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Futurism&TheTemple

  • Thread starter Thread starter Hitch
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The Temple is clearly part of the end Time Scenario according to John, written after the Temple was destroyed already.

If you want to build doctrine on saying Titus did that, your going to need historical documentation that he did.
 
The Temple is clearly part of the end Time Scenario according to John, written after the Temple was destroyed already.

If you want to build doctrine on saying Titus did that, your going to need historical documentation that he did.

There's no internal evidence that any book of the Bible was written after 70AD. Paul wrote about the man of lawlessness entering the temple. Paul died before 70AD.

It's a matter of historical fact that Titus entered the temple and claimed to be God. You choose to ignore the facts.

You still have a problem that the temple is GONE. It's impossible for anyone else to enter the physical temple of God. You choose to ignore the impossibility of your theology.
 
The message to laodicea clearly references the city haven't been recently destroyed and rebuilt, the rebuilding happened under Domitian.

Cite me the historical documentation of that? Titus most certainly did not claim divinity when he wasn't even Emperor yet. His father wouldn't have stood for that.

I believe it will be rebuilt, the groundwork for rebuilding it already being laid, and once people realize that it can be rebuilt without harming either the Dome of the Rock or that other Mosque someone will be able to work an agreement out.
 
The message to laodicea clearly references the city haven't been recently destroyed and rebuilt, the rebuilding happened under Domitian.

If it fit your man-made theology, you'd argue that the earthquakes that destroyed Laodicea were those prophesied as signs.

Tacitis records, "One of the famous cities of Asia, Laodicea, was that same year overthrown by an earthquake, and, without any relief from us, recovered itself by its own resources". The city was rebuilt right away, under Nero, not over 20 years later as you claim.

Cite me the historical documentation of that? Titus most certainly did not claim divinity when he wasn't even Emperor yet. His father wouldn't have stood for that.

Josephus records, "Upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator." Imperator, in Roman context, means God. Imperator (emperor) means supreme ruler. After all, he had just defeated the god of the Jews, in his mind. The Roman Caesars -- including Titus -- claimed divinity, so Titus was made the supreme divinity, i.e. God.

I believe it will be rebuilt, the groundwork for rebuilding it already being laid, and once people realize that it can be rebuilt without harming either the Dome of the Rock or that other Mosque someone will be able to work an agreement out.

You can believe that 2+2=5, but it's still completely senseless. The temple of God is gone. Nothing else built will be the temple of God.
 
These men made the temple of God a strong hold for them, and a place whither they might resort, in order to avoid the troubles they feared from the people; the sanctuary was now become a refuge, and a shop of tyranny. They also mixed jesting among the miseries they introduced, which was more intolerable than what they did; for in order to try what surprise the people would be under, and how far their own power extended, they undertook to dispose of the high priesthood by casting lots for it, whereas, as we have said already, it was to descend by succession in a family. The pretense they made for this strange attempt was an ancient practice, while they said that of old it was determined by lot; but in truth, it was no better than a dissolution of an undeniable law, and a cunning contrivance to seize upon the government, derived from those that presumed to appoint governors as they themselves pleased.

8. Hereupon they sent for one of the pontifical tribes, which is called Eniachim, and cast lots which of it should be the high priest. By fortune the lot so fell as to demonstrate their iniquity after the plainest manner, for it fell upon one whose name was Phannias, the son of Samuel, of the village Aphtha. He was a man not only unworthy of the high priesthood, but that did not well know what the high priesthood was, such a mere rustic was he! Yet did they hail this man, without his own consent, out of the country, as if they were acting a play upon the stage, and adorned him with a counterfeit thee; they also put upon him the sacred garments, and upon every occasion instructed him what he was to do. This horrid piece of wickedness was sport and pastime with them, but occasioned the other priests, who at a distance saw their law made a jest of, to shed tears, and sorely lament the dissolution of such a sacred dignity.

9. And now the people could no longer bear the insolence of this procedure, but did all together run zealously, in order to overthrow that tyranny; and indeed they were Gorion the son of Josephus, and Symeon the son of Gamaliel, who encouraged them, by going up and down when they were assembled together in crowds, and as they saw them alone, to bear no longer, but to inflict punishment upon these pests and plagues of their freedom, and to purge the temple of these bloody polluters of it. The best esteemed also of the high priests, Jesus the son of Gamalas, and Ananus the son of Ananus when they were at their assemblies, bitterly reproached the people for their sloth, and excited them against the zealots; for that was the name they went by, as if they were zealous in good undertakings, and were not rather zealous in the worst actions, and extravagant in them beyond the example of others.

10. And now, when the multitude were gotten together to an assembly, and every one was in indignation at these men's seizing upon the sanctuary, at their rapine and murders, but had not yet begun their attacks upon them, (the reason of which was this, that they imagined it to be a difficult thing to suppress these zealots, as indeed the case was,) Ananus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes, he said, "Certainly it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places, that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these blood-shedding villains

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 767.
 
