I’m saved – I can do anything I want

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Heb 12?

Hebrews 12

Excellent scripture, filled with stern warning, and directed to...Christians.

While I'd admit that Heb.12 is a great chapter with great truths and applications but you are on shakey ground trying to reconcile Heb. 12 with Paul's church age epistles.

If you read real closely vs. 23 and run the references they will lead you to Exodus and Israel (Exo. 4:22). When the future tribulation starts the scattered Jews (James 1:1) will probably find Hebrews an interesting book - there they will learn that Jesus was the messiah and that it is thorugh him where their salvation willl come from.

I know this may not agree with you but that's how it fits.

One way of reconciling the seeming contradictions is to divide the application- such that certain scriptures are to certain people at certain times.

Another manner in which to reconcile these seeming contradictions is to look for the whole and unified counsel of scripture. We are all aware of seemingly contradictory truths in life AND in scripture. I say seeming contradictions because in reality, they are not contradictory, but complimentary. By way of example, a man is counseled that he will gain in the next life much by leaving home, family, and lands, yet is also commanded to care for the financial, emotional, and spiritual needs of his family. We are told that there is in Christ neither male nor female, and that we are "sons" of God-yet women are to remain silent in Church.

To some, these appear to be contradictions, or situational truths. I say they are equally true at all times, for we have many facets in our human experience, just as I am a son and a father...I never cease being both simultaneously.
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Tradition holds that the epistle to the Hebrews was written by Paul- so it would be absolutely necessary to "reconcile Heb. 12 with Paul's church age epistles." It would be wrong to assume that Paul, the one who spoke of the "tearing down of the middle wall of separation, creating in His body one new man," would be writing one set of instructions and admonitions to one group, and yet a different set to another.

But if he did, given Paul's opposition to Judaizing, one would assume that Paul would never hammer away at behavior among those who already saw the necessity of obedience. No, if anything, obedience would need to be preached to the Gentile, and liberty to the Jew.

I see this principle in scripture, that God preaches to the weakness in a man- "this thing you are lacking." See Rev 2 and 3 for verification of this principle.

 

[Heidi]

Orthodox, you would fare better to have the faith of a child as Jesus tells us, instead of analyzing scripture to the point of distortions. And no, Jesus never told us that children get their faith through adult analyzing as you once claimed. If Jesus meant this, then he never would have told us to have the faith of a child, but instead he would have told us to have the faith of an anlaytical adult.

 

[AwedbyGod]

You must have been a very different child than I was. What is it with modern Evangelicals and the proclivity to want to shut their brains off? If that helps you get through life, then feel free. Just don't expect the rest of us to do likewise.

Orthodox, you would fare better to have the faith of a child as Jesus tells us, instead of analyzing scripture to the point of distortions. And no, Jesus never told us that children get their faith through adult analyzing as you once claimed. If Jesus meant this, then he never would have told us to have the faith of a child, but instead he would have told us to have the faith of an anlaytical adult.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

You must have been a very different child than I was. What is it with modern Evangelicals and the proclivity to want to shut their brains off? If that helps you get through life, then feel free. Just don't expect the rest of us to do likewise.

Orthodox, you would fare better to have the faith of a child as Jesus tells us, instead of analyzing scripture to the point of distortions. And no, Jesus never told us that children get their faith through adult analyzing as you once claimed. If Jesus meant this, then he never would have told us to have the faith of a child, but instead he would have told us to have the faith of an anlaytical adult.

Actually, Heidi proclaims a truth, but it is only one part of the truth. To receive grace, one must approach God simply and unadorned, with open heart and mind like a child.

But she errs in setting this against study of scripture, defense of good doctrine, and consideration of mystery: each of which scripture commands (study to show yourself approved, come let us reason together, seek wisdom above all things, the Bereans, etc.)

This is just what I was referring to: two seeming contradictions; yet not contradictory, but true at once.

