I’m saved – I can do anything I want

[AVBunyan]

Justificaton

1.If you feel up to tolerating my questions, I would like to slowly step through our last few posts to each other, taking things in bite-sized chunks, in hopes of understanding the merits of your position.

2. First off, you don't seem content with either of my replies to you about 'justification'.

3. In my first response re:justification near the bottom of page three here, I referenced Eph. 2:8-9.

4. Evidently, you found this inadaquate, so I then referenced Matt. 12:37 near the top of page four here, which I'm feeling you still find inadaquate.

5. Then you offer Romans 3:28, which carries the same message as Eph. 2:8, which you earlier rejected from my first reply to your 'justification' question.

6. I'm confused! Mostly by your inordinate preoccupation with 'justification'.

7. It seems you want to reduce the entire Bible down to one verse regarding 'justification', stand on it only, and reject everything else as un-necessary.

8. In my view, if there is one verse in the Bible, that leads one to salvation, it is John 3:16, and this will only apply if one sees the word 'believes' as meaning 'believes and obeys', as I do.

9. And, even then, one still needs the rest of the Bible to determine WHAT to believe and obey.

10. As I see things, the NT's Plan of Salvation, when followed properly, offers one 'justification' and 'salvation'...the whole enchillada. I'm almost positive that if one has salvation, 'justification' will be included into the mix.

11. So, as per step one, it seems to me that you are saying that if an alien sinner hears the truth, then s/he is 'justified'

12. No believe. BTW, your... "Gospel" today is not believing who Christ is - that was for the Jews prior to Calvary. Please review 1Cor. 15:1-5...comment is confusing to me also.

13. And anyway, is not ALL scripture suitable for teaching and learning to all?

Hi farley – good to see you are still with it – I know I’m a pain but bear with me here as we seek to sort this out.

1. I’m game for now but…I go into surgery tomorrow at 7:30 for some compressed nerves in my right arm so I may be out of commission for a while. It is painful now to even type.

2. No sir – sorry – I gave you a very clear and concise, biblical definition of the essence of justification in I Cor. 15:1-5 (the gospel that the sinner must believe) and how a man is justified (Rom. 2:16) – Your definition never included any of those verses. Please review my posts.

3. Eph. 2:8, 9 is a great passage but justification is not entirely there. It does say we are saved by grace and that faith is a free gift but does not tell you “how†a man is justified. The means are provided (faith and grace) here.

4. Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. –
Though the word justified is there this is prior to Calvary before Christ even died for sins and the death, burial and resurrection for sins is the foundation for justification – Justification in Matt is not dealing with the death, burial, and resurrection – couldn’t be – hasn’t taken place yet.

5. Eph. 2:8, 9 deals with faith, grace, and the free gift – Room. 3:22 shows one that what is needed is the righteousness of God and here is where we find that it is by the faith of Jesus Christ.

6. Because the issue is justification – how is a man justified before God? God demands perfect holiness – we cannot fulfill this - doing holy and good things is not enough – one must be perfectly righteous before God – we cannot be this – we cannot go from being a pile of dung to a perfect, righteous, sinless being in order to stand before God, so…what has to be done? We have to be made righteous – we have to become perfect as thou we had never sinned. How can this be done? It can be done through Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
We become righteous in Jesus Christ. By Christ becoming sin for us we are made righteous in him. God is pleased with the sacrifice and accepts us as perfect through Jesus Christ. God declares us righteous. God declares us justified from all sins as though we never had sinned. We have been declared free from guilt based upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ. When the Holy Spirit put the sinner into Jesus Christ we became righteous, perfect, and sinless in Him. Judicially, in God’s eyes, we are cleared forever of all guilt, now and forever! This is why we are called new creatures in II Cor. 5:17. This all happens at the point of regeneration – a one time event.

7. I throw out the anchor on justification for here is where it all starts – if this is wrong then all else becomes a mess. You are trying to bypass this doctrine and focus on what folks are to do as a result of true justification and then you try to make the practical obedience the positional.

