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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Osgiliath
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Thanks smalls. There is more to the sequence, but I figured the 70 Weeks was enough to digest for this particular discussion. Unfortunately, I did that using MS Paint believe it or not. Since then, I've gotten a Mac and spent a year studying PHP, HTML, and CSS, and I'm thinking about giving that study a graphics overhaul. I'm an old guy, so I'm a late bloomer in the web design world, but I'm finally caught up.
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smaller
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- Oct 23, 2003
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I thought the time sequence past the cross point was much more interesting as up to date sights are often the most relevant to us currently engaged...;)
I don't often write of them as they as those who work the comparative realms 'legitimately' are a rare find as there are certain rules one is led into and those who have been likewise led are openly and instantly obvious (via fruit) and such often have many gems of exchange to build in benefits and fill in gaps or even the minute details missed by one and picked up by another of understandings that can be most helpfully filled, and is always a general Divine Intention and Path.
Narrow road, few travelers. Those there upon are not destroyers of our fellows.
s
I don't often write of them as they as those who work the comparative realms 'legitimately' are a rare find as there are certain rules one is led into and those who have been likewise led are openly and instantly obvious (via fruit) and such often have many gems of exchange to build in benefits and fill in gaps or even the minute details missed by one and picked up by another of understandings that can be most helpfully filled, and is always a general Divine Intention and Path.
Narrow road, few travelers. Those there upon are not destroyers of our fellows.
s
O
Osgiliath
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Yes, they are ;)
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I addressed all the scriptures you quoted. Post #278 -
I totally agree that we as born again believers are the temple of the God, that the Holy Spirit dwells "in" us.
Daniel 9 however is not referring to a spiritual temple.
Daniel 9:26 -
...the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
This is referring to the natural temple of God in Jerusalem.
Likewise, verse 27 is referring to a natural temple in Jerusalem.
Are we in agreement so far?
JLB
- Jul 13, 2012
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I have a question for you.
How long is the pause between the seven weeks and the sixty two weeks.
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
JLB
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The third temple that will be built in order to resume sacrifice and offerings can be viewed at this link -
The Temple Institute: The Holy Temple in Jerusalem: Yesterday Tomorrow Today
THIS SITE TELLS THE STORY OF THE HOLY TEMPLE in words and pictures. It is a story that spans the millennia, from the beginning of creation, to the establishment of the Third Holy Temple, as foretold by every prophet of Israel. Thus, it is a story still unfolding, the most exciting chapters being written now, in our own times.
The Covenant that the prince who is to come [Daniel 9:27] will "confirm" is most likely The Jerusalem Covenant, which can be viewed at the following link -
The Jerusalem Covenant
It will take a leader in the seat of Great Authority, even World Governing Authority, to "confirm" this Covenant that will allow this Temple to be rebuilt as it did at the beginning of Daniel's prophecy to Start the process when Cyrus who was king of the World Governing Empire of Persia.
Then Artaxerxes caused the work to cease, which is the pause in between the seventh week and sixty two weeks of Daniel's prophecy. [Dan 9:25]
23 Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. 24 Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24
Then what started the prophetic clock ticking again until Messiah The Prince was a decree from Darius, a king in the seat of World Governing Authority to allow the work to continue.