Don't worry, Heidi, I am but a child at His feet. And yet I am a man, a father and teacher to my children, and a priest in my home.
As a disciple, I am commanded to grow and learn, even the mysteries and oracles of Giod:the epistle to the Hebrews says that we should move on beyond elementary things.

And so we shall, God willing.
James

 

[cuiq]

AVBunyan wrote

2. What justifies?
Your faith or mine couldn't saved a dead horse. A man is not justified before God by his faith. God is very clear in this matter - please read carefully:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
It is Christ's faith that justifies not ours. Every new bible on the market changes the "of" to "in" - the difference you say? Glad you asked. The difference is...by faith "in" means your faith justifies....the faith "of" means it is Christ's faith which justifes. You tell me which faith you'd rather have. It was Christ who did the work not us. The "in" came from Origen (the origen of all new verions - from the 3rd century) who believed salvation was by works

So many miss this important fact. I'm very glad you pointed this out. There are so many verses that seem to be so clear on how Gods salvation works but alas I am constantly reminded why that is, by Gods words in these verses.

Romans 1:28

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.


Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

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Also do you think that Ezekiel 37:1-14 show that salvation is completely done by God?


Peace In Christ

 

[farley]

AV,

Yes, witnessing to the predestined, exactly my point.

I am stunned to see you take such a position. I am also amazed that others here on this forum have glossed right over this issue and made nary a peep...wow!

For you to claim to believe in predestination, and then also claim to be regenerated from a lost sinner into a faithful child of God just boggles my mind.

These are opposing viewpoints...yet, you are claiming them BOTH!!!

I am sorry to have to say this, but...

You are lost!

LOST, LOST, LOST...TOTALLY LOST!!!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Heidi]

You must have been a very different child than I was. What is it with modern Evangelicals and the proclivity to want to shut their brains off? If that helps you get through life, then feel free. Just don't expect the rest of us to do likewise.

Orthodox, you would fare better to have the faith of a child as Jesus tells us, instead of analyzing scripture to the point of distortions. And no, Jesus never told us that children get their faith through adult analyzing as you once claimed. If Jesus meant this, then he never would have told us to have the faith of a child, but instead he would have told us to have the faith of an anlaytical adult.

Actually, Heidi proclaims a truth, but it is only one part of the truth. To receive grace, one must approach God simply and unadorned, with open heart and mind like a child.

But she errs in setting this against study of scripture, defense of good doctrine, and consideration of mystery: each of which scripture commands (study to show yourself approved, come let us reason together, seek wisdom above all things, the Bereans, etc.)

This is just what I was referring to: two seeming contradictions; yet not contradictory, but true at once.

Don't worry, Heidi, I am but a child at His feet. And yet I am a man, a father and teacher to my children, and a priest in my home.
As a disciple, I am commanded to grow and learn, even the mysteries and oracles of Giod:the epistle to the Hebrews says that we should move on beyond elementary things.

And so we shall, God willing.
James

Sorry, Orthodox, but because you don't believe the bible as written, you add your own words to it and subtract those you don't like. The 2nd commandment tells us not to make for ourselves any graven images and whorship them yet you contradict that. The bible is also very clear that Jesus had brothers yet you try to find a way around that also. You justify idol-worshipping yet don't call it idol-worshipping. Which is easier? To say;"We don't worship people" or; to throw out statues of Mary, stop praying to people and focus on Christ alone? When your words and actions do not agree, they are not credible.

Spiritual maturity has nothing to do with twisting the bible. It is the exact opposite. It is an increase in faith, not arguing with the bible. ;-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

You must have been a very different child than I was. What is it with modern Evangelicals and the proclivity to want to shut their brains off? If that helps you get through life, then feel free. Just don't expect the rest of us to do likewise.

Orthodox, you would fare better to have the faith of a child as Jesus tells us, instead of analyzing scripture to the point of distortions. And no, Jesus never told us that children get their faith through adult analyzing as you once claimed. If Jesus meant this, then he never would have told us to have the faith of a child, but instead he would have told us to have the faith of an anlaytical adult.

Actually, Heidi proclaims a truth, but it is only one part of the truth. To receive grace, one must approach God simply and unadorned, with open heart and mind like a child.

