Forum Poll

[FreeGrace]

It's not an oxymoron if one believes that a born again believer CAN reject Christ at some point and thus become an unbeliever.

Only if it can be shown that the Bible considers a believer who only believes for a while (Luke 8:13) becomes an "unbeliever" that you'd have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Such a view is like going from being born again to being unborn. That is worse than silly. And has no justification for such a view.

I happen to be one of those, as you know.

Huh? You've become an unbeliever??? Please clarify.

OSAS is akin to a license to sin since it requires nothing of us.

The verses on God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) and warning of loss of reward refutes your opinion.

Further, regarding this supposed "license to sin", just read Rom 7 about what Paul struggled with (sin).

Humans don't need a license to sin. We all have a sin nature. Duh.

Also, I'd like to say that this idea of eternal security did not exist with the Apostles

Oh, just stop it. Paul wrote about it clearly. Rom 8:35-39. 1 Thess 5:4-11.

It's a recent idea which is heretical in nature.

This is akin to calling Jesus a heretic, because He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, which is eternal security. Prior to that, He said those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

So His statement about recipients never perishing is a promise from the moment one believes.

 

[FreeGrace]

If the apostles believed obedience wasn't needed for salvation, why did they choose to lay down their lives ( in painful n horrendous ways) for the gospel?

Is this serious?? Really? They SAW His Deity. They KNEW everything He said was true. They were willing to DIE for the truth. That's why they did.

Is this really an argument that they were obedient FOR salvation? Why not just join the Catholic church then and be in agreement with their doctrine of faith plus works for salvation, in which there is NO grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm OSAS, and it dates to the Old Testament.

How does it date to the Old Testament if it's not even in the New Testament?
Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that no matter what we do, we are always and still saved.
1 Corinthians 15:2
Paul says we are saved by the gospel which he preached, IF we hold fast the word and believed in vain.

Why would he caution us to HOLD FAST the word, if it's impossible to become unsaved for abandoning Christ?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Is this serious?? Really? They SAW His Deity. They KNEW everything He said was true. They were willing to DIE for the truth. That's why they did.

Is this really an argumenty that they were obedient FOR salvation? Why not just join the Catholic church then and be in agreement with their doctrine of faith plus works for salvation, in which there is NO grace.

Sir how many "believers" are willing to die for Jesus today out of two billion "saved" Christians? If Catholics believe faith and obedience both needed, I believe they got that part correct

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Is this serious?? Really? They SAW His Deity. They KNEW everything He said was true. They were willing to DIE for the truth. That's why they did.

Is this really an argument that they were obedient FOR salvation? Why not just join the Catholic church then and be in agreement with their doctrine of faith plus works for salvation, in which there is NO grace.

You say the apostles were willing to die for truth . What truth did they see which we cannot huh ? Everyone wants to just believe...

 

[civilwarbuff]

If the apostles believed obedience wasn't needed for salvation, why did they choose to lay down their lives ( in painful n horrendous ways) for the gospel? They could've easily hidden or fled . Why were they obedient to the point of death? Are rules of salvation different for different people?

Were they?....obedient to the point of death?.....What were they doing before Pentecost? Running, hiding, trying to get out of Jerusalem because they thought they were going to be killed. Dosen't sound very obedient unto death to me. Only after Pentecost did the full understanding of who and what Jesus really was come to them and that through the Holy Spirit; the same Holy Spirit that only believers possess and that will sustain us in Him through anything.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Were they?....obedient to the point of death?.....What were they doing before Pentecost? Running, hiding, trying to get out of Jerusalem because they thought they were going to be killed. Dosen't sound very obedient unto death to me. Only after Pentecost did the full understanding of who and what Jesus really was come to them and that through the Holy Spirit; the same Holy Spirit that only believers possess and that will sustain us in Him through anything.

What understanding came upon them , that they all changed and laid down their lives instead of hiding ?

 

[civilwarbuff]

What understanding came upon them , that they all changed and laid down their lives instead of hiding ?

Seriously?......you have to ask that?
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (my bolding)

 

[JLB]

The "if" doesn't apply to those that depart from him.
Verses 12 and 13 doesn't say "partakers of Christ" because they never were.
Anyone can believe anything for a time and change their "mind".
Nothing spoken here about changing their "heart".

How does someone “depart from” the living God, but somehow was never reconciled to Him, or a part of Him.

This warning is about deserting Christ and becoming faithless, no longer having the confidence or substance of the the salvation we once hoped for.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

The substance of our faith, is what we have until we receive the end result of our faith, which in this case is salvation through faith in Christ.

Faith is the substance or confidence of the thing we are hoping for, the evidence of the thing not yet seen, or realized or obtained yet.


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1


The author of Hebrews says if we are to be partakers of Christ, we must continue in faith, continue to have the substance of our faith we had when we first believed, so that we do not depart from the Living God.


