Forum Poll

[JLB]

Great post civilwarbluff

Unfortunately for you OSAS folks, it’s just another opinion.

Those who believe for a while then reject Christ for another jesus or another gospel, or another lord, have the wrath of God to look forward to.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36 NIV



JLB

 

[JLB]

I had explained this:
"I take his statement of "depart from the faith" to mean leave his saved state, not to cease believing. If he believes that, I disagree."

What part of this isn't clear?

Since it's not physically possible to be unborn, why would it be possible to be unborn spiritually?

There's no logic to your question. The fact is: there are no verses that even suggest that one can be unborn, much less that they can be unborn.

Your theory is full of assumptions and presumptions.

You have already admitted that the answer is yes, the born again person is still saved even though they reject Jesus Christ for another lord.

Plainly enough Jesus says otherwise, but you seem to want to be the loner, so your welcome to your opinion.


We have 5 No’s so far, when are you going to cast your vote yes?


Have you changed your doctrinal belief?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree with this idea. Here's the problem I have with the OP (I voted no by the way)

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.

No. Because you aren't born again if you ever reject Jesus as Lord and Savior. You were a tare among the wheat. A goat among the sheep. You were a fake.

I voted no because it's impossible to be born from above and then walk away. A person who walks away was never born from above.

My position on eternal security combines arguments from both OSAS and OSNAS. Both positions have truth and error in them. The real truth is in the middle.

God saves and God keeps.
Truly saved people are changed inside out by the Power of the Spirit of God.
This change is manifest in words and deeds.
Fruit always follows in a true believers life.
1 Corinthians 13 'Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;
it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails; ............................ '
1 Corinthians 13:4-8 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/1CO.13.4-8

'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. '
Galatians 5:22-26 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/GAL.5.22-26

The Spirit will generate fruit in the lives of TRUE believers. Marginal believers or those who are on fire but their flame burns out are not regenerated. Do people walk away from faith? Yes. But they were never among us to begin with.

Must we endure to the end? Yes and we will because He who began a good work in you IS ABLE to complete it! And He will!

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Colossians 1:10 (NASB)
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every goodwork and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB)
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Jude 1:24 (NASB)
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

I know there are plenty of verses that seem to indicate one can "lose" salvation. But you can't have Jesus keeping you from stumbling and then you also stumble at the same time. God saves. God keeps. We are HIS workmanship. Not our own. In our own strength, we will fail. In HIM, we cannot fail. God is at work in us. It is HIS work that keeps us and that prompts us unto obedience and good works.

God loves a broken and contrite heart:
Psalms 51:17 (NASB)
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

David was a murderer, adulterer, liar, and a host of other things. But he was a man after God's own heart. Why? When confronted with his sin, he was broken over it and confessed with a repentant heart.

Matthew 7:17 (NASB)
So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

Good trees are those truly saved. Bad trees are the unsaved. Many unsaved go to church each week but they are bad trees - goats - tares!

If God changes your heart, your heart will be truly changed. And no one (not even yourself) can snatch you out of His Holy Hands!

I see, so you believe a person no longer has a freewill after they believe and are born again?


Jesus said those who are in Him, can indeed be removed from Him, by His Father.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


Do you believe like FreeGrace, that a person who is removed from Christ still has eternal life, even though they have been disconnected from Him?


JLB

 

[JLB]

No, you cannot lose your salvation.
Hebrews 3:14 clarifies that with the word "if".

The “if” is the condition for having or partaking of Christ.

Those who depart from Him, no longer have Him.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12




JLB

 

[JLB]

That is not my claim. It is they were never born again in the first place but of that we cannot be sure since it is between them and God.
Now, you claim people can lose their salvation and others say they cannot and both quote scripture to support their position.....so who is correct?

You have never seen me say a person can lose their salvation.

A person who believes and is saved through faith in Jesus Christ, can indeed wander and become lost.

Just like Jesus taught us about the prodigal son.


31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:31-32

• for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

again


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

At what point does a person become born again?

When they believe the Gospel?

When they are baptized?

I believe most of you OSAS folks claim it is when you believe, however, you may have a different point of view that the others.

JLB

I know that the Bible says believe and be baptized and other places just believe. I believe a person is born again from above meaning that it's a work of God. I've been taught different things through the years. I believe it's when the Holy Spirit rejuvenates a person. Such would follow true belief and not necessary baptism. One should be baptized in obedience. I was immediately baptized upon confession of faith. When precisely was I born again? God knows and I'm good with that.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I see, so you believe a person no longer has a freewill after they believe and are born again?


Jesus said those who are in Him, can indeed be removed from Him, by His Father.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


Do you believe like FreeGrace, that a person who is removed from Christ still has eternal life, even though they have been disconnected from Him?


JLB

Freewill is an interesting discussion and how it works exactly up against God's sovereignty I don't know. Books have been written on both sides of the issue of freewill. We don't have the "freewill" to come to Christ of our own unless the Spirit calls us. So there's that.

