Forum Poll

[chessman]

Tell me Chessman who did Paul mean when he said "For if YOU ----the SOUL--- live according to the flesh(BODY), you ( the Soul) will die but if by the Spirit you ( soul) put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul didn’t say that so your question doesn’t make any sense.

But he did tells brothers we a debtors. So Who, in your stidy from this Bible passage are we indebted to?

Isn't Paul making clear distinction between he himself and the BODY ( flesh ) which is utterly sinful.

Yes, that’s my point. If you’d go back and answer my original questions you’d see that’s my point. Your assumption (even in the re-phrasing of Paul’s statement above) is that Paul means that the soul will die (be condemned with eternal death, to use your previous words) when the distinction he’s making is clearly that the flesh, the body, (yes even Paul’s) will die due to sin even as the Christian brother lives.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit to which the soul owes its life will also reinfuse life into the dead Christian’s body, just as the body of Christ?

And yet brother Chessman you say Paul meant BODY ---+the sinful one --- will live if we put to death the deeds of the body!

Correct. The resurrectionbody (glorified body) of all brothers in Christ will live (after our flesh dies).

And if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead is dwelling in you, the One having raised Christ from the dead will also give-life-to your mortal bodies through His Spirit dwelling in you.​

Romans 8:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 8:11&version=DLNT

What is the requirement for receiving life to your mortal body in Paul’s opinion within this Bible passage?

This is the abc of Christian faith --+++ the tussle between our soul and the body.

Our Holy Spirit indwelt spirit tussles with our weak fleshly desires. Christianity 101! That is, until the old flesh dies and we get new glorified flesh.

Keep watching, and be praying that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit is willing , but the flesh is weak”.​

Matthew 26:41 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 26:41&version=DLNT

The Spirit is the One giving-life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.​

John 6:63 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:63&version=DLNT

About yr other question WHEN the battle against sinful flesh is won, unfortunately it's NOT in this life

So the flesh, the body, of a Christian must die first in order to win the battle, in your opinion?

[edited]

And that will happen only after we are Judged first

After the death of the Christian’s flesh, right?

You never answered (help me learn Bible):

Do you believe the body of a brother in Christ endures forever, whether he sins a little or a lot?

Revelation 2: 23 "Then all the churches will know that I ( JESUS) am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your DEEDS

Help me do some suggested Bible study here: Does Jesus, in Rev 2:23, search the hearts and minds of the churches or does He search deeds done in the flesh?

 

[Maria E Abreu]

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬
http://bible.com/100/1jn.1.6-7.nasb

The saved do not habitually walk in darkness

This verse does not say "habitually" walking in darkness. It says if we say we have fellowship with Him, and yet walk in darkness.

The next verse says if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us.


6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:6-10 NKJV


We all know that Christian's start out their new life in Christ, continuing to commit sins, until the Lord patiently deals with us over time to learn to walk in the victory of the new life He paid for us to walk in, just as any parent teaches their children how to behave, and obey them.


To tell a sister or brother who is still struggling to live the Christian life of victory over is sin and the devil, they must not have ever been saved, is flat out wrong and is not biblical.


Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Galatians 6:1 NKJV




ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

hello Maria E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

John was an apostle to the circumcision, not to the uncircumcision, Gentiles.

Revelation 1:6, " And hath made us kings and priests unto our God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." This refers to Exodus 19:6 and was spoken to the nation of Israel, not to the body of Christ, His Church.

Where do you find that Paul ever said we are priest, priests, priesthood, or priestly from Romans to Philemon. In Paul's letters to the Gentiles, believers are not to be priest, but heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, to rule and reign with Him.

Again, brother, I gave you the scripture from revelation, that says it was to the seven Churches in Asia.


4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings[b] and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:4-6 NKJV


If you want to believe that the book of Revelation was written to just Jews, then that is your choice.

I'm not going to argue with you about who the Apostle John wrote letters to.

If Jesus caught John up in the heavens, and showed him things to come and told him to write to the seven churches of Asia, I imagine that is who John wrote to.


I may be wrong though. Please forgive me if I am.


I noticed you didn't answer the forum poll.


Can you answer a question for me?


Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?




ME

 

[Papa Zoom]

What about "saved" Christians who are living in sin-- cheating, adultery, stealing and stuff like that-----

My reply was to the above. Saved Christians don't "live" in sin. The implication here is continuing to cheat, steal, sleep around, etc. To that I posted this:
“If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬
http://bible.com/100/1jn.1.6-7.nasb

This verse does not say "habitually" walking in darkness. It says if we say we have fellowship with Him, and yet walk in darkness.

It implies habitually which is what "walking" in darkness is. And IF one does such a thing and at the same time claims to have fellowship with Jesus, they are LIARS. We are to walk (continuously striving to walk this way - bumps in the road are one thing but living in continuous sin another) in the light as HE is in the light.

To tell a sister or brother who is still struggling to live the Christian life of victory over is sin and the devil, they must not have ever been saved, is flat out wrong and is not biblical.

Nowhere is this idea remotely suggested by me or anyone else.

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Galatians 6:1 NKJV

This is a far cry from "living in" sin: ie a sinful lifestyle. If a new Christian was doing that, willfully, that would be evidence they weren't sincere in their faith claim. No, such are not true believers. The Holy Spirit does his work and you will see some evidence of such in a person's life.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Again, brother, I gave you the scripture from revelation, that says it was to the seven Churches in Asia.


4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings[b] and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:4-6 NKJV


If you want to believe that the book of Revelation was written to just Jews, then that is your choice.

I'm not going to argue with you about who the Apostle John wrote letters to.

If Jesus caught John up in the heavens, and showed him things to come and told him to write to the seven churches of Asia, I imagine that is who John wrote to.


I may be wrong though. Please forgive me if I am.


I noticed you didn't answer the forum poll.


Can you answer a question for me?


Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?




ME

hello Marie E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

Where is any of the scriptures that the apostle to the Gentiles instructs the believer"to overcome"? We are told the just shall live by faith in the shed blood of Christ. It is by faith in his sacrifice on the Cross that we are victorious and are already seated in the heavenly. Ephesus
Where are we, the believer, ever told that we are subject to the second death? Scripture states the believer has no fear of the second death. Smyrna
What does the believer need the hidden manna for? seeing that we feast on the word of God. Pergamum.
Where is the believer ever told that we have to over come until the end? Believers are kept by the power of God. Thyatira
Where is the believer ever told that his name can be blotted out of the book of life? We, the believer, are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Sardis
Where is the believer ever told that they will face to hour of temptation(tribulation)? Philadelphia
Where is the believer ever told that they have to overcome to sit with Christ in his throne? Laodicea

I didn't answer the question because it is an oxymoron. It is impossible for a born again person to deny Christ.

 

[chessman]

If you believe Him, then you must believe it is those Christians who believe continually to the end during tribulation or life threatening persecution, without rejecting Jesus Christ, that are saved, as is the context of Matthew 24:13

Sure, that’s what I believe. How do you think Christ knows that will happen?

Sure it does,

I asked for Scripture that said “...some (or for that matter all) born again Christians will not endure to the end and be saved, you’d have a point.”
Please highlight where Matt 24:9-16 says anything about born again Christians NOT enduring. It says they will endure and be saved. And again, how do you think christ knows they will endure and be saved?

Yes born again Christians have Christ living in us.

For what purpose?

I just don't see your point?

This is in response to my question; “So does “anyone” in what you call a warning/admonition in Rev 14:9 include a warning to Christ living in us?”

It was a simple yes or no question. Is the angel ‘warning’ Jesus living in us, since He’s an “anyone”?

Why would you connect "win the battle" with some Christians being deceived?

Because I asked you to reference a passage that say the elect will be deceived and NOT be saved. Instead you referenced one that says they will endure and be saved.

The antichrist will ultimately, be destroyed and lose,

Correct.

 

[gr8grace3]

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

To live by faith means that we have ceased from working for salvation and it is Christ that works through us.
1 John 3:19-21, And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then we have confidence toward God.
Colossians 2:20-23, " Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world , are ye subject to ordinances. ( Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of man? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh."