8. John 3:16 is a great verse but where is justification there? Prior to Calvary they had to believe who Jesus was and that then if they believed that message they would not perish. Again, Christ had not died yet and they knew nothing of the death, burial, and resurrection for sins. Now we have a more clear understanding of what this means because of Paul.

9. You need Paul to find out about the details and doctrine justification – this was hid from folks prior to Paul. The rest of the Bible teaches obedience in areas – you are making those verses on obedience your basis of justification and salvation. You need to separate doctrine from duty – positional from practical.

10. Somewhat true – but one does not “follow†to be saved – God regenerates the man and then he will believe unto salvation.

11. The sinner is never justified just by hearing the word though this is the first step.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The sinner needs to hear the facts and then God uses the word to open his eyes by the Spirit so he can believe. This is why it is so important to make sure you have the right Bible.

12. In the Gospels the message was, (Jesus talking here and me paraphrasing)…
“You (Israel mainly) must believe that I am your Messiah and God manifest in the flesh if you want to get into the physical, earthly kingdom that my Father promised to you (Israel). And by the way – I haven’t died yet for sins so you still have to keep the law.â€Â
We are not under this message anymore – our good news is I Cor. 15:1-5.

13. Quote it right farley - 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, - get the doctrine first and then the reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness is built upon the doctrine.

Farley – this is all I can do for now. I trust it is becoming clearer now. Pray that God would make sense out of my poor attempt to explain this subject matter!

God bless

 

[Orthodox Christian]

4. This person must then repent of all of their past sins.

AV's response

4. Wrong – works - you are stuck in Acts 2:28 – Jewish message

Repentance is unnecessary according to AV, something for the Jews to do.

This is the doctrine of Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess.


Repentance- metaoinia- is a complex Greek term meaning 're-think, turn from, and return (home), and bemoan.' The classic example of this is the parable of the 'prodigal son.' He first re-thought his position while sitting with the pigs. He left that to return home to servitude, but he was forced to re-think that as well. The love and generosity of his father transformed him, but this relational interaction between father and son continued to transform the son over time- and spill over to the rest of the family.

But let's do this up right, as we see Paul's preaching of repentance:
Acts 26:15-20
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

It's pretty clear that this point 4 response of AV's is not founded in scripture

 

[AVBunyan]

Twister

4. This person must then repent of all of their past sins.

AV's response
[quote:04d48]4. Wrong – works - you are stuck in Acts 2:28 – Jewish message

Repentance is unnecessary according to AV, something for the Jews to do.

This is the doctrine of Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess.[/quote:04d48]
You twist my words because you have no understanding of sound doctrine in this area.

I never said one should not repent.
One's repentance does not justify.
Dead men can't repent - once regenerated they can repent.

Out of all I put out and you pick that out - amazing!

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Twister

4. This person must then repent of all of their past sins.

AV's response
[quote:7af72]4. Wrong – works - you are stuck in Acts 2:28 – Jewish message

Repentance is unnecessary according to AV, something for the Jews to do.

This is the doctrine of Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess.

You twist my words because you have no understanding of sound doctrine in this area.

I never said one should not repent.
One's repentance does not justify.
Dead men can't repent - once regenerated they can repent.

Out of all I put out and you pick that out - amazing![/quote:7af72]
I didn't "twist" your words- I quoted them. You have now clarified.
If "dead" men cannot repent, why is it that the Psalmist says

Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.

Which is the very thought of Jonah

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

Not to mention the son of whom it is spoken

And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

In his repentance, which was incomplete at that time, he returned to his father, who said of him

And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.

Only a dead man can repent. The live man is alive to himself.
But I agree with you in this- only the Lord quickens the man- regenerates- so that he can climb out of the grave and begin a new life. This happens repeatedly thereafter, as Paul said

I die daily

And out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord. God's response? Psalm 18

The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, [even] into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness [was] under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

He truly is mighty to save.

Thank you for clarifying your seemingly lawless statement.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Twister

I didn't "twist" your words- I quoted them. You have now clarified.
If "dead" men cannot repent, why is it that the Psalmist says

Thank you for clarifying your seemingly lawless statement.