These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of men, and laughed at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers; yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning [the rewards of] virtue, and [punishments of] vice, which when these zealots violated, they occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their own country; for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 780.

The city of Jerusalem was a hollowed-out shell by the time the Romans breached its walls and burned its Temple: the zealots - led by John of Gischala - saw to that.
 
By this time John [of Gischala] was beginning to tyrannize, and thought it beneath him to accept of barely the same honors that others had; and joining to himself by degrees a party of the wickedest of them all, he broke off from the rest of the faction. This was brought about by his still disagreeing with the opinions of others, and giving out injunctions of his own, in a very imperious manner; so that it was evident he was setting up a monarchical power.

Now some submitted to him out of their fear of him, and others out of their good-will to him; for he was a shrewd man to entice men to him, both by deluding them and putting cheats upon them. Nay, many there were that thought they should be safer themselves, if the causes of their past insolent actions should now be reduced to one head, and not to a great many. His activity was so great, and that both in action and in counsel, that he had not a few guards about him

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 780.

I see John of Gischala as the "man of lawlessness" Paul wrote about to the Thessalonians.
 
JLB? who was on the throne. when it says and they fled before him who sat on the throne?
 
If it fit your man-made theology, you'd argue that the earthquakes that destroyed Laodicea were those prophesied as signs.

Tacitis records, "One of the famous cities of Asia, Laodicea, was that same year overthrown by an earthquake, and, without any relief from us, recovered itself by its own resources". The city was rebuilt right away, under Nero, not over 20 years later as you claim.



Josephus records, "Upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator." Imperator, in Roman context, means God. Imperator (emperor) means supreme ruler. After all, he had just defeated the god of the Jews, in his mind. The Roman Caesars -- including Titus -- claimed divinity, so Titus was made the supreme divinity, i.e. God.





You can believe that 2+2=5, but it's still completely senseless. The temple of God is gone. Nothing else built will be the temple of God.

Show the document where Josephus documented seeing Jesus return in the clouds where every eye saw Him
 
How could a person miss it? Revelation 11;15-19.

15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.†16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
 
How could a person miss it? Revelation 11;15-19.

15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.†16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.â€

19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
the thousand year reign implies and end. sorry that doesnt support that.
 
That scripture isn't about the 1000 year reign. It is events to happen on the day of our Lord, the second coming of Christ.


its revelant as you are pre millenial. how can a millenium have an end of his reign when it says he reigns forever?

besides. he is on the throne now. and they fled from him who WAS ON THE THRONE
 
Maybe I should of used Revelation 19;11-16

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS
 
Show the document where Josephus documented seeing Jesus return in the clouds where every eye saw Him

Why do you insist on taking His words in this regard literally, when its clear that this same language in the OT is symbolic of God coming in judgment upon a nation???
 
so you dont believe this?

rev 9
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

so where on the whole earth do men in mass worship idols like that? i dont know of a lot of americans and westernerns who bow to wooden idols.

rev 4:10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,


i dont pretend to say all of it has passed, but some of it has.
 
so you dont believe this?

rev 9


so where on the whole earth do men in mass worship idols like that? i dont know of a lot of americans and westernerns who bow to wooden idols.

rev 4:10



i dont pretend to say all of it has passed, but some of it has.

Yes, I do believe this. Revelation 9;20 is tied to the 6th trumpet, which hasn't happened yet, there has not been a 200 million man army at the river euphrates yet, also at this trumpet 1/3 of mankind dies.
Revelation 4;10 is a scene straight from heaven itself.
 
Why do you insist on taking His words in this regard literally, when its clear that this same language in the OT is symbolic of God coming in judgment upon a nation???

Was this event of the Passover Literal or Prophetic [Symbolic]?

3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. 4 If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire--head, legs and inner parts. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. Exodus 12:3-10



Why would any Christian try to convince his brothers and sisters that the events of Revelation 19 took place 1000 years before the book of revelation was written.

Revelation 4:1 teaches us that the visions The Apostle John recorded was about events in the future!

"Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

To teach people that the events of the book of revelation happened in the past is to "take way from the meaning of the prophecy".

Which comes with a similar punishment as preaching "another Gospel".

Read for yourself -


and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

To deny the words of Revelation 19 concerning the return of Jesus Christ by claiming they have their fulfillment in the Old Testament is clearly a deceptive teaching, which seems to be a pattern with you, Stormcrow!


JLB
 
Yes, I do believe this. Revelation 9;20 is tied to the 6th trumpet, which hasn't happened yet, there has not been a 200 million man army at the river euphrates yet, also at this trumpet 1/3 of mankind dies.
Revelation 4;10 is a scene straight from heaven itself.
if it is then it implies that he is reigning! the 144k are already dead when john saw them. the early church per the letter of james was talking to other tribes.

revalation isnt all in the future for if it is per revalation 12, then what of Him who was to rule of the nations? i mean is Jesus being born again in the future? or is that some that happened in the past?
 
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