1 Then King Darius issued a decree, and a search was made in the archives, where the treasures were stored in Babylon. 2 And at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of Media, a scroll was found, and in it a record was written thus: 3 In the first year of King Cyrus, King Cyrus issued a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem: "Let the house be rebuilt, the place where they offered sacrifices; and let the foundations of it be firmly laid, its height sixty cubits and its width sixty cubits, 4 with three rows of heavy stones and one row of new timber. Let the expenses be paid from the king's treasury. 5 Also let the gold and silver articles of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took from the temple which is in Jerusalem and brought to Babylon, be restored and taken back to the temple which is in Jerusalem, each to its place; and deposit them in the house of God"-- 6 Now therefore, Tattenai, governor of the region beyond the River, and Shethar-Boznai, and your companions the Persians who are beyond the River, keep yourselves far from there. 7 Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God on its site. 8 Moreover I issue a decree as to what you shall do for the elders of these Jews, for the building of this house of God: Let the cost be paid at the king's expense from taxes on the region beyond the River; this is to be given immediately to these men, so that they are not hindered. 9 And whatever they need--young bulls, rams, and lambs for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the request of the priests who are in Jerusalem--let it be given them day by day without fail, 10 that they may offer sacrifices of sweet aroma to the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king and his sons. 11 Also I issue a decree that whoever alters this edict, let a timber be pulled from his house and erected, and let him be hanged on it; and let his house be made a refuse heap because of this. 12 And may the God who causes His name to dwell there destroy any king or people who put their hand to alter it, or to destroy this house of God which is in Jerusalem. I Darius issue a decree; let it be done diligently. 13 Then Tattenai, governor of the region beyond the River, Shethar-Boznai, and their companions diligently did according to what King Darius had sent. 14 So the elders of the Jews built, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they built and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the command of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. Ezra 6:1-14
Persia at the time was The World Governing Empire or The Seat of World Government.
So shall it be in these last days, that a ruler of Great Authority, the prince of the people to come shall "confirm a covenant with many for one week", that will allow this Temple to be rebuilt!
JLB
What can be holy about a temple and its sacrifices? It would be the very essence of evil. Christ was/is the Lamb of God.
Over and over you say that temple is holy. God is not there what makes you believe that temple is holy? If you don't believe it is why do you repeat over and over that is "the holy temple?"
O
Osgiliath
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- #291
The fact that you are asking me this question tells me you did not read my study, because the answer is thoroughly and meticulously explained over and over in that study. I'll answer your question again here if you insist, but we have to get a few basic details covered first:
- Do you know what a "WEEK" is? Do you know what makes it "a week", and what the purpose is for "a week" and where in the Scriptures the entire concept of "a week" is discussed?
- Do you know what "A WEEK OF WEEKS" is? Do you know why a "week of weeks" is significant?
- Do you know what a "Jubilee Period" (cycle) is? Do you know why a "Jubilee Period" is significant?
- Do you know that "Jubilee Periods" have everything to do with the 70 Weeks?
- How would you know where you would start the count of the "69 Weeks" (483 Years)? How would you know "what year" in time marked the beginning of the counting of the 69 Weeks?
- Do you know "which of the four decrees" that were given to rebuild Jerusalem was the correct decree to begin counting the "seven weeks and sixty-two weeks?"
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.'" (Daniel 9:25)
- Four decrees were issued for the restoration of Jerusalem. Cyrus gave the first decree in the Friday year of 536 B.C. (Ezra 1) Darius gave the second decree in the Monday year of 519 B.C. (Ezra 6) Artaxerxes gave the third and fourth decrees in the Sunday year of 457 B.C. and the Sabbath year of 444 B.C. (Ezra 7 and Nehemiah 2, respectively)
- Which decree was it? And why?
- Do you even know why God used the concept of "weeks" instead of "years" to indicate the synchrony of the 70 Weeks?
- Do you know why God separated the 69 weeks into two smaller pieces – and why the first piece was a Jubilee Period (7 Weeks)?
- Do you know why "Weeks" (Sevens) MUST begin with a "Sunday Year?"
- Do you know why "a Sunday Year" is significant when it comes to knowing where to begin the count of the 69 Weeks?
If you can't thoroughly answer the above questions (the basics) using the Scriptures, then you really don't have any business promoting your ideas regarding the 70 Weeks. You obviously do not understand what the 70 Weeks really are, and you are just repeating the indoctrination you have received by denominations and teachers who THEMSELVES have no idea what the 70 weeks really are, or what "a week", a "week of weeks", a "Jubilee Period" etc. even IS, or why the understanding of each and every one of these essential concepts is critical.
If you can thoroughly answer the above questions concerning "a week", "a week of weeks", "a Jubilee Period", "the Four Decrees issued to rebuild Jerusalem", "a Sunday Year", and "why God chose to use 'Weeks', and 'Weeks of Weeks' rather than Years" for the synchrony of time, then we can continue with "a serious, honest, scholarly discussion" about the 70 Weeks, including the "pause" you are proposing. If you can't answer, then it's obvious you aren't for real, and are just here to argue, rather than have a mature, honest discussion.