But she errs in setting this against study of scripture, defense of good doctrine, and consideration of mystery: each of which scripture commands (study to show yourself approved, come let us reason together, seek wisdom above all things, the Bereans, etc.)

This is just what I was referring to: two seeming contradictions; yet not contradictory, but true at once.

Don't worry, Heidi, I am but a child at His feet. And yet I am a man, a father and teacher to my children, and a priest in my home.
As a disciple, I am commanded to grow and learn, even the mysteries and oracles of Giod:the epistle to the Hebrews says that we should move on beyond elementary things.

And so we shall, God willing.
James

Sorry, Orthodox, but because you don't believe the bible as written,

Stop there. Yes, you are sorry, I agree with that. But contrary to your perspective from your lofty seat atop the Judgement Seat of Christ, one will find me reading and affirming the whole counsel of scripture, not the Bible For Dummies that you're reading from. Sorry to be so rude and blunt, but this is a highly accurate picture.

you add your own words to it and subtract those you don't like.

Post proof right here- any example
Yeah, right, you'll ignore this challenge like every other one you have been cornered on.

The 2nd commandment tells us not to make for ourselves any graven images and whorship them yet you contradict that. The bible is also very clear that Jesus had brothers yet you try to find a way around that also. You justify idol-worshipping yet don't call it idol-worshipping. Which is easier? To say;"We don't worship people" or; to throw out statues of Mary, stop praying to people and focus on Christ alone? When your words and actions do not agree, they are not credible.

Spiritual maturity has nothing to do with twisting the bible. It is the exact opposite. It is an increase in faith, not arguing with the bible. ;-)

Then why do you argue with the bible, pumpkin? Do you plan on remaining a child?
I acknowledge the presence in the bible of commands both to approach the Lord with childlike faith, and ones that encourage us to seek the deeper issues of faith. You deny these things, then press it to me as if I indulge in your lazy and circuitous doctrine- that is to say, as if I ignore whole portions of scripture, as you do.

In your overtly hypocritical manner, you drag the second commandment into this topic, which has nothing to do with anything- yet you rationalize skipping the Sabbath (4th commandment).

You've been arguing with Catholics and Orthodox for months, perhaps years, yet you've not even taken the time to understand the perspectives and practice of either. That's just careless and lazy.

Orthodox Christians do not use statues. Please clip cluepons.

And now, back to the topic which was most recently Hebrews 12, btw.

 

[Heidi]

And what scripture have I argued with? :o If you cannot show me any, then your attack is completely unwarranted. I, however, have shown you you which parts you argue with. But is doesn't seem to matter to you that you disagree with scripture or you wouldn't do it. Jesus and Paul tell us how to pray. And there isn't one prayer in the bible that is addressed to a person. Yet you justify doing that. You disagree with the 2nd commandment and justify praying to and bowing down to statues. We have a picture of the pope doing just that. You say that Mary was virgin all her life when the bible clearly said Jesus had brothers. Bu again, what scripture have I argued with? :o

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The point of the matter is this. Before we were regenerated we had no desire for the things of God. We had no desire to do the right things.

After regeneration we are a whole new creation with a whole new desire for the things of God that God put there himself. God is quite capable at finishing what he started in us, it says so in the bible. If we wander, he gently guides us back to where we should be.

There are warnings in the bible about falling away when one doesn't 'do' this or that...then there are scriptures that point that one cannot fall away because they are kept by God. Hasn't anyone wondered about this contradiction? I know I have. Back when I was always fearful of 'losing' my salvation I used to wonder about how God can keep us from falling...and all the while warn us about not falling. It didn't make sense. "Hey I thought you said that I was your sheep and that you don't lose sheep Lord - what's the go?".

Then one day I realised what the warnings were for. You see, sometimes we don't walk in the spirit like we should. While we are walking in the spirit, we don't desire to do 'wrong' and to sin...so it's a none issue. But when we wander (which we can tend to do) then we aren't exactly walking in the spirit...the warnings are there to warn us back to the Holy Spirit. The warnings IS HOW WE ARE KEPT. Like I warn my children about going on a busy road. "You go on the road..you could get killed".

