Futurism&TheTemple

[Hitch]

If the temple was destroyed and temple practices start up again then that would indicate a different temple. As Jesus said... as spoken of by the prophet Daniel... standing in the holy place!

When Dan writes there is no temple, when Jesus speaks there is a temple ,pretty simple eh ?

Not a single scripture here to back up what you say. You made some bold statements against what Jesus taught as well as Daniel and Paul. Now back it up!

You're not being truthful again J. You supplied the passage. Its just that the claims you made about it cant stand up, but Ii'll post it again anyway;

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Not a word about a construction program, not single word about resuming sacrifices, but in direct contrast to what you posted it does speak of ending sacrifices,

No scripture here either! More opinion! Ho Hummmmm! Yawn!!

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I thought something might show up with the different color,but it didnt help. Still no construction project and still and end to sacrifices , nothing about resuming sacrifices .

More opinion, no scripture. BLAH Blah Blah!

As it is with you so often J, you're half right, there is nothing in your chosen passage to help your case. It will help if you learn to embrace truth rather than insist what you need to fit your program is where it is not.

Hopefully the other half will at least have something in the way of scripture!

JLB

 

[JLB]

The question is: "Where is Heaven?"


First, what, or "Who" is "the earth" of verse Revelation 16:1?


Revelation 16:1" And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."


"Who" (not "what") is the "earth" that will receive the vials of wrath? We need not guess:


Jeremiah 22:29 "O earth, earth, earth, HEAR the word of the LORD."

"Who" is addressed to "hear the word of the LORD?"



The Earth is US. The Earth is "the flesh man" - the "carnal-minded man". "The earth" in scripture symbolizes (old) Adam and all who are in him. It is WE, who as "the earth", including the sea and the fountains of waters, are those upon whom all these last plagues are poured, before we can enter into the temple of God in heaven.

The "MAN OF SIN" is "US" - our "OLD MAN" that must be destroyed by "THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING."


Consider what is said here:

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

"In the days... (not in THE DAY, singular - but "THE DAYS") when he shall begin to sound (not sound.....but BEGIN to sound) the mystery of God should be finished...filling up the wrath of God", makes it abundantly clear that this is all speaking of an ongoing process (IN THE DAYS of the voice of the seventh angel). This "ongoing" process of judgment within "the earth" which is 'US', and it all adds up to the fact that this book cannot be unsealed to be read, heard or kept... till the seven plagues of the seven angels has been fulfilled within our lives - ALL OF US.

Jeremiah 22:29 "O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD."

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Revelation 22:8 And I John [and you and me, Lord willing] saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets [of "the earth" that "hears these things"], and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.


Paul gives us the answer to "where" Heaven is:

Colossians 1:27 "To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of THIS MYSTERY, which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."


"The time is at hand" that "the mystery of God...Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory...should be finished" in "the earth", within each of us.


That is why this prophecy is called "the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1). This book is all about the revelation of Jesus Christ within His elect, and that is why we are admonished in the third verse of the first chapter, and the 10th verse of the last chapter, to "keep the things written therein, for the time is at hand".


The "time is ALWAYS at hand!". Not only some time in the future, or to the specific generation Jesus and the Apostles personally addressed - the time is ALWAYS at hand.....at ALL times......for EVERYONE!


"Heaven," is not a geographical location with a physical city called 'New Jerusalem' as its capitol. Heaven, as revealed in scripture, is in the hearts and minds of God's elect saints. "Heaven" was created by God "in the beginning."

God has no beginning so 'heaven' has not always existed. God is not contained by the heavens. Nevertheless He tells us, for our benefit that...

"...The LORD he is God in heaven above..."(Deuteronomy 4:39, and), "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne..." (Isaiah 66:1).



Remember Jacob's Ladder?

Genesis 28:10 "And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
Genesis 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it."


And who does Christ tell us this ladder with angels represents?


John 1:51 "And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man."


Genesis 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
Genesis 28:17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.



And indeed Christ is the only way to the Father.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 10:7 "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."


John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also [and "be seated with Him in heaven" (Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him").


John 14:8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father [and is 'seated in heaven.']; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me [In heaven]? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father [in heaven], and the Father in me [in heaven]: or else believe me for the very works' sake."


