Futurism&TheTemple

[thightower]

if it is then it implies that he is reigning! the 144k are already dead when john saw them. the early church per the letter of james was talking to other tribes.

revalation isnt all in the future for if it is per revalation 12, then what of Him who was to rule of the nations? i mean is Jesus being born again in the future? or is that some that happened in the past?

Not sure of the 144K, either the decendants of abraham, or believers. Jesus will return a second time to rule the nations.
Its almost as if you don't believe in the second coming of Christ.

 

[Hitch]

Was this event of the Passover Literal or Prophetic [Symbolic]?

3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. 4 If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire--head, legs and inner parts. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. Exodus 12:3-10



Why would any Christian try to convince his brothers and sisters that the events of Revelation 19 took place 1000 years before the book of revelation was written.

Revelation 4:1 teaches us that the visions The Apostle John recorded was about events in the future!

"Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

To teach people that the events of the book of revelation happened in the past is to "take way from the meaning of the prophecy".

Which comes with a similar punishment as preaching "another Gospel".

Read for yourself -


and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

To deny the words of Revelation 19 concerning the return of Jesus Christ by claiming they have their fulfillment in the Old Testament is clearly a deceptive teaching, which seems to be a pattern with you, Stormcrow!


JLB

But is AOK to add thousands of years to verse one? :toofunny:eeeekkk:toofunny

 

[JLB]

But is AOK to add thousands of years to verse one? :toofunny:eeeekkk:toofunny

Revelation 4:1 reveals that what was being shown John was in the future.

That is not adding thousands of years to anything.

That is stating what the scripture says. After this means after, not 1000 years before in the Old Testament.

JLB

 

[Hitch]

Revelation 4:1 reveals that what was being shown John was in the future.

That is not adding thousands of years to anything.

That is stating what the scripture says. After this means after, not 1000 years before in the Old Testament.

JLB

Yet R 1;1-3 remains intact.

 

[JLB]

if it is then it implies that he is reigning! the 144k are already dead when john saw them. the early church per the letter of james was talking to other tribes.

revalation isnt all in the future for if it is per revalation 12, then what of Him who was to rule of the nations? i mean is Jesus being born again in the future? or is that some that happened in the past?

Revelation 12 as well as all of Revelation from chapter 4 on was about the future not the past.

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." Revelation 4:1

From this point forward John was shown "Things which must TAKE PLACE after this".

Everything from chapter 4 - 22 is about events which take place after not events that took place before!

1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 12:1 describes the vision of the woman, the child and the red dragon as a signs!

The word for sign here is - Semeion - Strongs 4592

Definition

1. a sign, mark, token
   1. that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known
   2. a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature
      1. of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen
      2. of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are pleading is God's

Do you believe the woman to be Mary?


JLB

 

[Stormcrow]

Why would any Christian try to convince his brothers and sisters that the events of Revelation 19 took place 1000 years before the book of revelation was written.

:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

That's not what I wrote! Read it again!

Show the document where Josephus documented seeing Jesus return in the clouds where every eye saw Him

Why do you insist on taking His words in this regard literally, when its clear that this same language in the OT is symbolic of God coming in judgment upon a nation???

I wasn't suggesting the events of Revelation 19 were fulfilled in the OT! I was telling you that the language Jesus used to tell His disciples of His coming - which you cited! - is consistent with symbolic language in the OT used to describe God's coming in judgment upon a nation!!!

Understand now??? 2

To deny the words of Revelation 19 concerning the return of Jesus Christ by claiming they have their fulfillment in the Old Testament is clearly a deceptive teaching, which seems to be a pattern with you, Stormcrow!

Given your penchant for completely and utterly misunderstanding the written word, I'm not offended at all.

 

[Hammer]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. (NASB)

The man of lawlessness is the son of destruction. Titus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem, one of history's most significant instances of destruction. Titus: CHECK.

The man of lawlessness would exalt himself over all the gods. Titus entered the temple and claimed to be the supreme divinity. Titus: CHECK.

The temple was then dismantled by the Roman soldiers removing every stone, just as Jesus predicted, to find melted gold. So, there can be no future man of lawlessness entering the temple, because the temple is gone.

