Forum Poll

[gr8grace3]

gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

YES!!!YES!!!AMEN!!!!AMEN!!!!

I like your last sentence. Most don't understand there is a difference between "professing believers" and "possessing believers"

Really dirtfarmer...........We can't discern the wheat from the tares. The goats from the Sheep. Only the Lord knows the heart(which is the intellectual MIND of a person!)

IMO we have debates about," who REAAAAALLLLLYYYYYY believes and what true belief is?" Is because the tares and the goats rule this world, have Christianity by the balls because most believers think how they ACT is being a Christian and the tares and goats KNOW this and know how to duplicate this..

IMHO 'professing believers' are going to be the ones who consistently and tirelessly pound the stump for following the law,obedience, losing salvation/maintaining salvation,morality and close to sinless perfection.

A tare and a goat is not someone who says," I believe so I can sin like hell." A tare and goat says," look how humble and good I am. I obey, but look at that other worthless scum. He can't be saved because I dedicate more and live wayyyyyy better."<<<<<And FOOL believers.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

hello Rajesh Sahu, dirtfarmer here

Any one that doesn't believe in the eternal security of the believer, if you would, answer to your self; How many times did the Children of Israel have to apply blood to the door post in order to escape Egypt? Once. So they were saved with the one time application of the blood. So it is with the believer today. There is no second application of blood for salvation. The sacrifices in the wilderness and in the land promised was for restoration of fellowship, not salvation. Once the blood was applied they were always God's chosen people and are still his chosen people.

Their relationship with God was never broken after the application on the door post. It was their fellowship with God that was hindered. All the daily sacrifices were for restoration of fellowship, and once a year there was a commemoration of their salvation from Egypt because the blood of bull, heifer, and goats, could not cleanse their conscious. It takes that sacrifice of Christ to give the believer a conscious that is clear. Because of that clear conscious we don't have to sacrifice daily or even more than once. Christ was the perfect lamb that clears our conscious of the guilt of sin.

That is the reason that I believe "once a believer always a believer" What does John say is the work of God for the believers to do? It is to believe on him whom God has sent. There is no other work that is necessary. Christ in us the hope of glory.

I think you dodged the question WHY Christ says that "if you don't obey my commands you do not love me".
However, I will quote Christ's words ( from my previous post ). Please read it carefully and please let me know WHY Christ didn't answer these two gentlemen who in two different parables Christ taught asked Jesus a straightforward question
Now if what you guys say is the truth how come the Lord Himself does not counsel that to two persons who ask Him " What must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Why didn't Christ simply counsel them " BELIEVE IN ME". but yet He didn't. Instead, he pointed at obedience. The word BELIEVE is conspicuous by its absence.... Why? Does Jesus have different rules for salvation for different people or is the easy believism doctrine nothing but HERESY as I believe it is. Would appreciate all easy believism doctrine and OSAS proponents to reply to this. Thank you.
Here are the two parables which Jesus Himself taught
Mark 10:17-31 (NIV)

The Rich and the Kingdom of God

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”


Luke 10:25-37 New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Good Samaritan

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Really dirtfarmer...........We can't discern the wheat from the tares. The goats from the Sheep. Only the Lord knows the heart(which is the intellectual MIND of a person!)

IMO we have debates about," who REAAAAALLLLLYYYYYY believes and what true belief is?" Is because the tares and the goats rule this world, have Christianity by the balls because most believers think how they ACT is being a Christian and the tares and goats KNOW this and know how to duplicate this..

IMHO 'professing believers' are going to be the ones who consistently and tirelessly pound the stump for following the law,obedience, losing salvation/maintaining salvation,morality and close to sinless perfection.

A tare and a goat is not someone who says," I believe so I can sin like hell." A tare and goat says," look how humble and good I am. I obey, but look at that other worthless scum. He can't be saved because I dedicate more and live wayyyyyy better."<<<<<And FOOL believers.