I have not been convinced that a person who is truly sealed by the Holy Spirit can be removed since they were bought with a price and are no longer their own.

I don't see how it's possible to be truly born again, sealed by the spirit, and changed from within by God, His workmanship, that such a person won't bear fruit.

And what is this fruit anyway? It's rarely defined. Works are cited but never named. I wish that when we spoke of fruit and works that we'd also name exactly what those are. Every time.

Loving one's wife is a fruit. Anything that is motivated by the Spirit of God is a fruit. Sharing is a fruit. IF it is birthed in the Holy Spirit.

If you love me you'll keep my commandments.....obeying Christ is a fruit. What did he say do? Serve others in love.

If someone claims to love Christ but they don't do the things He taught, they are either liars and deceived. You can't be a follower of Christ if you're simply not following Him. Claiming to be a Christian doesn't make one such.

 

[dirtfarmer]

What you have stated is called a logical fallacy.

You misrepresented what I stated so as to make your representation seem true.

Straw man

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
Example: After Will said that we should put more money into health and education, Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country so much that he wants to leave it defenceless by cutting military spending.


If you think that someone can never depart from the faith, then please explain why Paul would state this in scripture.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1




JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

1 Timothy 4:1 is not about a believer in Christ turning from Christ and losing their faith. If you will notice Paul said "latter times" not later times, as in later in life. Latter times refers to the closeness of the coming of Christ, not depart from the faith that was presented in scripture later in their walk. The departure of faith is the cults that are being presently presented as an alternative to faith in Christ. Examples of these cults like the moonies, Hare Krishna, Scientology, or transcendental mediation is seducing spirits and doctrine of devils. The deviation of religion from the central theme of a crucified Christ, cleansing blood, and death to self and life in Christ, to the alternative cults that are being espoused today.

If it is "later" in a life lived, then how could "forbidding to marry" be a doctrine that is adhered to by those that are already married.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Though it's not part of the poll answers, I figure I'll give my answer too.

I don't know.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

If you think that someone can never depart from the faith, then please explain why Paul would state this in scripture.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1




JLB

Good point.
Paul said because I believe he knew fake believers and those believers who were continuing to live a sinful lifestyle after ACCEPTING Christ as Savior could lose their salvation. The following verses in Hebrews 6: 6-8 are clear that it would be impossible for such believers to be saved
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

I have repeatedly mentioned in my numerous posts that obedience is as important in salvation doctrine as believing. Faith without obedience is dead and will be burned , the book of Hebrews says in above verses.
I also exhort this churches and pastors who are teaching the false doctrine of easy believism ( you believe you're saved) stop it ASAP and teach correct salvation doctrine. I'm not willing to accept this heresy ( in my opinion) being taught rampantly. I will strongly oppose it, as to me it's very plainly unbiblical. Christ emphasized a lot on obedience, which was however unceremoniously removed in the easy believism doctrine. All that's left is "you believe you're saved. I guarantee that"
I bet this doctrine really pleases the devil who must love millions of unproductive ineffective believers who are not scared of living a sinful lifestyle because they're content in their "guaranteed salvation"
Obedience won't give em anything extra. "Why must I be obedient" they ask. "I'm already saved!" Works don't save , faith does, is their weak argument , thereby they justify all sin and sloth. Guys do you see the serious danger in this heretical doctrine ?

 

[chessman]

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ...?

We have 5 No’s so far,

Excellent Theological observation folks. Five sets of thumbs up for you guys. Glad you’re onboard with the Savior being the Savior.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The “if” is the condition for having or partaking of Christ.

Those who depart from Him, no longer have Him.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12




JLB

The "if" doesn't apply to those that depart from him.
Verses 12 and 13 doesn't say "partakers of Christ" because they never were.
Anyone can believe anything for a time and change their "mind".
Nothing spoken here about changing their "heart".

 

[GodsGrace]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The question that you have asked is an oxymoron. An oxymoron is a combination of contradictory words like "cruel kindness". there is no such "animal". Cruel and kindness doesn't go together. It is impossible for a "born again" Christian to become "un-born again", or depart from the faith. Christians are kept by the power of God unto "the day of redemption". There is no one that has that ability.

Another example of an oxymoron is: "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it". God is all powerful, therefore there is nothing that he can't do.

It's not an oxymoron if one believes that a born again believer CAN reject Christ at some point and thus become an unbeliever.

I happen to be one of those, as you know.
If it were not possible, Paul and the other writers, would not have made such a point of showing us how to live a life worthy of God's love.

Ephesians 5:1-10 and even beyond this, Paul is exhorting us to live a life free of immorality, or greed, coarse jesting, or impurity, or idolater has an inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

I often hear those who believe in eternal security assure me that they do not mean that just because they believe this, they know they must also believe in living a good life. However, if you speak to them long enough, they'll admit that even if they return to a life of sin, they will STILL be saved. This goes against everything the bible teaches.