I was looking at the Devil's Translation, the HCSB. While every other English translation says the man of lawlessness will show, display, proclaim, or claim himself to be God. The Greek word translated to "show" is used several times in the New Testament, in reference to first century events, such as when Peter says at Pentecost that Jesus showed himself to be of God. The HCSB says the man of lawlessness will publicize that he is God.

"Publicize" is a word commonly associated with modern technology, books and the television media. The HCSB, which has no compunction against lying and misleading to promote Dispensationalist theology, is trying to create an image in the readers mind of a modern activity, not a First century activity.

Also, "publicize" aside from being misleading about the time period is also technically wrong. Publicize is what you might do with a claim, but Paul just said the man of lawlessness would display himself as being God. Paul doesn't say this display would be publicized.

 

[JLB]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. (NASB)

The man of lawlessness is the son of destruction. Titus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem, one of history's most significant instances of destruction. Titus: CHECK.

The man of lawlessness would exalt himself over all the gods. Titus entered the temple and claimed to be the supreme divinity. Titus: CHECK.

The temple was then dismantled by the Roman soldiers removing every stone, just as Jesus predicted, to find melted gold. So, there can be no future man of lawlessness entering the temple, because the temple is gone.

I was looking at the Devil's Translation, the HCSB. While every other English translation says the man of lawlessness will show, display, proclaim, or claim himself to be God. The Greek word translated to "show" is used several times in the New Testament, in reference to first century events, such as when Peter says at Pentecost that Jesus showed himself to be of God. The HCSB says the man of lawlessness will publicize that he is God.

"Publicize" is a word commonly associated with modern technology, books and the television media. The HCSB, which has no compunction against lying and misleading to promote Dispensationalist theology, is trying to create an image in the readers mind of a modern activity, not a First century activity.

Also, "publicize" aside from being misleading about the time period is also technically wrong. Publicize is what you might do with a claim, but Paul just said the man of lawlessness would display himself as being God. Paul doesn't say this display would be publicized.

2 Thessalonians 2 teaches us that three elements must be on earth for this word to be complete.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

1. The Lord, who will destroy him by the brightness of His coming.
2. The lawless one who will deceive by signs and wonders from the temple that he proclaims himself as God from.
3. The Temple.

So the lawless one will proclaim himself as God, deceive by signs and wonders then be destroyed by The Lord at His coming!


Was Titus proclaiming himself as God?


Did Titus work miracles by the power of Satan?



Was Titus destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming?




JLB

 

[jasoncran]

Revelation 12 as well as all of Revelation from chapter 4 on was about the future not the past.

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." Revelation 4:1

From this point forward John was shown "Things which must TAKE PLACE after this".

Everything from chapter 4 - 22 is about events which take place after not events that took place before!

1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 12:1 describes the vision of the woman, the child and the red dragon as a signs!

The word for sign here is - Semeion - Strongs 4592


Definition

1. a sign, mark, token
   1. that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known
   2. a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature
      1. of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen
      2. of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are pleading is God's

Do you believe the woman to be Mary?


JLB

funny my pastor , and a pretribber sees this part as the birth of christ.

in fact i can show you that from a link.

so isreal rules with an iron fist or jesus? when is isreal ever mentioned as a child?

1) A great sign appeared in heaven: (2) a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under here feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and (3) she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