How many churches are filled with doctrine of "don't touch, don't eat, and don't do that's". If we are living by faith there are things that will not be present in our life, not because they are taboo, but because those things are not part of "the more excellent way".

100 % Agree 'richdirt'farmer.

Morality and cleaning up our lives never lead to Spirituality.

But living the Spiritual life will always lead to morality and cleaning up our lives.

And his word says~~~do not quench the Spirit<<<<How many believers even know what this is and how to stop?

And His word says~~~do not grieve the Spirit<<<<how many believers even know what this is and how to stop?

And His word says~~Be filled with the Spirit<<<<<Many believers have not a clue that we can lose the filling(not the indwelling) and how to be filled if we lose that filling?

Growing in His grace and knowledge shows us this. But most are stuck on salvation and the thou shalt and thou shalt not's of the worldly believers.

Most believers are living in the "less excellent way." They think that "don't touch,don't eat and don't do that's" is the spiritual life. But when we live the Spiritual life........the 'sinful life' or 'evil life' is not present.

 

[chessman]

Yes I am saying there is a warning to "anyone" (anyone to who this pertains and is alive on earth during this time) not to take the mark of the beast, which includes the saints, who are alive during this time.

Does it pertain to Christ living in saints during this time?

Why would Christ be defeated, if a Christian chooses to reject Him?

Because Christ is our Lord. And He is the One (and the only One) with power according to the Spirit of holiness to be our Savior. We received grace for the specific purpose of obedience of faith for the sake of His name (not ours). We are called ones of Jesus Christ for theses reasons. If it were possible for the elect to loss (be defeated), He is the One who losses His own possession.

Please show a chapter and verse in the bible that says Christ Himself is defeated is a Christian rejects Him.

There are none. That’s the point.

The faith we have comes from Jesus, it is a gift, and it is up to us, not to depart from that faith,

The faith we have IS His (already posted the passage. And, it’s by His power and His Lordship that we call Him Savior.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?

As has been pointed out by the moderation and several others, the OP question is an assumptive question.

If you were to ask me; “Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?”, I would say no.

Why? Because

He subjected all things under His feet. And He gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of the One filling all things in all.​

Ephesians 1:22-23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:22-23&version=DLNT

Do you think it’s possible for for Christ to loss body parts (members of His body) and still be a full body?

 

[gr8grace3]

Just because a person claims to be a "Christian" doesn't mean that they are.

And what is nuts is that the tares and the goats ACT like christians and counterfeit the 'lifestyle.' They are not 'living in sin' and acting like sin freaks.

So they get everybody focused on 'professing' believers who don't quite live up to their standards so they can sit in the pews, act like Christians, profess their jesus and rely on their lifestyle..........hence getting everybody focused on the "thou shalt and thou shalt not's" of these 'nasty professing believers.'

 

[dirtfarmer]

And what is nuts is that the tares and the goats ACT like christians and counterfeit the 'lifestyle.' They are not 'living in sin' and acting like sin freaks.

So they get everybody focused on 'professing' believers who don't quite live up to their standards so they can sit in the pews, act like Christians, profess their jesus and rely on their lifestyle..........hence getting everybody focused on the "thou shalt and thou shalt not's" of these 'nasty professing believers.'

gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

YES!!!YES!!!AMEN!!!!AMEN!!!!

I like your last sentence. Most don't understand there is a difference between "professing believers" and "possessing believers"

 

[Maria E Abreu]

My reply was to the above. Saved Christians don't "live" in sin. The implication here is continuing to cheat, steal, sleep around, etc.

At what point do you determine, that a Christian, who is less than a year old in Christ, who has confessed Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and is baptized in water, then also gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, yet is in the process of learning to walk in victory over sin, by the power of the Holy Spirit, was never saved, because they still struggle with a certain sin, after a year, 2 years, three years, even 10 years or more, were never saved to begin with, since they still live in a certain sin?


Who determines they were never saved? Their Pastor, their friends, their wife or husband, who is it that makes the determination that the person who still drinks, or smokes or steals after 10 years was never saved to begin with?



ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

hello Marie E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

Where is any of the scriptures that the apostle to the Gentiles instructs the believer"to overcome"? We are told the just shall live by faith in the shed blood of Christ. It is by faith in his sacrifice on the Cross that we are victorious and are already seated in the heavenly. Ephesus
Where are we, the believer, ever told that we are subject to the second death? Scripture states the believer has no fear of the second death. Smyrna
What does the believer need the hidden manna for? seeing that we feast on the word of God. Pergamum.
Where is the believer ever told that we have to over come until the end? Believers are kept by the power of God. Thyatira
Where is the believer ever told that his name can be blotted out of the book of life? We, the believer, are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Sardis
Where is the believer ever told that they will face to hour of temptation(tribulation)? Philadelphia
Where is the believer ever told that they have to overcome to sit with Christ in his throne? Laodicea

I didn't answer the question because it is an oxymoron. It is impossible for a born again person to deny Christ.

I didn't use the word deny.

By the way, the bible emphatically says He will deny us, if we deny Him.

If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, he also will deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12 NKJV


The question from the poll was, Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?


If you hold the position that a born again Christian can never reject Jesus Christ, then you why are you in this thread, saying things , such as "It is impossible for a born again person to deny Christ", when the bible most certainly says, "If we deny Him, he also will deny us."


Furthermore, you started out my insinuating the book of Revelation, written by John, was for the Jews, and not Gentiles, and when I showed you twice the scripture from Revelation that the book of Revelation was to the seven Churches in Asia, now you are asking all these other questions,

Where is any of the scriptures that the apostle to the Gentiles instructs the believer"to overcome"? We are told the just shall live by faith in the shed blood of Christ. It is by faith in his sacrifice on the Cross that we are victorious and are already seated in the heavenly. Ephesus
Where are we, the believer, ever told that we are subject to the second death? Scripture states the believer has no fear of the second death. Smyrna
What does the believer need the hidden manna for? seeing that we feast on the word of God. Pergamum.
Where is the believer ever told that we have to over come until the end? Believers are kept by the power of God. Thyatira
Where is the believer ever told that his name can be blotted out of the book of life? We, the believer, are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Sardis
Where is the believer ever told that they will face to hour of temptation(tribulation)? Philadelphia
Where is the believer ever told that they have to overcome to sit with Christ in his throne? Laodicea


I really don't know why you are asking all these questions, and what point you are trying to make.

This thread is about the question from the poll.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?


If you don't want to answer this question, for whatever reason then that's fine.

If you don't want to participate in the poll and answer the question from the poll, then that's fine.


Please don't keep asking a lot of questions that don't pertain to the topic of this thread, about whether the book of Revelation is for the Church or not.

If you believe the book of Revelation was written to just specifically Jews, then that is your point of view. So be it.


If you want to discuss the topic of this thread, then please answer the poll and let's discuss your point of view from your answer.




ME

 

[Maria E Abreu]

Does it pertain to Christ living in saints during this time?


Because Christ is our Lord. And He is the One (and the only One) with power according to the Spirit of holiness to be our Savior. We received grace for the specific purpose of obedience of faith for the sake of His name (not ours). We are called ones of Jesus Christ for theses reasons. If it were possible for the elect to loss (be defeated), He is the One who losses His own possession.


There are none. That’s the point.


The faith we have IS His (already posted the passage. And, it’s by His power and His Lordship that we call Him Savior.


As has been pointed out by the moderation and several others, the OP question is an assumptive question.

If you were to ask me; “Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?”, I would say no.

Why? Because

He subjected all things under His feet. And He gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of the One filling all things in all.​

Ephesians 1:22-23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:22-23&version=DLNT

Do you think it’s possible for for Christ to loss body parts (members of His body) and still be a full body?

Sure, that’s what I believe. How do you think Christ knows that will happen?



I asked for Scripture that said “...some (or for that matter all) born again Christians will not endure to the end and be saved, you’d have a point.”
Please highlight where Matt 24:9-16 says anything about born again Christians NOT enduring. It says they will endure and be saved. And again, how do you think christ knows they will endure and be saved?



For what purpose?


This is in response to my question; “So does “anyone” in what you call a warning/admonition in Rev 14:9 include a warning to Christ living in us?”