"The natural man" is expecting a "physical heaven" with all of its physical amenities, which "the natural man" maintains are both physical.........yet at the same time, spiritual. As you can see from above, that is not the case. As Jesus said:

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

I didn't ask you where you thought heaven was, I asked you - Based on this scripture, does God dwell in a temple in heaven?

5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed. Revelation 15:5-8

Yes or No.

JLB

 

[JLB]

When Dan writes there is no temple, when Jesus speaks there is a temple ,pretty simple eh ? You're not being truthful again J. You supplied the passage. Its just that the claims you made about it cant stand up, but Ii'll post it again anyway;

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Not a word about a construction program, not single word about resuming sacrifices, but in direct contrast to what you posted it does speak of ending sacrifices,

No scripture here either! More opinion! Ho Hummmmm! Yawn!!
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.[/COLOR]
I thought something might show up with the different color,but it didnt help. Still no construction project and still and end to sacrifices , nothing about resuming sacrifices . As it is with you so often J, you're half right, there is nothing in your chosen passage to help your case. It will help if you learn to embrace truth rather than insist what you need to fit your program is where it is not.

So really what you are saying is, you don't have any scripture to prove anything you say. Just your opinion.

How refreshing!


JLB

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By JLB,

I didn't ask you where you thought heaven was, I asked you - Based on this scripture, does God dwell in a temple in heaven?

Well, I thought the Scripture I posted answered that question. I apologize for not being clear.

Knowing that Heaven is not a geographical location, but is a spiritual realm which exists in the hearts and minds of God's people, is a necessary step to understanding the Temple Paul spoke of (Paul only spoke of ONE Temple - "the Temple, which YE ARE.")

Hebrews 9:23 "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these [the blood of bulls and goats]; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."


It follows that if Christ has promised to always be with us, and he is also with God the Father on His throne, and God dwells in the heavens, then the heavens are in us where God is making His tabernacle (Temple) with men. God is not limited to a geographical location. He doesn't need a physical temple to live in. God does not dwell in temples made with hands:


Acts 7:48 "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet."

Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands."


So the answer to your question is; YES! God does indeed dwell in His temple, which is His people; His many-membered body. He is in us now through Christ, and will be when the physical realm is no longer needed.


Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead (deity) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth IN YOU?"

 

[JLB]

Well, I thought the Scripture I posted answered that question. I apologize for not being clear.

Knowing that Heaven is not a geographical location, but is a spiritual realm which exists in the hearts and minds of God's people, is a necessary step to understanding the Temple Paul spoke of (Paul only spoke of ONE Temple - "the Temple, which YE ARE.")

Hebrews 9:23 "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these [the blood of bulls and goats]; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."


It follows that if Christ has promised to always be with us, and he is also with God the Father on His throne, and God dwells in the heavens, then the heavens are in us where God is making His tabernacle (Temple) with men. God is not limited to a geographical location. He doesn't need a physical temple to live in. God does not dwell in temples made with hands:


Acts 7:48 "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet."

Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands."


So the answer to your question is; YES! God does indeed dwell in His temple, which is His people; His many-membered body. He is in us now through Christ, and will be when the physical realm is no longer needed.


Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead (deity) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth IN YOU?"

Please show me the scripture for this statement -

Knowing that Heaven is not a geographical location

Paul said -

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

Stephen says -

48 However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest? Acts 7:48-49


John says -

2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. Revelation 4:2-4

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. Revelation 11:19


Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle... Revelation 14:17


God dwells in born again believers!

God does not only dwell in born again believers!

God is omniscient!

God dwells in Heaven even the highest heaven, the third heaven!


edited for RUDENESS ,reba

JLB

 

[smaller]

JLB, you are deploying what is commonly known as a logical fallacy, defined as such:

"An appeal to probability, also known as an appeal to possibility, is a logical fallacy in which it is assumed that because something could happen it inevitably will happen."

And this happens continually in the arena of eschatology.

An example of this would be the 'scorpion's' in Revelation. Some see the 'scorpion' helicopter and they try to make the pieces of prophecy 'fit' their probability from the scriptures. And they will swear that is the 'only' possible answer.

It's also the fallacy of the excluded middle, meaning there are many ways to view all matters. You've deploy your 'limited construction choices' many times in this thread.

We do know from scriptures this much about 'temples' in general. That without the habitation of His Spirit, they are quite meaningless by anyone's measures.

We also know that any form of religion and 'temple or idol' combination makes the claim of 'valid meaning' outside of the region of any 'temple physical,' of it's own accord.