1. A great sign appeared in heaven = is problematic. First, no grammatical connection is indicated between verse one and Revelation 11:19. Second, John does not identify the literal referent of the woman who is described in symbolical language.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The relationship between Revelation 11:19 and 12:1 is a logical one. Having been instructed to prophesy against "many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings," John gives three reasons for God’s prophetic program against the living wicked earth-dwellers (peoples, nations, and tongues). First, they dishonored his house of worship. Second, they abused His holy city. The third reason involves the persecution of the righteous by the wicked. The fourth reason John must prophesy again concerns the kings. Thus, in Revelation 12-13, the prophecy turns against the kings. John will focus on the kings who led the nations against the interests of God. The living wicked earth-dwellers refused to worship God, but chose to worship the Dragon and his beast-king who are God’s temporal enemies. The final outbreak of God’s wrath is justified against the living wicked earth-dwellers and their kings because they are guilty.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In true apocalyptic fashion, John does not state any details explicitly that would give the wicked grounds to further persecute the people of God. Given the outcome, it would not be wise to trumpet too loudly the ultimate victory of the righteous over the wicked. Apocalyptic literature allows the prophet of God to trumpet loudly the ultimate victory of God and His people in a way that the wicked miss the obvious. Therefore, the woman and the child will not be explicitly identified. However, those who know Scripture will find the correct interpretation, easily. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A great sign signals a requirement for the reader to put on special glasses to see beyond the apocalyptic language. The literal event depicted is not the theologically significant event intended. The sign has deeper significance. There are three signs: (1) the woman who gives birth to a special child (Rev 12:1-2); (2) the Dragon who seeks to destroy the special child at birth (Rev 12:3-13:18); and (3) the seven angels who destroy the Dragon and his kingdoms (Rev 15-19).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The verb appeared is often used in the Old Testament to introduce an appearance of God (Gen 12:7); an appearance of an angel (Exod 3:2); and a prophetic vision (Dan 8:1). All three events are depicted in Revelation 12-20. First, a prophetic vision is given of a woman who bears a special child who will rule the nations (Rev 12:1-2). Then an angelic being is introduced who seeks to devour the special child to prevent his rule over the earth (Rev 12:3-13:18). Finally, God appears to put down the rebellion of the Dragon (Rev 15-20). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars = identifies what the first great sign is. The identity of the woman is not explicitly stated, which is consistent with the nature of apocalyptic genre. However, John gives more than enough information to make her identity known.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]First, the woman has cosmic significance. She is clothed with the sun. She stands upon the moon. She wears a crown of twelve stars. Genesis 37:9-10 records that Joseph had a dream similar to the first vision of Revelation 12. The dream indicated that "the sun (Jacob) and the moon (Rachel) and eleven stars (Joseph’s brothers) were bowing down" to Joseph. Jacob the father of Joseph states, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?" The woman is exalted among the sun, moon and stars.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Second, the woman gives birth to a significant child. A child "who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron." This is a direct allusion to Psalms 2:9, which indicates that this child is a king, a Son of God. Third, God divinely protects the woman for three and a half years from the Dragon. These three facts make the woman’s identity clear. She can be none other than the unsaved remnant of Jews divinely elected by God to survive the Seventieth Week of Daniel.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Israel (the nation) is clearly not all divinely protected during the time of distress (Rev 7:1-8; Dan 12:1). Therefore, "the woman" cannot be every single member of the twelve tribes of Israel. Messianic Jews will be taken in the Rapture and will not need divine protection for three and a half years. Similarly, messianic Jews (in the historical sense) did not exist before the birth of Christ. Therefore, they could not have given birth to the Son. That leaves the unsaved remnant of Jews present in every generation. Depending on the emphasis, a list of the twelve tribes of Israel may or may not contain Levi, Joseph, Manasseh and Ephraim. Thus, the twelve stars on the woman’s head represent the twelve original tribes, minus Manasseh and Ephraim. The moon is Rachel, the mother of Judah who anchors the family as Jacob’s first wife. The sun is Jacob who covers the twelve tribes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The remnant of Israel is that elect group of Jews who experience God’s mercy in every generation. Thus, the remnant is the woman who ultimately gave birth to the Son who will rule the world as prophesied by Jacob in Genesis 49:9.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. She was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth = bring us to the point of delivery. Conception and pregnancy is not in focus. This indicates that the author’s interest in this story is summary in fashion[/FONT]​

​

from here.

http://www.revelationcommentary.org/12_chapter.html

out there and tries to push this as future event but uhm , yeah lets look at this from genesis 49:9

8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

hmm shiloh came, that is when the last king of judah was removed by nebuchadnesser. so even if i was to see isreal come again that would still mean baby jesus.


rashi says that is messianic promise.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8244/showrashi/true

http://studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=049

adam clarke agrees.

so it must be jesus is some shape form or another.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Show me where in Jospehus it says Titus entered the Temple And claimed to be Divine, that's not there. Here is the Historical account
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm
Titus does not make any kind of speech until the Temple was already destroyed, and even then he does not claim divinity for himself, he wouldn't even become Emperor for nearly a Decade, and neither he or his father claimed divinity while they lived, they weren't Caligula.

Son of Predition is a a title that was given to Judas, who went "To his own place i.e. the Abyss, Apollyon is the Son of Apolyeia.

 

[JLB]

funny my pastor , and a pretribber sees this part as the birth of christ.

in fact i can show you that from a link.

so isreal rules with an iron fist or jesus? when is isreal ever mentioned as a child?