A good parent would guide and warn their child of a busy road and yet there is still a chance that child would not heed the warning and be killed. A perfect parent - such as God - is gauranteed to keep us off the busy road, he will not allow his sheep to be hit by a dump truck! He will do ANYTHING to prevent this from happening because we belong to him. "Guide your child in the way in which he should go and he will NOT DEPART FROM IT". God is our perfect parent! He stands by that scripture too - or don't you believe it?

Just because one believes in OSAS doesn't mean we say 'Great now we can commit all the sin we want' Doesn't anyone grasp the concept that our new nature does not desire to commit all the sin we want? Our new nature desires the things of God.

Not sinning and keeping the commandments is a non issue for me, because these things are built into my new nature anyway. The only time i have to think about these things is when the Holy Spirit warns me and brings me to repentence...then the 'sin' is forgotten and the slate wiped cleaned and I move on, with Jesus holding my hand the whole way.

 

[lovely]

Lets lovingly edify one another, and remain on topic as much as possible. If we focus on Christ, and the Word of God, we will not have personal disputes. Just a reminder everyone. The Lord bless you all.

 

[von]

I know many OSAS people and that is exactly what they use to do whatever they want. I also know OSAS who truly serve the Lord.
I don't believe that if I make a mistake I am going directly to Hell. The Holy Spirit draws me back to repentence also, but if your sins are aready forgiven then why now do you speak of repentance? You are double talking. OSAS say they don't need to repent because, all of their sins, past, present, and future are already taken care of. Might I ask which is it?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

And what scripture have I argued with? I've already pointed this out. :o If you cannot show me any, then your attack is completely unwarranted. What attack? I, however, have shown you you which parts you argue with.

No, you have not. I pointed out where you were correct, and you responded by telling me

Sorry, Orthodox, but because you don't believe the bible as written

as you continue to here in this most recent post

But is doesn't seem to matter to you that you disagree with scripture or you wouldn't do it.

Jesus and Paul tell us how to pray. And there isn't one prayer in the bible that is addressed to a person.

"Our Father, who art in heaven."
Why do we pray 'we' and not 'me?' Becuase we pray together. When I ask a saint on this earth or in heaven to pray for me, we pray together to God.

Yet you justify doing that. You disagree with the 2nd commandment and justify praying to and bowing down to statues. We have a picture of the pope doing just that.

OC grabs bullhorn and shouts at 135 decibels in Heidi's ear
We don't have a Pope! I'm not Catholic! We don't use statues!
Has that sunk in yet?

Good. Now explain your transgression of the 4th commandment.

You say that Mary was virgin all her life when the bible clearly said Jesus had brothers. Bu again, what scripture have I argued with? :o

The better question is where is the scripture that says Mary had other children? I have 2 brothers that are not my mother's children. If someone referred to them, they would call them brothers of James- yet they are not my mom's kids.

So show me the scripture that says that Mary had other children, and we'll move on.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I know many OSAS people and that is exactly what they use to do whatever they want. I also know OSAS who truly serve the Lord.
I don't believe that if I make a mistake I am going directly to Hell. The Holy Spirit draws me back to repentence also, but if your sins are aready forgiven then why now do you speak of repentance? You are double talking. OSAS say they don't need to repent because, all of their sins, past, present, and future are already taken care of. Might I ask which is it?

May I please ask who you know who says that people who believe OSAS don't need to repent and that the Holy Spirit doesn't bring them to repentence like everyone else please? Because I really want to know. They are not an accurate representation of OSAS if they are!

 

[von]

Most Baptist that I know say that. They teach that they repented when they got saved and therefroe because they are sealed they don't have to repent anymore.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Aaah ok. Well I'm not a baptist ;)

That's why I really don't like religion and labels hey. We all get lumped in the same pot!