Gods Words have undoubtedly stated that He does not dwell in temples made by men.

Acts 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

The 'probability' that this will change is slim to none. But you are welcome to think otherwise and claim otherwise.

The New Testament is clear about 'temples.' The Spirit of God inhabits the hearts of those who call upon Him.

Is that the 'entirety' of God therein? No. It's a seed, a token of Promise.

IF His eternal seed is within, then the path to heaven is also 'internal' and 'unseen' by the physical/external/natural sight. It would NOT be seen or found by slicing open a physical heart or looking inside a physically constructed temple of any sort of imagination.

There are an abundance of most interesting sights and patterns to be found in temple understandings. Just depends on 'how' one is led to view same or how much they'd like NOT to see and insist only on some limited forms of constructs.

You can certainly claim that Daniel 9 means not only ONE temple reconstruction, but TWO. And you'd be VERY hard pressed to see any such TWO MORE physical TEMPLE reconstruction/destruction facts in Daniel 9.

The 'chances' of that fact to be extracted from Daniel 9 is about zero.

Make that less than zero. It's non-existing.

s

 

[Hitch]

When Dan writes there is no temple, when Jesus speaks there is a temple ,pretty simple eh ? You're not being truthful again J. You supplied the passage. Its just that the claims you made about it cant stand up, but Ii'll post it again anyway;

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Not a word about a construction program, not single word about resuming sacrifices, but in direct contrast to what you posted it does speak of ending sacrifices, So really what you are saying is, you don't have any scripture to prove anything you say. Just your opinion.

How refreshing!


JLB

Poor J

 

[JLB]

JLB, you are deploying what is commonly known as a logical fallacy, defined as such:

"An appeal to probability, also known as an appeal to possibility, is a logical fallacy in which it is assumed that because something could happen it inevitably will happen."

And this happens continually in the arena of eschatology.

An example of this would be the 'scorpion's' in Revelation. Some see the 'scorpion' helicopter and they try to make the pieces of prophecy 'fit' their probability from the scriptures. And they will swear that is the 'only' possible answer.

Is that the 'entirety' of God therein? No. It's a seed, a token of Promise.



There are an abundance of most interesting sights and patterns to be found in temple understandings. Just depends on 'how' one is led to view same or how much they'd like NOT to see and insist only on some limited forms of constructs.


s

It's also the fallacy of the excluded middle, meaning there are many ways to view all matters. You've deploy your 'limited construction choices' many times in this thread.

In interpreting scripture there is a 3 fold fullness to each understanding.

1. The direct Interpretation - The literal meaning of a scripture.
2. The prophetic implication - The future fulfillment of an Old Testament type.
3. The personal application - Rhema Word from scripture to an individual from God.

You seem to think anywhere the reference to a temple is in scripture can only be referring to the temple of a born again believer, yet you accuse me of "limited construction choices"!

We do know from scriptures this much about 'temples' in general. That without the habitation of His Spirit, they are quite meaningless by anyone's measures.

I totally agre with you!

Gods Words have undoubtedly stated that He does not dwell in temples made by men.

Acts 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

The 'probability' that this will change is slim to none. But you are welcome to think otherwise and claim otherwise.

I agree with you. I do feel welcome to think otherwise!

The New Testament is clear about 'temples.' The Spirit of God inhabits the hearts of those who call upon Him.

I totally agree!

IF His eternal seed is within, then the path to heaven is also 'internal' and 'unseen' by the physical/external/natural sight. It would NOT be seen or found by slicing open a physical heart or looking inside a physically constructed temple of any sort of imagination.

I couldn't agree more!

You can certainly claim that Daniel 9 means not only ONE temple reconstruction, but TWO. And you'd be VERY hard pressed to see any such TWO MORE physical TEMPLE reconstruction/destruction facts in Daniel 9.

The 'chances' of that fact to be extracted from Daniel 9 is about zero.

Make that less than zero. It's non-existing.

Is Daniel 9:27 speaking of a physical Temple or a spiritual temple?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Poor J

It's refreshing to see that you have no valid rebuttal to the clear scriptural response to your own thread.

JLB

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by JLB,

You seem to think anywhere the reference to a temple is in scripture can only be referring to the temple of a born again believer, yet you accuse me of "limited construction choices"!

2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN OF SIN is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."