[/INDENT]from here.

http://www.revelationcommentary.org/12_chapter.html

out there and tries to push this as future event but uhm , yeah lets look at this from genesis 49:9



hmm shiloh came, that is when the last king of judah was removed by nebuchadnesser. so even if i was to see isreal come again that would still mean baby jesus.


rashi says that is messianic promise.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8244/showrashi/true

http://studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=049

adam clarke agrees.

so it must be jesus is some shape form or another.

You have said alot of things that I have not.


Do you believe the woman to be Mary?

I can tell by your answer you do not.

I am not asking you to prove what you believe, Just what you believe in your gut!


JLB

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Hitch,

OP - Should the predictions of yet another temple be correct it should not be too much to ask wrt the WHY... What reason would God have in restoring the temple?

If a physical temple is ever built it will only serve the same purpose that the reestablishing of the physical nation of Israel is serving. The establishing of the physical nation of Israel has served only to take the minds of the masses of Christians off of the true temple of God:

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that YOU are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."

1Co 3:9 "For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building."

1Pet 2:5 "You also, as living stones, are built up into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

And so,

2Th 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


Since "we" are the true temple of God, then "who" is the man of sin who sitteth in the temple of God? You and I have been the "man of sin" who has occupied that temple for so long, serving our own lusts and worshiping ourselves in the process.

If a physical temple is built this will be the truth of that matter:

Acts 7:48 "However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says"


All of the preachers who think that physical (natural) Israel is God's chosen people will be misled to support something in which God "does not dwell".




A misunderstanding of Israel's true identity is at the very heart of so many false doctrines.

Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Notice how Paul applies the promises to the converted Gentiles of Corinth:

2Co 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

And which promises are "these promises" which the Gentile converts at Corinth now possess?

2Co 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."


Notice above how Paul was quoting Leviticus 26:12 as if it is a promise to converted Gentile Corinthians:

Lev 26:12 "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."

(Lev 26 is a continuation of the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai)


It is obvious that Paul did not subscribe to the "Israel Identity" doctrine of many Christians who are still unknowingly 'under the law.' So far as the holy spirit which inspired these words through the pen of Paul is concerned there is but ONE "house of Israel" and ONE "seed of Abraham" because "if you are in Christ, then are you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

Gal 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


Is this saying 'then are you also Abraham's seed, or is it saying 'only then are you exclusively Abraham's seed?'

Does being physically descended from Abraham make one Abraham's seed? Is there any advantage to being a physical descendant of Abraham?

Rom 2:28 "For he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Gal 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."


The "Israel of God" is IN CHRIST JESUS. It is SPIRITUAL, not NATURAL. All of this aligns with a divine principle which is followed throughout the entire Word of God, which is: That which is first is NOT spiritual, but that which is natural is first, and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The FIRST MAN is of the earth, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven."


The "natural" is FIRST, and AFTERWARD the spiritual. That is the whole lesson behind:

• Able replacing Cain;
• Isaac replacing Ishmael;
• Jacob replacing Esau;
• Rachel replacing Leah;
• David replacing King Saul;
• Israel (spiritual) replacing Israel (natural);
• The spiritual temple replacing the physical temple;
• etc.

When this principle is understood and properly applied, this is its conclusion:

Eph 2:11 "Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands -
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Eph 2:17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God"


If the Ephesians are no longer "Gentiles in the flesh made with hands," what then are they? We just read: "For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation"


Rom 2:28-29, Eph 2:11-19, Gal 3 and 4, Gal 6:15-16, all make clear that the name Israel is now applied only to God's "made of twain, one new man."


"He is NOT a Jew which is one outwardly," and that God is in the process of "making of twain (physical and spiritual Israelites) one new man."


Rom 2:28 "For he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself ONE NEW MAN from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in ONE BODY through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.."


Until Christians understand what, or "who" the temple is (you and I), and understand who Israel is (those who are in Christ), people will continue to believe in the nonsensical theories that fill bookstores and deceive the masses - such as, "anticipating a physical temple for a physical Israel."

 

[jasoncran]

You have said alot of things that I have not.


Do you believe the woman to be Mary?

I can tell by your answer you do not.

I am not asking you to prove what you believe, Just what you believe in your gut!