You pounded hard on who " tares and goats" are. Now I ask you sir , why did Christ "fail" to advise the rich man and the teacher of law in Good samaritan parable ( read my reply to dirtfarmer--- previous post) when they asked Him the burning question on salvation " what must I do to inherit eternal life"? Jesus pointed at OBEDIENCE and NOT believing. My question to you is WHY? Do you think Jesus made a mistake?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I believe the " you believe and you are saved" doctrine is heretical in nature , and cleverly crafted by someone who did NOT want Christ to have followers who were prepared to pick up their cross daily, deny their flesh, and follow the Lord . Luke 9:23.
That crafty someone wanted bunch of believers who would be DECEIVED that obedience didn't play any role in human salvation. One of the two legs ( believing + obeying) needed for salvation was shrewdly and discreetly CHOPPED off leaving the Christians to stoutly defend the " belief" that they were saved the moment they believed. Instead of ( trying to ) live out an obedient Christian Life many became secure and smug in their ( false) salvation security . They were taught no obedience required or needed for salvation. They took that BAIT hook line and sinker . Coz it had suddenly become easy. Laziness and complacence set in . Nothing needed, nothing required . Why should I do anything. Christ has done everything. That kind of thoughts cropped up. End result was exactly what the enemy wanted . Many became judgmental and ineffective believers who had confirmed reservation in heaven . The whole message of Bible is LOVE and obedience . One act of disobedience by the first man caused havoc for entire mankind. Adam n Eve disobeyed and entire mankind was cursed and SIN entered and riding on it's back death and Satan entered as well. Continued....

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

And Adam and Eve were not under the law. God the father CURSED them for their DISOBEDIENCE. Didn't Christ say I and Father are one?( John 10: 30). We can understand from that how much JESUS disliked disobedience that He cursed Adam and Eve for their single act of disobedience and they were banished from the garden of Eden and entire mankind came under the curse and Satan became the ruler of this fallen world---- through one single act of disobedience. How devastating is the consequence of sin. Romans 6:23.
Obedience is OPPOSITE of sin and it's what God seeks , and NOT mere lip service. Christ always did the FATHER'S WILL over His . That is WHAT He taught us also ( Matthew 7: 21-24). Let's at least try to be obedient. Let's at least try to pick up our cross and follow the good Lord . Will we stumble ? Of course we will! Several times, but the blood of Christ covers us. Where is the fear ? We repent, get up , and pick up the cross again. So is Christian walk a hard walk ?
Absolutely! Don't let anyone deceive you if they say otherwise . When we are battling continually with the WORLD , THE ENEMY , AND our own FLESH ( triple whammy!) how could it be an easy walk ? But Lord's words are of great comfort John 16:33 ►
New International Version
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Christ is our ONLY refuge in this tumultous, cursed, doomed, sin infected world . In Him there is no tumult , no trouble, no condemnation . The world is condemned , but those who truly abide in the Lord are NOT. That is the premier reason why apostle Paul says in Romans 8:1 ►
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

 

[Papa Zoom]

I believe the " you believe and you are saved" doctrine is heretical in nature , and cleverly crafted by someone who did NOT want Christ to have followers who were prepared to pick up their cross daily, deny their flesh, and follow the Lord . Luke 9:23.
That crafty someone wanted bunch of believers who would be DECEIVED that obedience didn't play any role in human salvation. One of the two legs ( believing + obeying) needed for salvation was shrewdly and discreetly CHOPPED off leaving the Christians to stoutly defend the " belief" that they were saved the moment they believed. Instead of ( trying to ) live out an obedient Christian Life many became secure and smug in their ( false) salvation security . They were taught no obedience required or needed for salvation. They took that BAIT hook line and sinker . Coz it had suddenly become easy. Laziness and complacence set in . Nothing needed, nothing required . Why should I do anything. Christ has done everything. That kind of thoughts cropped up. End result was exactly what the enemy wanted . Many became judgmental and ineffective believers who had confirmed reservation in heaven . The whole message of Bible is LOVE and obedience . One act of disobedience by the first man caused havoc for entire mankind. Adam n Eve disobeyed and entire mankind was cursed and SIN entered and riding on it's back death and Satan entered as well. Continued....