OSAS is akin to a license to sin since it requires nothing of us.
Also, I'd like to say that this idea of eternal security did not exist with the Apostles,
the Apologetic Fathers or the Early church Fathers.

It's a recent idea which is heretical in nature.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

If you think that someone can never depart from the faith, then please explain why Paul would state this in scripture.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1




JLB

It's not an oxymoron if one believes that a born again believer CAN reject Christ at some point and thus become an unbeliever.

I happen to be one of those, as you know.
If it were not possible, Paul and the other writers, would not have made such a point of showing us how to live a life worthy of God's love.

Ephesians 5:1-10 and even beyond this, Paul is exhorting us to live a life free of immorality, or greed, coarse jesting, or impurity, or idolater has an inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

I often hear those who believe in eternal security assure me that they do not mean that just because they believe this, they know they must also believe in living a good life. However, if you speak to them long enough, they'll admit that even if they return to a life of sin, they will STILL be saved. This goes against everything the bible teaches.

OSAS is akin to a license to sin since it requires nothing of us.
Also, I'd like to say that this idea of eternal security did not exist with the Apostles,
the Apologetic Fathers or the Early church Fathers.

It's a recent idea which is heretical in nature.

Amen! Very well explained

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm OSAS, and it dates to the Old Testament.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for you OSAS folks, it’s just another opinion.

Those who believe for a while then reject Christ for another jesus or another gospel, or another lord, have the wrath of God to look forward to.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36 NIV
JLB

What an unfortunate misunderstanding of Scripture and God's promises!

Regardless of how any believer's life turns out, there are promises from God.
Rom 8:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Even whatever happens IN THE FUTURE doesn't effect the believer's security (love) in Christ.

There is no "double jeopardy" in God's plan for His children, in spite of what OSNAS wants to believe.
Rom 4:
7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

These verses are clear; since Christ died for all sin, no sin "will ever be counted against them". In spite of what some claim to the contrary.

Rom 5:20 - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Rom 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

OSNAS fails to understand what "once for all" means.

Regarding "once for all", consider all these verses:
Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:2, 10, 1 Pet 3:18

When Christ died for sins, He died for ALL the sins of ALL of humanity.

So, where "sin increased, grace increased ALL THE MORE". But OSNAS doesn't understand that either.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have already admitted that the answer is yes, the born again person is still saved even though they reject Jesus Christ for another lord.

Because that's the promise of God for all of His children.

Plainly enough Jesus says otherwise, but you seem to want to be the loner, so your welcome to your opinion.

Plainly enough, my "opinion" is EXACTLY what Jesus has said.

We have 5 No’s so far, when are you going to cast your vote yes?

When ever did democracy determine doctrine? Never. How silly. I will ALWAYS believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life: THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28.

You're welcome to your own opinion.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What an unfortunate misunderstanding of Scripture and God's promises!

Regardless of how any believer's life turns out, there are promises from God.
Rom 8:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Even whatever happens IN THE FUTURE doesn't effect the believer's security (love) in Christ.

There is no "double jeopardy" in God's plan for His children, in spite of what OSNAS wants to believe.
Rom 4:
7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

These verses are clear; since Christ died for all sin, no sin "will ever be counted against them". In spite of what some claim to the contrary.

Rom 5:20 - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Rom 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

OSNAS fails to understand what "once for all" means.

Regarding "once for all", consider all these verses:
Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:2, 10, 1 Pet 3:18

When Christ died for sins, He died for ALL the sins of ALL of humanity.

So, where "sin increased, grace increased ALL THE MORE". But OSNAS doesn't understand that either.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have never seen me say a person can lose their salvation.

A person who believes and is saved through faith in Jesus Christ, can indeed wander and become lost.

Please explain the difference between "lose their salvation" and "become lost", if there is a difference.

So far, all I'm seeing is double talk from your posts.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

What an unfortunate misunderstanding of Scripture and God's promises!

Regardless of how any believer's life turns out, there are promises from God.
Rom 8:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Even whatever happens IN THE FUTURE doesn't effect the believer's security (love) in Christ.

There is no "double jeopardy" in God's plan for His children, in spite of what OSNAS wants to believe.
Rom 4:
7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

These verses are clear; since Christ died for all sin, no sin "will ever be counted against them". In spite of what some claim to the contrary.

Rom 5:20 - The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Rom 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

OSNAS fails to understand what "once for all" means.

Regarding "once for all", consider all these verses:
Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:2, 10, 1 Pet 3:18

When Christ died for sins, He died for ALL the sins of ALL of humanity.

So, where "sin increased, grace increased ALL THE MORE". But OSNAS doesn't understand that either.

If the apostles believed obedience wasn't needed for salvation, why did they choose to lay down their lives ( in painful n horrendous ways) for the gospel? They could've easily hidden or fled . Why were they obedient to the point of death? Are rules of salvation different for different people?