JLB

yes i do. she is off isreal. symbols.

but to be totally truthful no one knows and i will read more into the links

gut? yeah trust that? the one that well was into the occult? believes that there will be another civil war if obama wins and pushes the right buttons?

 

[JLB]

If a physical temple is ever built it will only serve the same purpose that the reestablishing of the physical nation of Israel is serving. The establishing of the physical nation of Israel has served only to take the minds of the masses of Christians off of the true temple of God:

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that YOU are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple YOU ARE."

1Co 3:9 "For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building."

1Pet 2:5 "You also, as living stones, are built up into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

And so,

2Th 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


Since "we" are the true temple of God, then "who" is the man of sin who sitteth in the temple of God? You and I have been the "man of sin" who has occupied that temple for so long, serving our own lusts and worshiping ourselves in the process.

If a physical temple is built this will be the truth of that matter:

Acts 7:48 "However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says"


All of the preachers who think that physical (natural) Israel is God's chosen people will be misled to support something in which God "does not dwell".




A misunderstanding of Israel's true identity is at the very heart of so many false doctrines.

Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Notice how Paul applies the promises to the converted Gentiles of Corinth:

2Co 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

And which promises are "these promises" which the Gentile converts at Corinth now possess?

2Co 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."


Notice above how Paul was quoting Leviticus 26:12 as if it is a promise to converted Gentile Corinthians:

Lev 26:12 "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."

(Lev 26 is a continuation of the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai)


It is obvious that Paul did not subscribe to the "Israel Identity" doctrine of many Christians who are still unknowingly 'under the law.' So far as the holy spirit which inspired these words through the pen of Paul is concerned there is but ONE "house of Israel" and ONE "seed of Abraham" because "if you are in Christ, then are you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

Gal 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


Is this saying 'then are you also Abraham's seed, or is it saying 'only then are you exclusively Abraham's seed?'

Does being physically descended from Abraham make one Abraham's seed? Is there any advantage to being a physical descendant of Abraham?

Rom 2:28 "For he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Gal 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God."


The "Israel of God" is IN CHRIST JESUS. It is SPIRITUAL, not NATURAL. All of this aligns with a divine principle which is followed throughout the entire Word of God, which is: That which is first is NOT spiritual, but that which is natural is first, and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The FIRST MAN is of the earth, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven."


The "natural" is FIRST, and AFTERWARD the spiritual. That is the whole lesson behind:

• Able replacing Cain;
• Isaac replacing Ishmael;
• Jacob replacing Esau;
• Rachel replacing Leah;
• David replacing King Saul;
• Israel (spiritual) replacing Israel (natural);
• The spiritual temple replacing the physical temple;
• etc.

When this principle is understood and properly applied, this is its conclusion:

Eph 2:11 "Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands -
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Eph 2:17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God"


If the Ephesians are no longer "Gentiles in the flesh made with hands," what then are they? We just read: "For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation"


Rom 2:28-29, Eph 2:11-19, Gal 3 and 4, Gal 6:15-16, all make clear that the name Israel is now applied only to God's "made of twain, one new man."


"He is NOT a Jew which is one outwardly," and that God is in the process of "making of twain (physical and spiritual Israelites) one new man."


Rom 2:28 "For he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself ONE NEW MAN from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in ONE BODY through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.."


Until Christians understand what, or "who" the temple is (you and I), and understand who Israel is (those who are in Christ), people will continue to believe in the nonsensical theories that fill bookstores and deceive the masses - such as, "anticipating a physical temple for a physical Israel."

And I guess natural Jerusalem has no meaning today either.


JLB

 

[Hitch]

And I guess natural Jerusalem has no meaning today either.


JLB

Duh.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by JLB,

And I guess natural Jerusalem has no meaning today either.

Well, it's not that they have NO meaning. Every place and every one has a 'meaning.'

Gal 4:23 "But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar,
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS, and is in bondage with her children -
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all..
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."


Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS (natural Jerusalem), is the son of the bondwoman.

"Jerusalem which now is" is no more Jerusalem than the children of the flesh are of Abraham, or a Jew which "is one outwardly" is a Jew.

Rom 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."



It is hard to accept the fact that God has but one Israel, one Jacob, one Judah and one Jerusalem. He does not have a physical AND a spiritual Jew or Israelite. He has but one seed, those who are IN CHRIST. The promises given in 2 Corinthians ch. 6 and elsewhere are for those who are "in Christ."