You weary me OC with your nonsense.

Because many of you folks here make the word repent always apply to salvation I was making reference to repentace and justification. The dead man cannot repent unto salvation for he is dead. Once he has been regenerated then he can. After he is saved (alive) he can repent all the time.

A dead man can turn away from sin or quit doing wrong - but he canot turn to salvation on his own - this is a work that the Holy Spirit does in a man.

OC - when are you going to learn the difference between positional truths vs. practical truths? You keep trying to make practical truths the basis for justification.

You have shown me that you understand how the saint is justified before God. All you keep doing is taking works of obedience and making them apply to justification. What a mess! :o

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Twister

I didn't "twist" your words- I quoted them. You have now clarified.
If "dead" men cannot repent, why is it that the Psalmist says

Thank you for clarifying your seemingly lawless statement.

You weary me OC with your nonsense.

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

Because many of you folks here make the word repent always apply to salvation I was making reference to repentace and justification.

And look how I gave you an opportunity to clarify your murky position. Thanks will not be necessary.

BTW, there is no delineation between metaonia before and after justification, in scripture. So this repentance specific to justification premise just is not going to wash.

The dead man cannot repent unto salvation for he is dead. Once he has been regenerated then he can. After he is saved (alive) he can repent all the time.

I give you multiple, specific scripture, and you give me more of your opinion. Guess who got the better of that exchange...again, thanks are not necessary.

A dead man can turn away from sin or quit doing wrong - but he canot turn to salvation on his own - this is a work that the Holy Spirit does in a man.

Um, let's see, what did OC actually say?

But I agree with you in this- only the Lord quickens the man- regenerates- so that he can climb out of the grave and begin a new life.

Be slow to speak and quick to listen, and you won't miss the obvious again. Thanks.

OC - when are you going to learn the difference between positional truths vs. practical truths? You keep trying to make practical truths the basis for justification.

Away with your jargon. I want scripture.

You have shown me that you understand how the saint is justified before God. All you keep doing is taking works of obedience and making them apply to justification. What a mess! :o

So does James- but that's not really what I have been doing. Works of obedience relate to both sanctification and justification. Both of these are begun and sustained by Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. But unless we participate, we do not realize or 'lay hold' of salvation. We continue to speak of salvation as it found in scripture: relational; whereas you continue to peak of it in judicial terms.
Ironically, therefore, it is you who is still under the Law. We are under grace.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Twister

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

OC - Feel free to read my post and you can respond if you like but I'm finished with responding to you.

If you want to think you got the best of me then fine - I'm happy for you. :roll:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Twister

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

OC - Feel free to read my post and you can respond if you like but I'm finished with responding to you.

If you want to think you got the best of me then fine - I'm happy for you. :roll:

Not my intent. My intent was to deal with what you posted, and you've taken that personally.

 

[farley]

AV,

Just time for a quick comment for now.

I think that I'm beginning to see something about your concern over 'justification'.

But, I'm not so sure that Step Two - Believe...doesn't take care of this need automatically.

Also, I'm concerned with your take on the translation of passages using archaic English, such as "...by the faith of Jesus Christ...". All modern versions of the NT see this as "...by the faith in Jesus Christ...".

To me it doesn't make sense that we are saved by Jesus' faith in US. Surely you must agree that these passages have to mean that we are saved by OUR faith in Jesus.

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Also, I'm concerned with your take on the translation of passages using archaic English, such as "...by the faith of Jesus Christ...". All modern versions of the NT see this as "...by the faith in Jesus Christ...".

2. To me it doesn't make sense that we are saved by Jesus' faith in US. Surely you must agree that these passages have to mean that we are saved by OUR faith in Jesus.

1. Archaic? I'll be nice and not turn this into a KJV issue but I have to explain.
All modern versions originated with Origen 3rd century - Origen believed in a works salvation so it is reflected in his translation (all modern versions). "Faith of" is Jesus' faith (his work at Calvary) - "faith in" refers to our faith in him - our faith in Christ does not justifiy.