Christians do not know "who" the Temple of God is. The Temple is no longer the Jewish Temple made out of bricks and stone. That "AGE" (which was a copy and a shadow) is over. Paul tells us what the Temple is since the descending of the Parakletos:


1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is HOLY, which TEMPLE YOU ARE."

1 Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is in you?"

2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU ARE THE TEMPLE of the living God; as God has said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, and walk in them"

1 Corinthians 3:9 "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, YOU ARE GOD'S BUILDING."


Peter says the same:

1 Peter 2:4 "You are coming to Christ, who is the LIVING CORNERSTONE of God's temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor.
1 Peter 2:5 And YOU ARE LIVING STONES that God is building into his SPIRITUAL TEMPLE."


WE ARE THE TEMPLE, A LIVING SPIRITUAL TEMPLE. The "physical temple" made of bricks and stone is no longer relevant. The TEMPLE is now a SPIRITUAL TEMPLE, and each of us in Christ are LIVING STONES that make up the Temple of God.


Going back to the verses from 2 Thessalonians above:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED, the son of perdition,
2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."


If WE ARE THE TEMPLE, then WHO IS IT that SITS AS GOD, IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD (that's us), showing HIMSELF to be GOD?

The MAN of sin "exalts HIMSELF" above all ....... so that he, AS GOD, sits IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD." Every reference that Paul made to the "temple of God" reveals that he NEVER applied this term to the Jewish temple! When the Bible speaks of the "literal temple," the Greek word "hieron" is used. On the other hand, the word that Paul used for temple is the Greek word "NAOS" which refers not to the literal temple, but to the Holy Place. NAOS is THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD. And the dwelling place of God is now HIS MANY MEMBERED BODY.


Paul said:

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is in you?
2 Corinthians 6:16: "For YOU are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell IN THEM, and walk in them"


So if WE ARE THE TEMPLE, as the Bible states, then who is the "man of sin" sitting in the "TEMPLE of God" showing himself that HE IS GOD?


WE ARE THAT MAN OF SIN! The MAN OF SIN is THE SELF usurping and exalting HIMSELF AS GOD in the Temple of God, showing HIMSELF that he is God!!!


The "MAN OF SIN" (the SELF) takes the seat of God in the temple of God (which YOU ARE) and usurps the leading of the Holy Spirit. He thinks he's a servant of God, but in reality, he's serving the false god of SELF as he resists the Holy Spirit and "opposes and exalts HIMSELF above all that is called God, so that HE AS GOD sits in the temple of God, showing HIMSELF that HE is God."


Revelation 13:18: "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN, and his number is 666."


It is the number of a MAN, and the number that represents MAN in the Scriptures is the number 6.

• Man was created on the 6th day
• 6 days for MAN to labour
• MAN could sow the land 6 years, but the seventh belonged to the Lord
  
  
• Goliath; who defied the Lord's army, was 6 cubits tall. His spearhead weighed 600 shekels of iron.
• Nebuchadnezzar's great image, set up in the plain of Dura, was 60 by 6 cubits.

The dimensions of Nebuchadnezzar's great image was 10 times the height of Goliath; and with the passage of time, the dimensions "increase" another ten times when we get to Revelation 13:18. This is because:

2 Timothy 3:13 "But evil MEN and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."



The "god" we think (all of us at some point in our lives) we are praising and worshiping is not actually God at all. Our god is THE IMAGE OF SELF! Man creates God in his OWN IMAGE! The IMAGE OF THE BEAST. THE BEAST is MAN!


The beast is you, and the beast is me!

Ecclesiastes 3:18 "I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves ARE BEASTS."

Revelation 13:18: "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count the number of THE BEAST: for it is the number of a MAN."



This is true with EVERYONE, (i.e. - THE WHOLE WORLD is deceived {Revelation 12:9} - that includes YOU AND ME) – until Christ drives all of that out of us and destroys the beast within..... the flesh, Old Adam, the Old MAN, (carnal-minded, natural man) with "a sharp sword which proceeds out of His MOUTH." (Revelation 19:15, 21)

Revelation 19:21 "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the MOUTH of Him who sat on the horse, and all the fowls were filled with THEIR FLESH."


Here is what that "sword" is:

Hebrews 4:12 "For the WORD OF GOD is living and powerful, and sharper than any TWO-EDGED SWORD."


John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS that I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT..."