Paul says the same thing in Colossians, that if we are to remained reconciled to Him we must continue in the faith.


And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith,
• and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Only if it can be shown that the Bible considers a believer who only believes for a while (Luke 8:13) becomes an "unbeliever" that you'd have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Such a view is like going from being born again to being unborn. That is worse than silly. And has no justification for such a view.

Huh? You've become an unbeliever??? Please clarify.

The verses on God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) and warning of loss of reward refutes your opinion.

Further, regarding this supposed "license to sin", just read Rom 7 about what Paul struggled with (sin).

Humans don't need a license to sin. We all have a sin nature. Duh.

Oh, just stop it. Paul wrote about it clearly. Rom 8:35-39. 1 Thess 5:4-11.

This is akin to calling Jesus a heretic, because He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, which is eternal security. Prior to that, He said those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

So His statement about recipients never perishing is a promise from the moment one believes.

We will NEVER PERISH IF WE BELIEVE.
If we STOP believing we will perish.
It all depends on our belief.

Here is what some of the early church fathers believed.
They were the closest to the Apostles, and some knew an apostle or someone that was taught by an apostle. They knew much more about what Jesus and Paul taught than you and I ever will:

Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)

Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)

Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130
We take earnest heed in these last days, for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing unless now, in this wicked time, we also withstand coming sources of danger, as befits the sons of God. (Letter of Barnabas 4)

Each person will receive as he has done. If he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him. If he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease as those who are the called ones, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince should acquire power over us and thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. Consider this all the more, brothers, when you reflect and see that after such great signs and wonders were done in Israel, they were abandoned. Let us beware, lest we be found as it is written, "Many are called, but few are chosen" [Matt. 22:14]. (Letter of Barnabas 4)

Pseudo-Clement, A.D. 100 - 150
Let us, then, not only call him Lord, for that will not save us. For he says, "Not every one that says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall be saved, but he that does righteousness." Therefore, brothers, let us confess him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy; but being continent, compassionate, and good. … By such works let us confess him, and not by those that are of an opposite kind. It is not fitting that we should fear men, but rather God. For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord has said, "Even if you were gathered together to me, into my very bosom, yet if you were not to keep my commandments, I would cast you off and say to you, 'Depart from me. I do not know where you are from, you workers of iniquity.'" (2 Clement 4)

Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that none of us may perish needlessly. For if we have commands and [if we] engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, then how much more should we not perish because we already know God.

Let us therefore help one another and lift up the weak in what is good so that all of us may be saved, convert, and admonish one another.

Let us not only seem to believe and pay attention when we are admonished by the elders, but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home. Let us not be allured away by worldly lusts, but let us draw near to one another very often in order to try to make progress in the Lord's commands. In this way, when we all have the same mind, we will be gathered together for life, for the Lord said, "I come to gather all nations and languages."

This refers to the day of his appearing, when he will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. The unbelievers will see his glory and might, and when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised. They will say, "Woe to us, because you were, and we did not know you, did not believe, and did not obey the elders who clearly explain our salvation."

"Their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh" (Is. 66:24).

He speaks of the great day of judgment, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ.

The righteous will have succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul. They will give glory to God when they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire. They will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart." (Second Clement 17)

1 of 2

 

[JLB]

I know that the Bible says believe and be baptized and other places just believe. I believe a person is born again from above meaning that it's a work of God. I've been taught different things through the years. I believe it's when the Holy Spirit rejuvenates a person. Such would follow true belief and not necessary baptism. One should be baptized in obedience. I was immediately baptized upon confession of faith. When precisely was I born again? God knows and I'm good with that.

Ok. So you don’t know when we are born again, whether when we believe or later on.


Fair enough.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

What understanding came upon them , that they all changed and laid down their lives instead of hiding ?

The difference between the apostles and easy believism Christians of today is that the apostles RESPONDED to Christ's call for obedience. They had seen with their own eyes Jesus always did God's will over His own. They knew Christ wanted obedience from His followers . Plus they had no means to read Paul's account ( or needed to read) . And it's some of Paul's ( misinterpreted verses) which has led to this mess of easy believism. To the apostles only Christ's words mattered and indeed they recognized Christ's express call for obedience and they responded.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2

I know it's difficult for you to accept this FG, and you probably won't even read it.
I can understand---it's rather unsettling. But this is what the church has always believed.


