!
And being he's God he also foreknew those among us who would fall from the path of righteousness due to whatever. And yet, being God is all knowing about all things, he still wrote our names in the book that contains those names he knew and then called to his son. That book too was written before the foundation of this world.
God forgives! It is man that does not. But God does. And God knows that there will be that Christian that will lose their way from time to time. Because we're lesser beings than God. That doesn't mean God abandons us because we think we can leave him. God knew our future before we came to exist. Just because we leave God doesn't mean God leaves us.
God came to us with his free gift of eternal salvation because he gave his grace to the world. Then he retracts his grace because we turn obstinate and reject it? God knew his sheep in before the beginning. That means everything.
We don't work to stay saved. That's anti-christ doctine. That revokes everything Jesus died on the cross to guarantee in the new covenant God made with his people.
Now, don't get me wrong. Those who think they have to labor to stay saved should work it!
But for sure don't think to convince those who know the scriptures and the covenantal promise Jesus died for to follow you.
Oh yeah, this is Theology forum so scriptural support is needed. 17 Verses to support the truth of eternal salvation.
Now let those who teach a different way show those scriptures that say, salvation is not a free gift of God's grace. And secondly, that verse that says, God's gifts and calling are revocable.
If we're to share scriptures to support the Gospel, those who contend against it are beholding to follow the same rules.
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You do know that Paul was inspired and is speaking the Masters words......Right?
Jesus Christ alluded to it in the Gospel of John but didn't reveal it until Paul. For the most part it was kept hidden until Paul.....mystery doctrine.
Eph 3~~1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;~~9~~ 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
2 Pet 3:16~~
New American Standard Bible
as also in all his(Paul) letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What's appauling is to lead persons to believe they could live a life of sin and still be saved.
Well, If you were born again at some time you are still saved, Rom 11:29 . You might not believe it, and a lot of self righteous "workers for" might try to tell you you lost salvation. But there are many,many warnings to us for possible discipline and loss of eternal rewards if we continue in rebellion to Him.
Heb 12:7~~
New American Standard Bible
It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
2 John 1:8~~
New American Standard Bible
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
But eternal security is based upon His Grace, His virtue,His Character, His promises, His Justice and His righteousness.
Having Adams sin imputed to us at birth is GRACE. That means the moment we are born we are savable. Baby's, mentally ill people and those who never figure out the right from their left are safe. God can impute Christ's righteousness to them and save them without impugning His Justice and righteousness.
[edited] Those who are in Christ don't make a habit of sinning. Those who purposefully continue to sin, such as those that speak a contrary teaching to that of God's grace and eternal life, salvation, through Christ, never knew God.
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Verse 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
If someone falls away, they're not un-born of God. God forgives repentance.
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him.
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Maria E Abreu
Member
As you very well know, that is the verse that I said led me to believe that the sheep of John 10 were referring to His disciples, since verse 16 refers to other sheep.
The ones that the Father gave to Him, were the 12 disciples.
They were given to Him for a purpose, not for salvation.
ME
You're trying to tell us the disciples of Christ weren't saved? And that they were the only one's God gave to Christ?
Maria E Abreu
Member
I dont know of anyone who believes that we are saved by works.
So our will to choose to believe or not, never comes into play?
Where does it say this?
ME
Maria E Abreu
Member
Maria E Abreu
Member
The 12 disciples were who was given to Christ by His Father, for the purpose of continue the work of Christ to spread the Gospel.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:6-12
The verse that stands out here concerning this context is verse is verse 12.
Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
This verse is a reference to the 12 disciples, because Judas was the only one of the 12 who was lost.
ME
If we grow in the knowledge and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will humbly fall to our knees and see that we DO live in a life of sin.
We may have a nice tidy, clean house on the outside and have all those overt sins done and dealt with. But if we truly take an objective look at ourselves through the lense of His word and His holiness. We all would admit that we live in sin and HABITUALLY live in sin.
Every thought has to be pure and perfect.
Every decision has to be right and perfect.
We have to physically be in the right place, at the right time, all the time and perfectly.
No worry.
No guilt.
Always be in the Spirit.
Always be walking in the Spirit.
Never miss the opportunity to do divine good and execute every detail of that divine good work perfectly.
Everything,everything is through faith.