 

[smaller]

Is Daniel 9:27 speaking of a physical Temple or a spiritual temple?

JLB

Doesn't matter to the point of observation.

There are certainly NOT TWO temples presented therein. And that's the case you are trying to make.

While I find interest in timeline for the first temple destruction OR the killing of Jesus Christ, Gods FLESH Temple, from the point of the destruction of either the temple of God is the body of believers with His Spirit within our hearts as shown and stated clearly from the scriptures.

You've staked your sight on yet ANOTHER brick and mortar temple when such a claim is not even there to see.

The temple brick and mortar was rebuilt after Babylonian captivity was over, then destroyed and offerings ceased.

Jesus revealed where the man of sin sits. It is a spiritual matter and that 'man' was shown to sit in the temple of our sinning bodies.

Paul delineates this matter as well, quite clearly:

2 Thess. 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan

Look to your own body my friend. The 'man' of sin is already IN the temple. We all have sin and sin is in fact OF THE DEVIL.

Not difficult to come to grips with if you are honest.

And HERE, right HERE is the promised destruction of that DESTROYER:

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

You're looking to some other land and some other temple.

It's an internal matter JLB. You will see exactly nothing on the outside of the cup. Nothing.

The Brightness of His Coming is GOD who is LOVE IN OUR HEARTS. That is the 'method' of DESTRUCTION.

A CARNAL mind/heart is not honest before God and is NOT allowed to see these matters.

They are in fact blinded by the 'god of this world.' And such will be 'led' down dead end avenues and dead end sights.

Os may look to the 'old man' but the reality of the 'old man' is that it is us, BLINDED by that other working entity IN the temple.

When Paul was turned to God in Christ he was in fact TURNED from the power of Satan unto GOD in Christ by Christ Himself.

Yet there remains a destruction to come upon that 'man of sin' that is promised in the Gospel.

s

 

[JLB]

Doesn't matter to the point of observation.

There are certainly NOT TWO temples presented therein. And that's the case you are trying to make.

While I find interest in timeline for the first temple destruction OR the killing of Jesus Christ, Gods FLESH Temple, from the point of the destruction of either the temple of God is the body of believers with His Spirit within our hearts as shown and stated clearly from the scriptures.

You've staked your sight on yet ANOTHER brick and mortar temple when such a claim is not even there to see.

The temple brick and mortar was rebuilt after Babylonian captivity was over, then destroyed and offerings ceased.

Jesus revealed where the man of sin sits. It is a spiritual matter and that 'man' was shown to sit in the temple of our sinning bodies.

Paul delineates this matter as well, quite clearly:

2 Thess. 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan

Look to your own body my friend. The 'man' of sin is already IN the temple. We all have sin and sin is in fact OF THE DEVIL.

Not difficult to come to grips with if you are honest.

And HERE, right HERE is the promised destruction of that DESTROYER:

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

You're looking to some other land and some other temple.

It's an internal matter JLB. You will see exactly nothing on the outside of the cup. Nothing.

The Brightness of His Coming is GOD who is LOVE IN OUR HEARTS. That is the 'method' of DESTRUCTION.

A CARNAL mind/heart is not honest before God and is NOT allowed to see these matters.

They are in fact blinded by the 'god of this world.' And such will be 'led' down dead end avenues and dead end sights.

Os may look to the 'old man' but the reality of the 'old man' is that it is us, BLINDED by that other working entity IN the temple.

When Paul was turned to God in Christ he was in fact TURNED from the power of Satan unto GOD in Christ by Christ Himself.

Yet there remains a destruction to come upon that 'man of sin' that is promised in the Gospel.

s

How can a "man" occupy another person's body?

temple of God is the body of believers with His Spirit within our hearts as shown and stated clearly from the scriptures.

How can any being except God, occupy "the body of believers". Only God is omnipresent!



Not to difficult to come to grips with this simple truth if your honest!


Brother, you are way off in your understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2.
How anyone could possibly say the man of sin "sits" [occupies] the body of believers [temple], which is ONLY reserved for the Holy Spirit.

I guess your saying the "man of sin" binds the Holy Spirit and cast's Him out and sits as God in the body of believers?

That's what you are saying and trying to convince us of!

edited

JLB

 

[JLB]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."

1 Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is in you?"

Go ahead and explain to us how a man,"the man of sin", occupies the place of God in all the believers, ["sits as God"].