Justin, c. A.D. 155
If they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God, and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" [Ps. 32:2]. That is, he repents of his sins so that he may receive remission of them from God. It is not as you deceive yourselves, along with others who resemble you in this, and say that even though they are sinners, but know God, the Lord will not imput sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened because of his boasting, which was forgiven when he mourned and wept in the way it is written. If even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance and only when this great king, anointed one, and prophet mourned and conducted himself as it is written, then how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they do not weep, do not mourn, and do not repent, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute sin to them? (Dialogue with Trypho 141)

Hermas, c. A.D. 160
"He that does not know God," [the angel of repentance] answered, "and practices evil, receives a certain chastisement for his wickedness, but he that has known God ought not to do evil anymore but to do good. If, accordingly, when he ought to do good, he does evil, does he not appear to do greater evil than the one who does not know God? For this reason, those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death, but those who have known God and have seen his mighty works and still continue in evil shall be chastised doubly and shall die forever. This is the way the Church of God will be purified." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:8)

Irenaeus, A.D. 183 - 186
We … ought ourselves to fear, lest by chance, after the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from his kingdom. (Against Heresies, IV:27:2)

[Irenaeus quotes 1 Cor. 6:9-10 here about inheriting the kingdom of God.] It was not to those who are outside that he said these things, but to us, lest we should be cast out of the kingdom of God by doing any such thing. He proceeds to say, "And truly such were you, but you are washed, but you are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" [1 Cor. 6:11]. And just as [under the old covenant], those who led vicious lives and led other people astray were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in the same way. (Against Heresies, IV:27:4)

Basil, c. A.D. 362
Vain then is the labor of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner if a change come to pass, and the former turn from the better to the worse and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel ... when he says, "If the righteous man turns away and commits iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he did before. In his sin he shall die." And so, too, about the sinner: if he turns away from his wickedness and does what is right, he shall live. (Epistle 42 as numbered by The Ante-Nicene Fathers, published by Eerdmans and Hendrickson.)

Vain then is the labour of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner, if a change befall, and the former turn from the better to the worse, and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel teaching as it were in the name of the Lord, when he says, “if the righteous turneth away and committeth iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he committed before; in his sin he shall die,”2063 and so too about the sinner; if he turn away from his wickedness, and do that which is right, he shall live. (Letter from St. Basil of Caesarea to Chilo, his disciple. Basil 42:2)

 

[JLB]

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ...?



Excellent Theological observation folks. Five sets of thumbs up for you guys. Glad you’re onboard with the Savior being the Savior.

Actually we have 7 now, with 1 yes, which is FreeGrace.


FreeGrace believes that a born again believer can indeed reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist and believe he is lord and savior, and still be saved.


It seems there are a variety of different things the OSAS community believes about this matter.



JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

Actually we have 7 now, with 1 yes, which is FreeGrace.


FreeGrace believes that a born again believer can indeed reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist and believe he is lord and savior, and still be saved.


It seems there are a variety of different things the OSAS community believes about this matter.



JLB

Sounds as if this thread was simply to try to trap people into disagreement and not serve any spiritual purpose.....too bad.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How does someone “depart from” the living God, but somehow was never reconciled to Him, or a part of Him.

This warning is about deserting Christ and becoming faithless, no longer having the confidence or substance of the the salvation we once hoped for.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

The substance of our faith, is what we have until we receive the end result of our faith, which in this case is salvation through faith in Christ.

Faith is the substance or confidence of the thing we are hoping for, the evidence of the thing not yet seen, or realized or obtained yet.


Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1


The author of Hebrews says if we are to be partakers of Christ, we must continue in faith, continue to have the substance of our faith we had when we first believed, so that we do not depart from the Living God.


Paul says the same thing in Colossians, that if we are to remained reconciled to Him we must continue in the faith.


And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith,
• and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul.



JLB

You're talking good works.
It's the Holy Spirit that keeps up with the Lord.
We are all too weak to save ourselves.
If you haven't the Holy Spirit, then it's easy to walk away.
You were never saved.
AKA Judas Escariot
Pontius Pilate called Jesus King of the Jews.
Where did that get him?
The Holy Spirit is the big separater.
If you have him, you will never stray away too far.
It's the ones that don't have him that stray forever.
Of course, then there are those who think they know the answers and try to cast doubts in everyone's minds.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Actually we have 7 now, with 1 yes, which is FreeGrace.


FreeGrace believes that a born again believer can indeed reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist and believe he is lord and savior, and still be saved.


It seems there are a variety of different things the OSAS community believes about this matter.



JLB

Yes, I've been saying that all along.
People have different understandings, but only God knows the heart.

 

[JLB]

You're talking good works.

Please point out where I have mentioned good works?


How is having faith in Christ, doing good works?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Actually we have 7 now, with 1 yes, which is FreeGrace.


FreeGrace believes that a born again believer can indeed reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist and believe he is lord and savior, and still be saved.


It seems there are a variety of different things the OSAS community believes about this matter.



JLB

Your poll is a trap the way it is worded.
I had to give a lot of thought before I answered.
In all fairness, you should have worded it in a simpler manner.
Not everyone has your brains JLB.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Please point out where I have mentioned good works?


How is having faith in Christ, doing good works?

You are over emphasizing "continue" to the point where people think they have to work for their salvation.
Why should you think that everyone understands as you do when you purposely emphasize a word that could cause someone to think "works"?