2. "In faith" doesn't mean Jesus' faith in us but our faith in him (wrong) and our faith cannot justify - it is God that justifies on the basis of what Chrsit did at Calvary.

Faith of references Christ's faith and the work he did at Calvary - I do hope this is clearer. One faith (faith in Chrsit) is based upon us - faith of (Christ's) is based upon Christ - big, big difference!

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Twister

Not my intent. My intent was to deal with what you posted, and you've taken that personally.

I didn't take it personally - but there comes a time when the discussions go nowhere or posters just don't click.

 

[Solo]

Re: Twister

[quote="Orthodox Christian":babbd]
I didn't "twist" your words- I quoted them. You have now clarified.
If "dead" men cannot repent, why is it that the Psalmist says

Thank you for clarifying your seemingly lawless statement.

You weary me OC with your nonsense.

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

Because many of you folks here make the word repent always apply to salvation I was making reference to repentace and justification.

And look how I gave you an opportunity to clarify your murky position. Thanks will not be necessary.

BTW, there is no delineation between metaonia before and after justification, in scripture. So this repentance specific to justification premise just is not going to wash.

The dead man cannot repent unto salvation for he is dead. Once he has been regenerated then he can. After he is saved (alive) he can repent all the time.

I give you multiple, specific scripture, and you give me more of your opinion. Guess who got the better of that exchange...again, thanks are not necessary.

A dead man can turn away from sin or quit doing wrong - but he canot turn to salvation on his own - this is a work that the Holy Spirit does in a man.

Um, let's see, what did OC actually say?

But I agree with you in this- only the Lord quickens the man- regenerates- so that he can climb out of the grave and begin a new life.

Be slow to speak and quick to listen, and you won't miss the obvious again. Thanks.

OC - when are you going to learn the difference between positional truths vs. practical truths? You keep trying to make practical truths the basis for justification.

Away with your jargon. I want scripture.

You have shown me that you understand how the saint is justified before God. All you keep doing is taking works of obedience and making them apply to justification. What a mess! :o

So does James- but that's not really what I have been doing. Works of obedience relate to both sanctification and justification. Both of these are begun and sustained by Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. But unless we participate, we do not realize or 'lay hold' of salvation. We continue to speak of salvation as it found in scripture: relational; whereas you continue to peak of it in judicial terms.
Ironically, therefore, it is you who is still under the Law. We are under grace.[/quote:babbd]
OC,
You just disappointed me in your avenue of ad hominem attack on AVBunyan instead of righteously debating the issues. Your position has just dropped in accuracy because of this attack. If you can not debate the entire position as presented then you show your weakness in the area of salvation theology.
Once again, you have offended the intelligence of debate of this forum with your needless ad hominem attack.
Solo

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Twister

[quote="Orthodox Christian":299c4]
I didn't "twist" your words- I quoted them. You have now clarified.
If "dead" men cannot repent, why is it that the Psalmist says

Thank you for clarifying your seemingly lawless statement.

You weary me OC with your nonsense.

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

Because many of you folks here make the word repent always apply to salvation I was making reference to repentace and justification.

And look how I gave you an opportunity to clarify your murky position. Thanks will not be necessary.

BTW, there is no delineation between metaonia before and after justification, in scripture. So this repentance specific to justification premise just is not going to wash.

The dead man cannot repent unto salvation for he is dead. Once he has been regenerated then he can. After he is saved (alive) he can repent all the time.

I give you multiple, specific scripture, and you give me more of your opinion. Guess who got the better of that exchange...again, thanks are not necessary.

A dead man can turn away from sin or quit doing wrong - but he canot turn to salvation on his own - this is a work that the Holy Spirit does in a man.

Um, let's see, what did OC actually say?

But I agree with you in this- only the Lord quickens the man- regenerates- so that he can climb out of the grave and begin a new life.

Be slow to speak and quick to listen, and you won't miss the obvious again. Thanks.

OC - when are you going to learn the difference between positional truths vs. practical truths? You keep trying to make practical truths the basis for justification.

Away with your jargon. I want scripture.