Genesis tells us of Abraham learning that Ishmael was to be rejected as Abraham's seed: "The thing was very grievous to Abraham..." just as it was very grievous to Paul to have to come to see that his "kinsman according to the flesh...these are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted for the seed... and we brethren [Gentile Galatians] as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

And what are we told is Ishmael's relation to Isaac, now that he has been pronounced "the cast out son of the bondwoman?" Is he now to somehow be counted as a son of Abraham? Here is the 'grievous' scriptural answer:

Gen 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son."



There is but ONE 'Israel,' and it is not "according to the flesh":

Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh."



Jesus said,

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Christ's very first sermon after His baptism by John, informed His listening audience that the gospel was going to the Gentiles, and it almost got Him killed:

Luke 4:29 "And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong."

When Christ informed these same Jews that "the flesh profits nothing..." many who walked with Him "went back and no longer walked with Him." It may have been all but the twelve:

John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

The stripping away of the flesh (carnal mind) is what Salvation is all about. The Truth is, 'the flesh profits nothing'.

 

[JLB]

Well, it's not that they have NO meaning. Every place and every one has a 'meaning.'

Gal 4:23 "But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar,
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS, and is in bondage with her children -
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all..
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."


Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS (natural Jerusalem), is the son of the bondwoman.

"Jerusalem which now is" is no more Jerusalem than the children of the flesh are of Abraham, or a Jew which "is one outwardly" is a Jew.

Rom 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."



It is hard to accept the fact that God has but one Israel, one Jacob, one Judah and one Jerusalem. He does not have a physical AND a spiritual Jew or Israelite. He has but one seed, those who are IN CHRIST. The promises given in 2 Corinthians ch. 6 and elsewhere are for those who are "in Christ."

Genesis tells us of Abraham learning that Ishmael was to be rejected as Abraham's seed: "The thing was very grievous to Abraham..." just as it was very grievous to Paul to have to come to see that his "kinsman according to the flesh...these are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted for the seed... and we brethren [Gentile Galatians] as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

And what are we told is Ishmael's relation to Isaac, now that he has been pronounced "the cast out son of the bondwoman?" Is he now to somehow be counted as a son of Abraham? Here is the 'grievous' scriptural answer:

Gen 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son."



There is but ONE 'Israel,' and it is not "according to the flesh":

Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh."



Jesus said,

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Christ's very first sermon after His baptism by John, informed His listening audience that the gospel was going to the Gentiles, and it almost got Him killed:

Luke 4:29 "And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong."

When Christ informed these same Jews that "the flesh profits nothing..." many who walked with Him "went back and no longer walked with Him." It may have been all but the twelve:

John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

The stripping away of the flesh (carnal mind) is what Salvation is all about. The Truth is, 'the flesh profits nothing'.

Looks like you got your wires crossed on this subject like so many others.

You have taken a term "the flesh" and white washed everything with it to come up with your own brand new "religion".

just as it was very grievous to Paul to have to come to see that his "kinsman according to the flesh...these are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted for the seed... and we brethren [Gentile Galatians] as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Children of the promise = Isaac

Children of the flesh = Ismael


Here is what Paul said -

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. 6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

It is not the all natural Jews you have distinguished as children of the flesh.

When Christ informed these same Jews that "the flesh profits nothing..." many who walked with Him "went back and no longer walked with Him." It may have been all but the twelve:

You seem to have a knack for taking scriptures out of context and misquoting.

That is NOT the saying that made them turn away -

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.


56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

That is the saying the made some stop following Him.

"Jerusalem which now is" is no more Jerusalem than the children of the flesh are of Abraham, or a Jew which "is one outwardly" is a Jew.

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17


Someone must have forgot to tell The Lord about your statement!


JLB

 

[Hitch]

0 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17

Someone must have forgot to tell The Lord about your statement!

And Paul too;

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[JLB]

0 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.





Someone must have forgot to tell The Lord about your statement!

And Paul too;

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

We don't have to go to Jerusalem to worship The Father.
That fact does not have anything to do with my statement.

Nor does Romans 14:17. Your reaching, but not getting there.

Please try again.

Thanks. JLB

 

[Hitch]

6 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

It has everything to do with your citation .