- Here is the link once again to my study JLB. All the Biblical (not man's theoretical) answers are there. If you read with an objective, open mind, I think you might actually enjoy it:
- https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xrqkn93mw947llb/2bGxPgYo0n
PS - Just in case you're wondering, I'm NOT a preterist. Though I believe futurists/dispensationalists promote false doctrine and are part of the harlot, Babylon (all denominations are), I do not subscribe to preterism either. Both preterism and dispensationalism/futurism are alternate, opposing eschatologies that are equally erroneous, and both only know Christ "after the flesh". Neither are "spiritually" discerned. They do not know the "IS, WAS, WILL BE" nature of Christ's Words. They know only "one-third" of Christ. Preterists only know the Past. Futurists only know the Future. What they both miss is the fact that the Spirit of ALL prophecy (which is "the testimony of Christ" - Revelation 19:10) is written to each and EVERY successive generation SINCE Christ! The "time is at hand" for ALL, at ANY time, who "keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book". These things that will "shortly come to pass" are for "every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book." Those who only know Christ "after the flesh" and discern the sayings of Christ using the wisdom of natural man, miss this entire profound truth - for it is "spiritually discerned."
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jasoncran
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so why do you as a futurist believe that only has to save jews in the fashion that they must be in isreal to be called isreal? well i will use our terms to define what type of jew is.
will all ashkenazi jews be saved? will all separdic jews be saved? and finnaly yeminite jews which chiefly live in isreal and each of these are distinct in names and how they speak hebrew and whether yiddish is used. my family can speak yiddish and i used the askenazi jewish way of spelling channukah, and chabad.org is also of that. each of these groups sees the torah differently. for instance in the first two groups polygamy is bad and a sin, and the yeminite jews allow it but seldom do it.
so which jews do you exactly mean by being in isreal? as not all jews will be there if he were to rapture the church today or since you arent a pre tribber. will there be a jewish mass return to isreal where all jews are in isreal?
will all ashkenazi jews be saved? will all separdic jews be saved? and finnaly yeminite jews which chiefly live in isreal and each of these are distinct in names and how they speak hebrew and whether yiddish is used. my family can speak yiddish and i used the askenazi jewish way of spelling channukah, and chabad.org is also of that. each of these groups sees the torah differently. for instance in the first two groups polygamy is bad and a sin, and the yeminite jews allow it but seldom do it.
so which jews do you exactly mean by being in isreal? as not all jews will be there if he were to rapture the church today or since you arent a pre tribber. will there be a jewish mass return to isreal where all jews are in isreal?
smaller
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- Oct 23, 2003
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When speaking of futurism and the temple many try to look to these matters as external and a physical rebuilding in Israel with animal sacrifices, etc etc.
There is no doubt that there were certainly external matters of temple and times.
In the ways of spiritual understandings it is quite pointless to look to the external any longer.
Those who try to define futurism and temple solely on the basis of external matters are going to continue to run into dead ends and are waiting for visible sights and signs that really don't have much if anything to do with matters of eschatology.
Anyone who cracks open Revelation without firm grounding in spiritual associations will understand little if any of same.
So, in these matters, they may be matters of interest looking back, as Osgiliath's timeline is.
The reals questions for us as believers are matters of current relevance.
If some say they are waiting for Israel to physically rebuild a temple and carry on with animal sacrifice so they can set their end time clock, I'd doubt God would be any more impressed with that effort now than when it ceased the last time.
s
There is no doubt that there were certainly external matters of temple and times.
In the ways of spiritual understandings it is quite pointless to look to the external any longer.
Those who try to define futurism and temple solely on the basis of external matters are going to continue to run into dead ends and are waiting for visible sights and signs that really don't have much if anything to do with matters of eschatology.
Anyone who cracks open Revelation without firm grounding in spiritual associations will understand little if any of same.
So, in these matters, they may be matters of interest looking back, as Osgiliath's timeline is.
The reals questions for us as believers are matters of current relevance.