It seems to me that obedience follows salvation as salvation is a work of God alone. I can do nothing to gain that free gift. It's unmerited. But, God delights in a broken spirit and a contrite heart. It seems impossible to me that someone would confess Christ and then just go on living as if nothing happened. I can't see how such a person is saved. How we live does matter and the NT is full of admonitions and warnings about such.

We are not perfect except as we are in Christ. But we are saved unto good works. 'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ' Ephesians 2:10
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/EPH.2.10

Since we are God's workmanship it's impossible to imagine a new creation in Christ would not obey. And what is it to obey? It means that we seek the mind of Christ.

'Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
' Philippians 2:3-7
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/PHP.2.3-7

Here are just a few verses on "conduct"

• Colossians 4:5 (NASB)
  Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.
• 2 Timothy 3:10 (NASB)
  Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
• Proverbs 19:16 (NASB)
  He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, But he who is careless of conduct will die.
• Proverbs 20:11 (NASB)
  It is by his deeds that a lad distinguishes himself If his conduct is pure and right.
• Proverbs 21:8 (NASB)
  The way of a guilty man is crooked, But as for the pure, his conduct is upright.
• 1 Timothy 4:12 (NASB)
  Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
• Hebrews 13:7 (NASB)
  Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.\
• Hebrews 13:18 (NASB)
  Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things.

Obedience doesn't play a role in salvation, it follows salvation. It's the main role in our santification as we seek to serve God through our Lord Christ. So in principle (on obedience) we agree.

But salvation is solely a work of God. Otherwise it couldn't be a gift.

 

[gr8grace3]

You pounded hard on who " tares and goats" are. Now I ask you sir , why did Christ "fail" to advise the rich man and the teacher of law in Good samaritan parable ( read my reply to dirtfarmer--- previous post) when they asked Him the burning question on salvation " what must I do to inherit eternal life"? Jesus pointed at OBEDIENCE and NOT believing. My question to you is WHY? Do you think Jesus made a mistake?

Matt 19:21~~New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come(the call to faith in Him), follow Me."

Matt 11-28~~New American Standard Bible
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Luke 18~~ 9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[PeterJens]

hello Rajesh Sahu, dirtfarmer here

Any one that doesn't believe in the eternal security of the believer, if you would, answer to your self; How many times did the Children of Israel have to apply blood to the door post in order to escape Egypt? Once. So they were saved with the one time application of the blood. So it is with the believer today. There is no second application of blood for salvation. The sacrifices in the wilderness and in the land promised was for restoration of fellowship, not salvation. Once the blood was applied they were always God's chosen people and are still his chosen people.

Their relationship with God was never broken after the application on the door post. It was their fellowship with God that was hindered. All the daily sacrifices were for restoration of fellowship, and once a year there was a commemoration of their salvation from Egypt because the blood of bull, heifer, and goats, could not cleanse their conscious. It takes that sacrifice of Christ to give the believer a conscious that is clear. Because of that clear conscious we don't have to sacrifice daily or even more than once. Christ was the perfect lamb that clears our conscious of the guilt of sin.

That is the reason that I believe "once a believer always a believer" What does John say is the work of God for the believers to do? It is to believe on him whom God has sent. There is no other work that is necessary. Christ in us the hope of glory.

There is a problem quoting about the people of Israel and their following of God.
Many were judged, Korah's rebellion, and those who worshipped the golden calf.
Here is how Paul describes it

They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
1 Corinthians 10:2-7

The proof of our faith is to stay faithful to God. Our salvation is dependent on our believing,
our walk and our abiding in the vine.

"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." 2 Tim 2:19
But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. Luke 8:15
He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." Luke 11:28
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Rom 2:8
He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 cor 1:8
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Gal 6:9

The Kingdom of Heaven is eternal, not a flash in the pan, a true transformation of the soul into the
likeness of Christ and His ways. The cross came to forgive us and empower us to have fellowship with Jesus

God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
1 Corinthians 1:9

 

[PeterJens]

It seems to me that obedience follows salvation as salvation is a work of God alone. I can do nothing to gain that free gift. It's unmerited. But, God delights in a broken spirit and a contrite heart. It seems impossible to me that someone would confess Christ and then just go on living as if nothing happened. I can't see how such a person is saved. How we live does matter and the NT is full of admonitions and warnings about such.