You have shown me that you understand how the saint is justified before God. All you keep doing is taking works of obedience and making them apply to justification. What a mess! :o

So does James- but that's not really what I have been doing. Works of obedience relate to both sanctification and justification. Both of these are begun and sustained by Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. But unless we participate, we do not realize or 'lay hold' of salvation. We continue to speak of salvation as it found in scripture: relational; whereas you continue to peak of it in judicial terms.
Ironically, therefore, it is you who is still under the Law. We are under grace.

OC,
You just disappointed me in your avenue of ad hominem attack on AVBunyan instead of righteously debating the issues. Your position has just dropped in accuracy because of this attack. If you can not debate the entire position as presented then you show your weakness in the area of salvation theology.
Once again, you have offended the intelligence of debate of this forum with your needless ad hominem attack.
Solo[/quote:299c4]
I think you need to check that a little closer, Solo. In poin of fact, this was the first 'ad hominem:'

You weary me OC with your nonsense

I had simply responded scripturally to a distortion in his posts.
My response to this response? Light-hearted

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

I think that my reply to

OC - Feel free to read my post and you can respond if you like but I'm finished with responding to you.

If you want to think you got the best of me then fine - I'm happy for you

Was concilliatory in nature

Not my intent. My intent was to deal with what you posted, and you've taken that personally

.

So, I might add, please take care to read the context.

 

[Solo]

Re: Twister

[quote="Orthodox Christian":0271d]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":0271d]
I didn't "twist" your words- I quoted them. You have now clarified.
If "dead" men cannot repent, why is it that the Psalmist says

Thank you for clarifying your seemingly lawless statement.

You weary me OC with your nonsense.

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

Because many of you folks here make the word repent always apply to salvation I was making reference to repentace and justification.

And look how I gave you an opportunity to clarify your murky position. Thanks will not be necessary.

BTW, there is no delineation between metaonia before and after justification, in scripture. So this repentance specific to justification premise just is not going to wash.

The dead man cannot repent unto salvation for he is dead. Once he has been regenerated then he can. After he is saved (alive) he can repent all the time.

I give you multiple, specific scripture, and you give me more of your opinion. Guess who got the better of that exchange...again, thanks are not necessary.

A dead man can turn away from sin or quit doing wrong - but he canot turn to salvation on his own - this is a work that the Holy Spirit does in a man.

Um, let's see, what did OC actually say?

But I agree with you in this- only the Lord quickens the man- regenerates- so that he can climb out of the grave and begin a new life.

Be slow to speak and quick to listen, and you won't miss the obvious again. Thanks.

OC - when are you going to learn the difference between positional truths vs. practical truths? You keep trying to make practical truths the basis for justification.

Away with your jargon. I want scripture.

You have shown me that you understand how the saint is justified before God. All you keep doing is taking works of obedience and making them apply to justification. What a mess! :o

So does James- but that's not really what I have been doing. Works of obedience relate to both sanctification and justification. Both of these are begun and sustained by Christ, the author and finisher of our faith. But unless we participate, we do not realize or 'lay hold' of salvation. We continue to speak of salvation as it found in scripture: relational; whereas you continue to peak of it in judicial terms.
Ironically, therefore, it is you who is still under the Law. We are under grace.

OC,
You just disappointed me in your avenue of ad hominem attack on AVBunyan instead of righteously debating the issues. Your position has just dropped in accuracy because of this attack. If you can not debate the entire position as presented then you show your weakness in the area of salvation theology.
Once again, you have offended the intelligence of debate of this forum with your needless ad hominem attack.
Solo[/quote:0271d]
I think you need to check that a little closer, Solo. In poin of fact, this was the first 'ad hominem:'

You weary me OC with your nonsense

I had simply responded scripturally to a distortion in his posts.
My response to this response? Light-hearted

I might recommend Geritol. That will help with the weariness. I don't know what can help your Lego set theology or bilious personality

I think that my reply to

OC - Feel free to read my post and you can respond if you like but I'm finished with responding to you.

If you want to think you got the best of me then fine - I'm happy for you

Was concilliatory in nature

Not my intent. My intent was to deal with what you posted, and you've taken that personally

.