It was a simple yes or no question. Is the angel ‘warning’ Jesus living in us, since He’s an “anyone”?



Because I asked you to reference a passage that say the elect will be deceived and NOT be saved. Instead you referenced one that says they will endure and be saved.



Correct.

Can you answer the question from the poll?


Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?



That is what I am here to discuss.



ME

 

[Papa Zoom]

At what point do you determine, that a Christian, who is less than a year old in Christ, who has confessed Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and is baptized in water, then also gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, yet is in the process of learning to walk in victory over sin, by the power of the Holy Spirit, was never saved, because they still struggle with a certain sin, after a year, 2 years, three years, even 10 years or more, were never saved to begin with, since they still live in a certain sin?


Who determines they were never saved? Their Pastor, their friends, their wife or husband, who is it that makes the determination that the person who still drinks, or smokes or steals after 10 years was never saved to begin with?



ME

You've built a strawman here. No one said anything about a newborn Christian who is struggling. The context is someone living in sinful disobedience while claiming to be a Christian. We see this sort of nonsense in seasoned believers. So stop with the misrepresentations of what I've stated. Not only that, but I've quoted the Bible to support what I've said.

And drinking is fine. So is smoking. But a thief is a thief. A born from above spirit filled believer isn't going to go on sinning in the way you suggest. If they do, they are in for a surprise when they die. Jesus said that if you love Him you'd obey Him. You don't get to make up new ideas.

Yes we will sin. Probably every day. But if I sleep around and cheat on my wife and steal from my boss and have been doing so for 10 years, it's doubtful I really have any faith in Christ at all. And it's doubly doubtful such a person is saved. They are double minded hypocrites.

 

[dirtfarmer]

You've built a strawman here. No one said anything about a newborn Christian who is struggling. The context is someone living in sinful disobedience while claiming to be a Christian. We see this sort of nonsense in seasoned believers. So stop with the misrepresentations of what I've stated. Not only that, but I've quoted the Bible to support what I've said.

And drinking is fine. So is smoking. But a thief is a thief. A born from above spirit filled believer isn't going to go on sinning in the way you suggest. If they do, they are in for a surprise when they die. Jesus said that if you love Him you'd obey Him. You don't get to make up new ideas.

Yes we will sin. Probably every day. But if I sleep around and cheat on my wife and steal from my boss and have been doing so for 10 years, it's doubtful I really have any faith in Christ at all. And it's doubly doubtful such a person is saved. They are double minded hypocrites.

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

The truth has been spoken is a clear way. thanks .
dirtfarmer

 

[dirtfarmer]

I didn't use the word deny.

By the way, the bible emphatically says He will deny us, if we deny Him.

If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, he also will deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12 NKJV


The question from the poll was, Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?


If you hold the position that a born again Christian can never reject Jesus Christ, then you why are you in this thread, saying things , such as "It is impossible for a born again person to deny Christ", when the bible most certainly says, "If we deny Him, he also will deny us."


Furthermore, you started out my insinuating the book of Revelation, written by John, was for the Jews, and not Gentiles, and when I showed you twice the scripture from Revelation that the book of Revelation was to the seven Churches in Asia, now you are asking all these other questions,

Where is any of the scriptures that the apostle to the Gentiles instructs the believer"to overcome"? We are told the just shall live by faith in the shed blood of Christ. It is by faith in his sacrifice on the Cross that we are victorious and are already seated in the heavenly. Ephesus
Where are we, the believer, ever told that we are subject to the second death? Scripture states the believer has no fear of the second death. Smyrna
What does the believer need the hidden manna for? seeing that we feast on the word of God. Pergamum.
Where is the believer ever told that we have to over come until the end? Believers are kept by the power of God. Thyatira
Where is the believer ever told that his name can be blotted out of the book of life? We, the believer, are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Sardis
Where is the believer ever told that they will face to hour of temptation(tribulation)? Philadelphia
Where is the believer ever told that they have to overcome to sit with Christ in his throne? Laodicea


I really don't know why you are asking all these questions, and what point you are trying to make.

This thread is about the question from the poll.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved?


If you don't want to answer this question, for whatever reason then that's fine.