We are not perfect except as we are in Christ. But we are saved unto good works. 'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ' Ephesians 2:10
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/EPH.2.10

Since we are God's workmanship it's impossible to imagine a new creation in Christ would not obey. And what is it to obey? It means that we seek the mind of Christ.

'Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
' Philippians 2:3-7
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/PHP.2.3-7

Here are just a few verses on "conduct"

• Colossians 4:5 (NASB)
  Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.
• 2 Timothy 3:10 (NASB)
  Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
• Proverbs 19:16 (NASB)
  He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, But he who is careless of conduct will die.
• Proverbs 20:11 (NASB)
  It is by his deeds that a lad distinguishes himself If his conduct is pure and right.
• Proverbs 21:8 (NASB)
  The way of a guilty man is crooked, But as for the pure, his conduct is upright.
• 1 Timothy 4:12 (NASB)
  Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
• Hebrews 13:7 (NASB)
  Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.\
• Hebrews 13:18 (NASB)
  Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things.

Obedience doesn't play a role in salvation, it follows salvation. It's the main role in our santification as we seek to serve God through our Lord Christ. So in principle (on obedience) we agree.

But salvation is solely a work of God. Otherwise it couldn't be a gift.

The free gift is to call us into the Kingdom.
But the calling can be revoked if the gift is rejected.

The gift is to become part of Gods Kingdom, and in Gods Kingdom our heart is to do Gods will.
If you love me, you will obey what I command. John 14:15
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. John 15:10
If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.....
Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matt 19:17-19
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. Heb 6:11

It is shocking for some to realise we are called to be like Jesus, not just believe we have a free ticket
to heaven. Paul put this aspiration even more thoroughly

I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1 Corinthians 1:10

As far as purity goes, we are called to live a pure holy life.
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

It seems to me that obedience follows salvation as salvation is a work of God alone. I can do nothing to gain that free gift. It's unmerited. But, God delights in a broken spirit and a contrite heart. It seems impossible to me that someone would confess Christ and then just go on living as if nothing happened. I can't see how such a person is saved. How we live does matter and the NT is full of admonitions and warnings about such.

We are not perfect except as we are in Christ. But we are saved unto good works. 'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ' Ephesians 2:10
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/EPH.2.10

Since we are God's workmanship it's impossible to imagine a new creation in Christ would not obey. And what is it to obey? It means that we seek the mind of Christ.

'Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
' Philippians 2:3-7
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/PHP.2.3-7

Here are just a few verses on "conduct"

• Colossians 4:5 (NASB)
  Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.
• 2 Timothy 3:10 (NASB)
  Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
• Proverbs 19:16 (NASB)
  He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul, But he who is careless of conduct will die.
• Proverbs 20:11 (NASB)
  It is by his deeds that a lad distinguishes himself If his conduct is pure and right.
• Proverbs 21:8 (NASB)
  The way of a guilty man is crooked, But as for the pure, his conduct is upright.
• 1 Timothy 4:12 (NASB)
  Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
• Hebrews 13:7 (NASB)
  Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.\
• Hebrews 13:18 (NASB)
  Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things.

Obedience doesn't play a role in salvation, it follows salvation. It's the main role in our santification as we seek to serve God through our Lord Christ. So in principle (on obedience) we agree.

But salvation is solely a work of God. Otherwise it couldn't be a gift.

Amen Papa. Even though I'm not fully convinced that obedience plays no role in salvation, but is a fruit of salvation, brcause I see many saved Christians who walk in the flesh , not in the Spirit. But I do agree ' For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ' Ephesians 2:10
As for me , I wish not to be called a BELIEVER of Christ but rather want to be known as a FOLLOWER of His. I believe there is a DRAMATIC difference in the two.
I also believe Christian faith works in tandem with the dedire to do God's will over our own . Jesus walks with those believers who are willing to follow Him, no matter what the consequence is. A full bodied commitment. Jesus says
Matthew 11:28-30

New International Version
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

I picture here an ancient village cart , a bullock cart, driven by two bullocks. Christ invites us to be one and He , the good Lord , is always willing to be the other . And TOGETHER He says we can do life . The Lord of the Universe and His loving follower pulling the cart of Life, accomplishing all good things ...
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

I close this post with James 2 which catches the importance of faith and works
James 2:14-26
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

​

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

There is a problem quoting about the people of Israel and their following of God.
Many were judged, Korah's rebellion, and those who worshipped the golden calf.
Here is how Paul describes it

They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
1 Corinthians 10:2-7

The proof of our faith is to stay faithful to God. Our salvation is dependent on our believing,
our walk and our abiding in the vine.