So, I might add, please take care to read the context.[/quote:0271d]
OC,
If that is your point, then you should not recompense evil for evil. You just lowered yourself in my humble opinion.
Of course, I too am guilty of walking in the flesh at times.
Solo

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Twister

OC,
If that is your point, then you should not recompense evil for evil. You just lowered yourself in my humble opinion.
Of course, I too am guilty of walking in the flesh at times.
Solo

Agreed.
That I lowered myself, that is. :wink:

 

[farley]

AV,

I'm not an authority on anything, especially languages. I don't know who Origen is, but I intend to find out. If most translations are drawn from the original Hebrew and Greek, then I don't see much room for this Origen fellow.

I actually prefer the KJV, but I have to thank computers for making many software versions of many translations of the Bible readily available.

Also, I'm not formally schooled in Hebrew or Greek, but thanks to Strong's Numbers I feel capable enough to ferret most meanings out in the original text.

I consider the KJV-1611, archaic English, since I usually have to compare everything to a MORE modern version just for my own peace of mind.

Anyway, good luck with your surgery!!!

Don't worry about this discussion, or your rumming gun battle with OC here, I'm sure that we will both be here once you are fully recovered.

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

AV,

1. I'm not an authority on anything, especially languages. I don't know who Origen is, but I intend to find out. If most translations are drawn from the original Hebrew and Greek, then I don't see much room for this Origen fellow.

2. I actually prefer the KJV, but I have to thank computers for making many software versions of many translations of the Bible readily available.

3. Also, I'm not formally schooled in Hebrew or Greek, but thanks to Strong's Numbers I feel capable enough to ferret most meanings out in the original text.

4. I consider the KJV-1611, archaic English, since I usually have to compare everything to a MORE modern version just for my own peace of mind.

5. Anyway, good luck with your surgery!!!

6. Don't worry about this discussion, or your rumming gun battle with OC here, I'm sure that we will both be here once you are fully recovered.

In Christ,

farley

1. I like your humility - refreshing.

2. Maybe the Lord can show you more of the power of the KJV -

3. It is good you know little Gree/Hebrew - the less the better - I believe God meant for us to use an English Bible - plus the originals are nowhere to be found anyway.

4. Please look at my modest site av1611bible.com - on the left pannel you will see a 1611 Links - please browse the links - a wealth of information on this subject.

5. Thank ye kindly for your concern - I'm out and it went ok - I can barely type - one finger at a time - will have to cut back for a while :-D

6. We'll hook up later - as for OC - I think we best not chat with each other so as to not create any problems on this forum.

May God richly bless farley 8-)

 

[Solo]

AVBunyan,
I am glad to see that all went well even if you are one fingering it! Keep up the good work.

 

[AVBunyan]

Thanks

AVBunyan,
I am glad to see that all went well even if you are one fingering it! Keep up the good work.

Thank you kindly Solo - I will keep low profile for a bit - gives me some time to catch up on some Bible food and spend time with wife and children!

May God bless! :-D

 

[farley]

AV,

I hope that your surgery turns out to be a success. Don't be in a rush to jump back onto the keyboard. I'm going to start making a few comments along, taking tiny baby steps, on points of issue for me as I see them. Just file them away until you feel ready respond. No rush!!!

I've been going back over some of my posts here in this thread, and your responses to them. You made the comment...

The saint is secure in Christ – sealed until the day of redemption – Eph. 1:13.

It is my view that here Paul is taking to/about OBEDIENT Christians. Looking at the beginning of this passage...

Ephesians 1:1 KJV
(1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

...we see Paul specify exactly who he is talking to. "...the faithful in Christ Jesus:".

For one supporting OSAS, I'm sure this is a non-issue, but for me, it is a BIG deal!

Paul did not use a more simple term such as 'follower' or 'believer' or 'disciple' or 'Christian' in this passage. By using the term "faithful", Paul clearly is making a distinction here. Therefore, this qualification guarantees that there has to be such an animal as an UNFAITHFUL, or DISOBEDIENT, Christian.

More later...get well, pronto!!!

In Christ,

farley