What is appalling are those who think not living a life of sin is morality, and the minute amount of sin they have stopped. And never realize just how sinful they really are.
1 Tim 1:15~~New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
Well, lots of things wrong with that what you claim there.
Your premise is contradicted by the later part where you claim Judas was lost. That "verse that stands out" concerning the 12? You're thinking God who knows all things gave a son of perdition to Jesus in the beginning. As if it was a surprise to God that what came to pass through Judas actions later on.
Jesus kept them, the 12, which included Judas, in God's name. That's in the scripture.
The son of perdition, Judas, was one that acted to fulfill the scripture.
People think "none of them is lost except the son of perdition", means Judas died and went to Hell. No, he didn't. Judas was forgiven by Christ on the cross when Christ forgave everyone responsible for his being nailed there because , 'they know not what they do'. Judas in his lament in the scripture said , realized, he had betrayed innocent blood when he identified the Rabbi Jesus to the temple heads, the Pharisee, for 30 pieces of silver.
He was lost from the 12 because he killed himself. Fulfilling the prophecy that anyone who dies hanging on a tree is cursed! Judas, being an observant Jew, knew those scriptures. And elected to die that way. Jesus forgave him from the cross because, and this is key, Jesus died on the cross taking upon himself there the sins of the world!
Tell me, how would Jesus have come to arrive on the cross? Had Judas not played the role God chose for him.
Jesus, who was God that knows all things from beginning to end, called Judas to him. Did Judas surprise God with his actions? Did God not see it coming?
How would Jesus have been identified in the garden of Gethsemane were it not for Judas? When Jesus was there praying, knowing his fate to come. And this after Judas received what we today call communion from the hand of Christ himself in that upper room. Before Judas left to go do what Jesus commanded him to do.
So, how would Jesus have fulfilled his own mission were it not for Judas?
Judas was part of God's plan for which Jesus was born.
"We all would admit that we live in sin and HABITUALLY live in sin."
Speak for yourself only please. You're attempting to insist the scriptures that have already been posted concerning those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning, are wrong. And that we do.
Further, you're taking the scripture in 1 Timothy 1:15 out of context to support your false understanding. Paul was speaking as one who was formost of all a sinner. I am, he's identifying himself as fulfilling the context of the term sinner. And he was. He hunted Jews that were apostate as followers of the Christ so that they could be killed. He held Stephen's cloak while Stephen was stoned to death. Yes, Paul was a sinner. "I am" foremost of all sinners.
What you're trying to communicate is that a sinner , who is responsible for the majority text of the New Testament, was chosen by Christ to lead Gentiles to him.
Your argument about us still being sinners is contrary to the good news itself. "we DO live in a life of sin."
We live in a world full of sin. Yes.
But to claim, we DO live in a life of sin, has no right to be all inclusive. "We". No, you! You are speaking. Those are your thoughts. Therefore, you live in a life of sin.
The Bible is very clear as to how a sinner becomes saved. And what that means and how that redemptive process changes the sinner into a saint.
You, live in a life of sin!
Those who are in Christ do not!
1 John 3
The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I agree with you that if one keeps on sinning he cannot be born of the spirit of God.
We have posters here who claim nothing they do in their future life will affect their salvation. This is not true.
Both Jesus and Paul expected us to behave in a Christianly manner.
Philippians 4:8-9 states that we are to look to what is right and practice the things Paul has taught us and that we have seen him live out.
8Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
You make this statement above:
If someone falls away, they're not un-born of God. God forgives repentance.
I don't know what you mean by "God forgives repentance." God EXPECTS repentance. I'm sure you mis-spoke.
As to the statement that if one falls away, they are not unsaved, then why did Paul say this:
Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Or
Hebrews 3:12-19 ESV
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ...
Or
Romans 11:19-22 ESV
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
There are too many verses that contradict osas. How would you exegete and explain away the above? There are many more.
And the imperishable seed you speak of above is referring to Jesus, not to us.
The perishable seed is us and our parents, the imperishable seed is The Christ.
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Maria E Abreu
Member
I never said anything about it being a suprise to God?
Why would you say this?
Judas went to hell.
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:24-26
This passage says it all - from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Unlike the others who were faithful, and went to be with the Lord in heaven when they died.
24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” Matthew 26:24
ME