Well I'll tell you now - that we do repent like everyone else does. That the Holy Spirit brings us to repentence. That is how we are kept.

 

[AVBunyan]

Insane

AV,

1. Yes, witnessing to the predestined, exactly my point.

2. For you to claim to believe in predestination, and then also claim to be regenerated from a lost sinner into a faithful child of God just boggles my mind.

3. I am sorry to have to say this, but...You are lost! LOST, LOST, LOST...TOTALLY LOST!!!

1. Farley - you are as confused as a termite in a yoyo on this issue. God called me to be a witness and am an ambassador to the lost. I do not know who the elect are but my duty is to present the gospel and leave the results to God. Again, with feeling, God uses instruments. God uses his word through preaching and witnessing. I'm just seeking to be faithful in that duty. What are you doing?

2. It is because you do not understand depravity or justification.

3. OK Mr. Farley - now that you judged me to be lost. Then you tell me - I'm calling you out right now for all to witness - Since you are so smart as to determine my lack of salvation then you must know how one is justified before God. Ok Mr. Farley...
How is a man justified before God?

Let's see you expound this doctrine that you apparrently you are so well-versed on. I showed you what I believed from scripture.

I'm trust ing the shed blood of Jesus Christ and what he did in my sted at Calvary. I'm justified because of what Christ did at calvary

What are you resting on Mr. Farley?

Now does it bother me that you judged me to be lost? Doesn't keep me awake enough to yawn :roll:

 

[AVBunyan]

Confusion reigns

Most Baptist that I know say that. They teach that they repented when they got saved and therefroe because they are sealed they don't have to repent anymore.

Von - some of you folks get these terms so mixed up. I'm willing to wager (though I'm not a betting man :-D ) that what these Baptists mean is they donn't have to do that "initial act of repentance at salvation" anymore. God granted them the power to turn form the old life (repentance) and flee to Christ. Yes, this is a one time thing.

But...I'lll guarantee that if they are truly saved then they repent everyday - for they believe that grieving the spiriti (Eph.) is a dreadful thing, they hate sin, and therefore seek to repent when they are made aware of their sin by the Spirit.

I can't believe you still think grace believers live loose.

OK let's get mean here - I think I've had enough of this junk.

I've been dealing with the Arminians (Lose your salvation - man-centered salvation, etc.) for 22 years and you know what I've observed after dealing with folks and knocking doors? The ones who live the loosest, are the most worldly, the most carnal and fleshly are those of the Arminian pursuasion. If I had a dollar for every Pentacostal or charistmatic, church of the Nazarene, Catholic, Episcoplain, etc. who said..."Yes, I used to go to church..."...as he puts out his cigar, cigarrete or kicks his beer can out of the way then I could retire right now.

Now I'm saying theses denominations are all like that and I've run into ex-baptists who I'm ashamed of but don't tell me - I'll tell you - I know what I've run across over the years.

Those who understand grace seek to live more holy than those who do not believe grace alone.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I still go to church, read the scriptures, pray constantly, and I put my (once weekly) cigar out in my beer bottle.

I have watched a whole lot of OSAS people go astray, also. It's human nature, sadly.

What is clear, and what we agree upon, is that we need- all of us- to be in a state of constant repentance and vigilance. Not to safeguard our salvation (those of us who don't agree in OSAS also do not live in mortal fear of losing our salvation), but to please the Lord, and partake in the salvation of the world.

After all, my salvation ain't all about me. My purity before God makes me a vessel useful for the Kingdom, should I chose to purify my lips and wash my hands. No, not in pride or self-righteousness, but in humble obedience and reverent fear.

 

[AVBunyan]

I have watched a whole lot of OSAS people go astray, also. It's human nature, sadly.

Yes, OC - it is called the old nature - it is called grieving Spirit - it is called walking after the flesh.

Both OSAS and non-OSAS can be guilty of the above.

An old, godly Anglican minister once said long ago, "When I preach I sin, when I pray I sin, and my very repentance needs repenting of."

Every head bowed, every eye shut....

He understood - some here do not. :o