"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." 2 Tim 2:19
But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. Luke 8:15
He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." Luke 11:28
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Rom 2:8
He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 cor 1:8
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Gal 6:9

The Kingdom of Heaven is eternal, not a flash in the pan, a true transformation of the soul into the
likeness of Christ and His ways. The cross came to forgive us and empower us to have fellowship with Jesus

God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
1 Corinthians 1:9

Amen amen and Amen!

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Matt 19:21~~New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come(the call to faith in Him), follow Me."

Matt 11-28~~New American Standard Bible
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Luke 18~~ 9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

You provide a plethora of verses , and yet failed to provide an answer why the Lord Jesus did not ask the rich man or the teacher of law , to BELIEVE in Him to be saved . Instead Christ asked them to OBEY. This is a clear message to all believers that Christ expects each believer to OBEY, should we choose to follow Him. Check out also how harshly the Lord rebukes the non compliant Churches in the book of revelation. Obedience is as important as faith for Christ will examine every DEEDof ours on the last day and repay us for all that we did .....
Revelation 22:12 ►

"Look, I am coming soon!
My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.
Lets then my friends not marginalize, trivialize or minimize the importance of obedience in the Christian faith, or shall I say WALK​

 

[Honey]

I'm not championing legalism but highlighting that obedience is vital to salvation as faith and baptism are too. Adam n Eve willfully disobeyed. Nt and OT are still part of God's word. By calling it legslism, obedience is ignored

I would respond but since not everyone posts scripture to support their claims that's just how it goes that some can get away with that and others are accused of preaching. God knows this thread needs preaching. Because the ministry that argues against eternal salvation is literally a damned shame.
A permitted damned shame!

 

[Honey]

For lack of a like button, :amen
At first I thought the actor portraying Emmanuel in the first video was Diogo Morgado at first being the video opened at a distance.
Perfect videos to deliver the right message at the right time. God was leading you sister. Or brother.

I'm going to be late for a bible study but they'll understand. I had to share this here because it is perfect to do so as regards this discussion.

Watch this in order to get the full message. These videos are very short. And deeply inspiring.
Watch this one first:
The Good Shepherd and Other Sheep I Have

And then this one:
Bible Truth Proven - My Sheep Hear my Voice

These videos need to be brought forth in the later pages of this thread.

Edit by Stovebolts

 

[Papa Zoom]

Thank you to all who responded to my post. Good stuff! I wish there was a like button. ;/

 

[Christ_empowered]

i dont think expecting obedience and fruits of the spirit from a believer is being prideful or anything. I definitely don't think expecting the genuinely saved to persevere is trying to do salvation in the flesh or being legalistic or...anything. I also don't think that people who go for hyper-grace are intellectually superior to those of us who don't, which is pretty much what some of these posts imply (some rather strongly, at that).

Run the race in such a way as to win. Fight the good fight. Put on the whole Armor of God.

Personally, I think Scripture tells us to encourage, exhort, and admonish and even rebuke each other...because following Christ requires self-renunciantion, transformation, and growth in Christ. If you disagree, that's fine, but...I think the hostility and smug superiority is definitely -not- needed.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

They believe in Works salvation and that's heresy.
All this is in the Bible. All of this is not preaching. It is a fact of scripture that for years has been tolerated when a handful of opponents argue against it.
Think about that!