Also explain to us how this "man of sin" is revealed to all.

First, he occupies the place of God in all the body of believers.

Then he is revealed, meaning he can be seen and known!

Thats a very unique perspective, I can't wait to hear your explanation! :


JLB

 

[Pastor Dave]

the third temple did come. in the form of flesh that tabernacled the HOLY God who created it all.

not all futurists are sign seekers. though i can see why you say that.

Yes. Or another view is that the body of Christ is a 3rd temple. I don't say "THE" 3rd temple, because I don't follow the belief that we're waiting on another temple. I'm not a Futurist. And in my opinion, when you follow Futurism thru with regard to a "coming temple", it just doesn't make any sense. Especially not when you consider that many of them believe that Jesus will sit on a throne in this coming temple ruling the Earth and they believe that during this time, the Mosaic Law is reestablished and that Jews will be able to get to Heaven thru the Mosaic Law. This whole scenario, to me, no offense to anyone, is simply ridiculous. I mean, think it thru, ya know?

For example, Jesus, the one time sacrifice for all, is sitting on His throne in this temple ruling, with the Mosaic Law reestablished.

The problem with this is plethora!

1) The purpose of the temple is animal sacrifices for sins. That is what it is built for.

2) The reestablishment of the Mosaic Law means the reestatement of animal sacrifices for sins.

3) Here we have Jesus, the one time sacrifice for all, somehow not having a problem with Jews sacrificing animals for their sins, which in reality, would be the same thing as spitting in His face (spitting in the face of HIs sacrifice)! Their animal sacrifices would be an abomination before God, since the time of the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ, which means that it would be considered the same to Jesus.

4) Here we have the Jews who, for some reason, have no problem with Jesus sitting on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies, which is obviously where God would sit of course and this is an ignored problem by the Futurists, because they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, which means that to them, He would be committing an abomination by even entering the Holy of Holies, let alone setting up camp in it! They would be dragging Him out into the street and stoning Him, not worshipping Him!

5) If the Jews did actually believe that Jesus was the Messiah, meaning as the church believes in Him and not just as some "war lord", then they would know that the temple is past history, because He is the one time sacrifice! Of course, I probably should note here that even most "Christians" today, since most are Futurists, look at Jesus as some war lord. After all, what is it that they're waiting on Him for? To go out and fight a war, right?

Anyway, there are more problems with this "future temple" view. Problems that Futurists just do not see and are not even aware of, because they're studying "accepted doctrine", not the Bible. And the idea that the doctrine may not be Biblical does not even occur to them.

I'm not trying to attack anybody. It's just that when you think this temple stuff through, it obviously just doesn't make any sense. And so now there's a choice to make. Stick with the Scriptures, or "the doctrine".

 

[JLB]

Yes. Or another view is that the body of Christ is a 3rd temple. I don't say "THE" 3rd temple, because I don't follow the belief that we're waiting on another temple. I'm not a Futurist. And in my opinion, when you follow Futurism thru with regard to a "coming temple", it just doesn't make any sense. Especially not when you consider that many of them believe that Jesus will sit on a throne in this coming temple ruling the Earth and they believe that during this time, the Mosaic Law is reestablished and that Jews will be able to get to Heaven thru the Mosaic Law. This whole scenario, to me, no offense to anyone, is simply ridiculous. I mean, think it thru, ya know?

For example, Jesus, the one time sacrifice for all, is sitting on His throne in this temple ruling, with the Mosaic Law reestablished.

The problem with this is plethora!

1) The purpose of the temple is animal sacrifices for sins. That is what it is built for.

2) The reestablishment of the Mosaic Law means the reestatement of animal sacrifices for sins.

3) Here we have Jesus, the one time sacrifice for all, somehow not having a problem with Jews sacrificing animals for their sins, which in reality, would be the same thing as spitting in His face (spitting in the face of HIs sacrifice)! Their animal sacrifices would be an abomination before God, since the time of the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ, which means that it would be considered the same to Jesus.

4) Here we have the Jews who, for some reason, have no problem with Jesus sitting on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies, which is obviously where God would sit of course and this is an ignored problem by the Futurists, because they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, which means that to them, He would be committing an abomination by even entering the Holy of Holies, let alone setting up camp in it! They would be dragging Him out into the street and stoning Him, not worshipping Him!