If some say they are waiting for Israel to physically rebuild a temple and carry on with animal sacrifice so they can set their end time clock, I'd doubt God would be any more impressed with that effort now than when it ceased the last time.
s
- Jul 13, 2012
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I appreciate the fact that you have studied this area of scripture for a long time.
However, You have "your theory" about what the scriptures "say/mean" to you and you seem to be very "proud" of it and I doubt anyone could say anything, from the scriptures to change what you now have come to believe.
You first mistake was to assign a physical year to your study. Where did they come from?
Here is one of many All the Biblical (not man's theoretical) answers I enjoyed from the "scriptures" -
(The year)
Where did you find that in the scriptures?
Your smoke screen of many questions is to hide the fact that you will not answer my simple question that pertains to the discussion.
I will post my question again -
Does Daniel 9:26 refer to a natural temple or a spiritual temple?
Here is what the scripture says -
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. Matthew 1:17
If you assign a generation 40 years this is how the first 69 weeks lays out -
Babylonian Captivity to Christ = 14 generations = 560 years
Time of Captivity = 70 years
560 -70 = 490 years
Gap between 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 40 years = 1 Generation
33 = Birth to “Palm Sundayâ€
490 - 40 = 450 years + 33 years “Birth†to Messiah the Prince 483 years = 69 weeks
[Decree of Cyrus to Messiah the Prince; "Hosanna" to the son of David]
JLB
smaller
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There is no doubt that Jesus Himself was The Temple in flesh, killed, yet vivified.
Is there a picture there for all of us?
Uh, yeah.
Jesus was in fact the first showing of the FIRST FLESH TEMPLE.
In Israel there were 3 showings of the external tabernacle. The tabernacle of wandering, the tabernacle of the RICH, and the last temple that was finally destroyed, yet which God saw had more glory than the temple of the RICH.
Haggai 2:9
The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.
If for example we view Jesus as the tabernacle of movement or wandering, the current church as the temple of the rich, we might even see that the latter temple will be coursed out in a similar vein.
s
Is there a picture there for all of us?
Uh, yeah.
Jesus was in fact the first showing of the FIRST FLESH TEMPLE.
In Israel there were 3 showings of the external tabernacle. The tabernacle of wandering, the tabernacle of the RICH, and the last temple that was finally destroyed, yet which God saw had more glory than the temple of the RICH.
Haggai 2:9
The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.
If for example we view Jesus as the tabernacle of movement or wandering, the current church as the temple of the rich, we might even see that the latter temple will be coursed out in a similar vein.
s
smaller
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- Oct 23, 2003
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Lines of similarity can also be drawn from the 3 showings of Babylon.
The first Babylon was a confusion of languages. The second, the power of captivity. The last or THIRD Babylon is mystery Babylon, but it is no mystery to those who have been led to see the matters and their courses.
s
The first Babylon was a confusion of languages. The second, the power of captivity. The last or THIRD Babylon is mystery Babylon, but it is no mystery to those who have been led to see the matters and their courses.
s
smaller
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Even on matters of calendars and time, as good as Osgiliath's chart is in the natural sense, the course of time is also layed out in 3 measures, as is the Kingdom itself, hidden in 3 measures.
In matters of time, Daniel delivers the course of the 3.
Time, Times and half or a dividing of time.
All of these matters are actually quite intimately overlayed, Temple, Babylon and TIMEs.
Trying to divide these matters on the calendar is interesting, but that is a natural understanding, and meant to be shown.
In matters of spiritual time however and how 'time' 'times' and 'the dividing time or halving of time,' are laid out, the natural calendar matters of understandings no longer mean much.
The Kingdom does not come by 'observations.'
s
In matters of time, Daniel delivers the course of the 3.
Time, Times and half or a dividing of time.
All of these matters are actually quite intimately overlayed, Temple, Babylon and TIMEs.
Trying to divide these matters on the calendar is interesting, but that is a natural understanding, and meant to be shown.
In matters of spiritual time however and how 'time' 'times' and 'the dividing time or halving of time,' are laid out, the natural calendar matters of understandings no longer mean much.
The Kingdom does not come by 'observations.'
s
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- Jul 13, 2012
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Your statement from post 295 -
Is Daniel 9:26 referring to a "spiritual" temple or a natural temple?
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
JLB