Honey you come with lots of aggression. Perhaps YOU will answer to me: Why didn't Christ ask the Rich man ( in the parable) to BELIEVE in Him rather Jesus asked the rich man to OBEY, when the rich man asked Christ what must he do to attain eternal life. And yet again Jesus said the same thing to the teacher of the law when the teacher of the Law asked Him "Rabbi what must I do to inherit eternal life? "
You accuse others of "They believe in Works salvation and that's heresy." Will you now ACCUSE CHRIST of heresy because Christ chose to tell them it's obedience that will lead to salvation huh?
Looking forward to yr reply Honey


Here again are the two accounts brother for yr ready reference
Mark 10:17-31
The Rich Man and Jesus
17 As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good.19 But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.’[a]”

20 “Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”

21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

Luke 10:25-37
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

As many easy believers believe that obedience has no part to play in Christian salvation, so do I strongly believe that EASY BELIEVISM is a heresy Crafted by the devil himself to deceive all believers of that false doctrine into complacency ( rather than compliance) and for them to become ineffective, contemptuous and judgmental and above all SINFUL-- with NO fear that their "salvation" can ever be lost!.

 

[GodsGrace]

i dont think expecting obedience and fruits of the spirit from a believer is being prideful or anything. I definitely don't think expecting the genuinely saved to persevere is trying to do salvation in the flesh or being legalistic or...anything. I also don't think that people who go for hyper-grace are intellectually superior to those of us who don't, which is pretty much what some of these posts imply (some rather strongly, at that).

Run the race in such a way as to win. Fight the good fight. Put on the whole Armor of God.

Personally, I think Scripture tells us to encourage, exhort, and admonish and even rebuke each other...because following Christ requires self-renunciantion, transformation, and growth in Christ. If you disagree, that's fine, but...I think the hostility and smug superiority is definitely -not- needed.

It's prideful NOT to expect obedience from a believer.
Colossians 3:23-25
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, 24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. 25For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

God has demanded obedience from the beginning to the end:

Exodus 19:5
'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;

2 Corinthians 10:5
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[UberMink]

These videos need to be brought forth in the later pages of this thread.

Great post! The sheep hear his voice! The goats hate that.

I agree the video's are very simple truths and being they are short, easy to watch.

Do not let the world make you upset. Find the peace of Christ within you and when all around you are swirling in their anger you'll remain at peace. Don't let anyone imply to you that you are not in Christ either. Or state as much directly. Hold to the peace of Christ because a very long time ago there convened a group of mortal persons who decided by election in their own sustained authority what it would mean and for all time to be a Christian. In this effort of sustainability they manufactured the edifice of man under the council of wills and egoism and pride. And this edifice was so authorized that it managed to survive for centuries. Defended by kings and awash in the blood of those opposed.
Then the reformation came. Salvation once more and inspired yet again from on high. People were able to choose without being executed for choosing wrongly. This did not mean those who chose to leave the edifice of man would be free of ridicule and contempt delivered by those who remained faithful to the edifice. However, it did mean that those words would be able to be cast off and put under the blood of our precious Emmanuel. Not under the blood of innocents dedicated to the truth of God in Christ and yet made to perish under the crusade to keep them in line with the commands of that edifice of man's making.

Sola Fide, faith alone, by Christ alone, is truth.
Hold to that as a child of God and one who is in Christ. And let that which adjourns in the shadow of the edifice take their chances holding faith in what men determined was holy.

Sola fide

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Protestant Christianity, as well as some other denominations, from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement, as well as the Methodist Churches.

The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works". All mankind, it is asserted, is fallen and sinful, under the curse of God, and incapable of saving itself from God's wrath and curse. But God, on the basis of the life, death, and resurrection of his Son, Jesus Christ alone (solus Christus), grants sinners judicial pardon, or justification, which is received solely through faith. Faith is seen as passive, merely receiving Christ and all his benefits, among which benefits are the active and passive righteousness of Jesus Christ. Christ's righteousness, according to the followers of "sola fide," is imputed (or attributed) by God to the believing sinner (as opposed to infused or imparted), so that the divine verdict and pardon of the believing sinner is based not upon anything in the sinner, but upon Jesus Christ and his righteousness alone, which are received through faith alone. Justification is by faith alone and is distinguished from the other graces of salvation. See the ordo salutis for more detail on the doctrine of salvation considered more broadly than justification by faith alone.