5) If the Jews did actually believe that Jesus was the Messiah, meaning as the church believes in Him and not just as some "war lord", then they would know that the temple is past history, because He is the one time sacrifice! Of course, I probably should note here that even most "Christians" today, since most are Futurists, look at Jesus as some war lord. After all, what is it that they're waiting on Him for? To go out and fight a war, right?

Anyway, there are more problems with this "future temple" view. Problems that Futurists just do not see and are not even aware of, because they're studying "accepted doctrine", not the Bible. And the idea that the doctrine may not be Biblical does not even occur to them.

I'm not trying to attack anybody. It's just that when you think this temple stuff through, it obviously just doesn't make any sense. And so now there's a choice to make. Stick with the Scriptures, or "the doctrine".

Here we have the Jews who, for some reason, have no problem with Jesus sitting on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies,

Where is that scripture, that's interesting.


JLB

 

[Pastor Dave]

Where is that scripture, that's interesting.


JLB

It doesn't exist. That's my point. The Futurists just claim that's "what the Bible says" and they use a number of verses to supposedly put this so called, "Biblical doctrine" together. But the Bible doesn't actually say any of it.

 

[JLB]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD."

1 Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who is in you?"

Go ahead and explain to us how a man,"the man of sin", occupies the place of God in all the believers, ["sits as God"].

Also explain to us how this "man of sin" is revealed to all.

First, he occupies the place of God in all the body of believers.

Then he is revealed, meaning he can be seen and known!

Thats a very unique perspective, I can't wait to hear your explanation! :

JLB

 

[Pastor Dave]

Go ahead and explain to us how a man,"the man of sin", occupies the place of God in all the believers, ["sits as God"].

Also explain to us how this "man of sin" is revealed to all.

First, he occupies the place of God in all the body of believers.

Then he is revealed, meaning he can be seen and known!

Thats a very unique perspective, I can't wait to hear your explanation! :

JLB

So in response to my post proving that the doctrine that has Jesus sitting in a rebuilt temple ruling the Earth is ridiculous on its face, he posts passages that he thinks prove that an evil guy sits in this same temple and fools people into thinking He is God! Yea, that proves that I was wrong about what I said about the doctrine they have about Jesus sitting in this temple ruling! Of course it does!

Or is he now claiming that Jesus is this "man of sin"? After all, if he claims to be responding to what I said (and that is the obviously implication), then that's what his comment would mean. He obviously, as is typical for Futurists, did not think his response thru before posting it!

Futurists crack me up though. They are so immersed in the brainwashing that they call a doctrine, that they don't even think about what say. They just spit out what they were trained to like robot lemmings , no matter how nonsensical it is and even if it has nothing to do with what was said. Truly sad!

And I call it brainwashing when this is the type of thing that's offered as a serious response!

And it is also obvious that they are so immersed into their doctrine, that they actually think that quoting passages is the same thing as the verses saying whatever's in their head, that they think it means.

When you believe that the interpretation that you were taught about passages (especially those dealing with how prophetic passages would be fulfilled), is what the passages actually say (that the passages are actually worded that way), so that what you think it says doesn't even need to be stated to anyone, then that is brainwashing, period!

Of course, since I know the Futurist doctrines well, I know where he was going. But of course, the arrogance that follows, comes when you mention their approach to them and they respond by telling you that "You just don't understand the Bible!".

Yea, right, because of course, anyone who understands the Bible would believe exactly what they do, right?!

Oh yes! Of course, anyone who understands the Bible would know that in order to "prove" that Jesus will rule the Earth from a rebuilt temple, one must quote passages that talk about an evil dude ruling as God from a temple! Only the truly ignorant of the Scriptures wouldn't know that, right guys?

 

[JLB]

Go ahead and explain to us how a man,"the man of sin", occupies the place of God in all the believers, ["sits as God"].

Also explain to us how this "man of sin" is revealed to all.

First, he occupies the place of God in all the body of believers.

Then he is revealed, meaning he can be seen and known!

Thats a very unique perspective, I can't wait to hear your explanation! :

So in response to my post proving that the doctrine that has Jesus sitting in a rebuilt temple ruling the Earth is ridiculous on its face, he posts passages that he thinks prove that an evil guy sits in this same temple and fools people into thinking He is God! Yea, that proves that I was wrong about what I said about the doctrine they have about Jesus sitting in this temple ruling! Of course it does!