If you don't want to participate in the poll and answer the question from the poll, then that's fine.


Please don't keep asking a lot of questions that don't pertain to the topic of this thread, about whether the book of Revelation is for the Church or not.

If you believe the book of Revelation was written to just specifically Jews, then that is your point of view. So be it.


If you want to discuss the topic of this thread, then please answer the poll and let's discuss your point of view from your answer.




ME

hello Maria E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before; There is no way to answer an oxymoron, of which this question is.

 

[Papa Zoom]

hello Maria E Abreu, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before; There is no way to answer an oxymoron, of which this question is.

It is indeed just that! I fully agree!

 

[Maria E Abreu]

You've built a strawman here. No one said anything about a newborn Christian who is struggling. The context is someone living in sinful disobedience while claiming to be a Christian.

A Strawman?

I'm discussing the idea that if a born again Christian, lives in sinful disobedience, then you say they were never saved.

Which of course includes the example of the young Christian I indicated.

At what point do we say that the Christian was never saved?


If a Christian is living in sinful obedience, then are we supposed to "restore that person"?

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:1-2

We see this sort of nonsense in seasoned believers. So stop with the misrepresentations of what I've stated. Not only that, but I've quoted the Bible to support what I've said.

Why is my example of a young Christian who is still learning how to walk in victory over sin, a misrepresentation?


Here is what you said -

Saved Christians don't "live" in sin. The implication here is continuing to cheat, steal, sleep around, etc.

A Christian is a person who is born again.


The new testament is full of Paul writing to Christians, warning them not to sin, not to live by their flesh.


So yes, a born again Christian can indeed fall into living a sinful disobedient life, and it's up to the brothers and sisters in Christ to restore them, not tell them they were never saved.




ME

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Dear brothers and sisters trust me I have learned immensely from here and even from the brothers with whom I have debated, I have gained a lot of wisdom and insight on the Lord's word from them and the moderators and everyone else who contributes. That being said, I would like to draw attention to Christ's words, his very own words, from John 14 verses 15 & 24.
15“If you love me, keep my commands.
24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."

Dear friends, brothers and sisters, isn't it abundantly clear from Christ's own words here that whoever does not love me ( Christ) will not obey my teaching and if you love me you will keep my Commands.

Christ is making it very evident and clear here and in express terms He is saying that if we wish to love Christ we will keep his commandments and whoever does not love Jesus does not obey his teaching.

My dear friends, I just fail to understand how did this easy believism Doctrine even come into existence when Christ is so expressly clear in these verses and many others ( that I have as I have repeatedly quoted verse from other conversations especially of Christ himself where he is commanding us to obey). However just from these words of Christ from John 14, it is unequivocally lucid that Christ does expect obedience, and that if we love him we will obey him.
He also mentions ( in verse 24)that if we do not love him we will not keep his commands.

And what happens to those people who do not love Christ? Judgment, right?

And therefore how can such people who do not love Christ expect salvation and Heaven if they have no love for Jesus (that they just believe but they fail to obey)?

Can we deny Christ’s words here, is my question

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello Rajesh Sahu, dirtfarmer here

Any one that doesn't believe in the eternal security of the believer, if you would, answer to your self; How many times did the Children of Israel have to apply blood to the door post in order to escape Egypt? Once. So they were saved with the one time application of the blood. So it is with the believer today. There is no second application of blood for salvation. The sacrifices in the wilderness and in the land promised was for restoration of fellowship, not salvation. Once the blood was applied they were always God's chosen people and are still his chosen people.

Their relationship with God was never broken after the application on the door post. It was their fellowship with God that was hindered. All the daily sacrifices were for restoration of fellowship, and once a year there was a commemoration of their salvation from Egypt because the blood of bull, heifer, and goats, could not cleanse their conscious. It takes that sacrifice of Christ to give the believer a conscious that is clear. Because of that clear conscious we don't have to sacrifice daily or even more than once. Christ was the perfect lamb that clears our conscious of the guilt of sin.

That is the reason that I believe "once a believer always a believer" What does John say is the work of God for the believers to do? It is to believe on him whom God has sent. There is no other work that is necessary. Christ in us the hope of glory.