Well, I don't see your explanation about how a man can occupy the place of God in all the body of believers in this quote! Lets examine the next one!

Or is he now claiming that Jesus is this "man of sin"? After all, if he claims to be responding to what I said (and that is the obviously implication), then that's what his comment would mean. He obviously, as is typical for Futurists, did not think his response thru before posting it!

No explanation here either.

Futurists crack me up though. They are so immersed in the brainwashing that they call a doctrine, that they don't even think about what say. They just spit out what they were trained to like robot lemmings , no matter how nonsensical it is and even if it has nothing to do with what was said. Truly sad!

See above!

And I call it brainwashing when this is the type of thing that's offered as a serious response!

And it is also obvious that they are so immersed into their doctrine, that they actually think that quoting passages is the same thing as the verses saying whatever's in their head, that they think it means.

See above!

When you believe that the interpretation that you were taught about passages (especially those dealing with how prophetic passages would be fulfilled), is what the passages actually say (that the passages are actually worded that way), so that what you think it says doesn't even need to be stated to anyone, then that is brainwashing, period!

See above!

Of course, since I know the Futurist doctrines well, I know where he was going. But of course, the arrogance that follows, comes when you mention their approach to them and they respond by telling you that "You just don't understand the Bible!".

Yea, right, because of course, anyone who understands the Bible would believe exactly what they do, right?!

Still no explanation as to how a flesh and blood man can occupy the place of God in all the body of believers.

Oh yes! Of course, anyone who understands the Bible would know that in order to "prove" that Jesus will rule the Earth from a rebuilt temple, one must quote passages that talk about an evil dude ruling as God from a temple! Only the truly ignorant of the Scriptures wouldn't know that, right guys?

Well, you have not been able to explain how a man can occupy the place of God in believers!

You have, however tried to side step the question by making some remarks...

But, still no explanation!

Oh well, I guess when you get around to it, you will explain yourself! totopic

Good to have you back Pastor.


JLB

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by JLB,

Go ahead and explain to us how a man,"the man of sin", occupies the place of God in all the believers, ["sits as God"].

Also explain to us how this "man of sin" is revealed to all.

First, he occupies the place of God in all the body of believers.

Then he is revealed, meaning he can be seen and known!

Paul does not say of the man of sin, or the man of lawlessness, that he is BORN - but that he is REVEALED. It does not say that he suddenly emerges upon the world scene, nor that he seizes political power, nor that he marshals vast armies - but simply that he is REVEALED!

The whole world has been waiting for the man of sin to be revealed, and now by the grace of the Holy Spirit HE IS BEING REVEALED as the Lord makes known to His apprehended ones the awful depth of our own carnal minds, self-will, and inherent sin faithfully and relentlessly purging, refining, crushing, and stripping us of all that pertains to the self-ego of Adam's nature.

The "MAN OF SIN" is REVEALED to each of us PERSONALLY! He is not "publicly revealed" to the world as an individual King or world ruler, he is revealed WITHIN US, each one of us.


The destruction of the man of sin comes AT THE TIME HE IS REVEALED:


2 Thessalonians 2:8 "And THEN shall that Wicked be REVEALED, whom the Lord shall CONSUME with the spirit of His MOUTH, and shall DESTROY with the brightness of His coming."

Paul says: "The Lord shall consume with The Spirit of His MOUTH."



Again, as I mentioned in my last post;

Revelation 19:21 "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the MOUTH of Him who sat on the horse, and all the fowls were filled with THEIR FLESH."


Here is what that "sword" is:

Hebrews 4:12 "For the WORD OF GOD is living and powerful, and sharper than any TWO-EDGED SWORD."


John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS that I SPEAK to you; THEY ARE SPIRIT, they are LIFE"




This man of sin within will do everything in his power to conceal his identity, for his discovery is his undoing! He is hidden, not to God and Christ, but to the man who is NOT walking in the SPIRIT. As our lives become exposed to the life and light of Christ the MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED, uncovered, exposed - then to be dealt with, destroyed, consumed by the bright-burning of the arising of the Day Star within our hearts.

If the cunning, craftiness, subtleness, deceitfulness, treachery, and wickedness of OUR OWN carnal mind is being uncovered, revealed, exposed by the Spirit's dealings, then know, that THE HOUR OF HIS DESTRUCTION IS AT HAND! The order is: REVEALED! ... DESTROYED! ... GLORY!