I’m saved – I can do anything I want

[Heidi]

Most Baptist that I know say that. They teach that they repented when they got saved and therefroe because they are sealed they don't have to repent anymore.

Sorry, but that's a flat out lie. Baptists do not believe that. They believe that repentance is ongoing until we die. Paul even talks about those going to heaven, only as one "escaping through the flames." Some will do more works than others which is why there are many rooms in heaven.

The Holy Spirit is what saves us, not our wonderful nature, intelligence, wisdom, and good works. People who focus on their works are boastful. But the ones who truly do good works do them with their left hand without their right hand know what the left hand is doing. Therefore, they cannot keep a track record.

 

[von]

Merry- Well, that is how i believe, too. I don't believe that everytime you fall or make a mistake that you have to "get saved" agian. I just believe that you have to repent.

AVBunyan I don't even know what you are talking about. "I can't believe you still think grace believers live loose." I didn't say that they all do and I know that pentecostals, etc don't live very holy, I don't think that they are going to heaven any more than the next guy if they don't repent also.

Heidi, I'd appreciate you not calling me a liar. I am not a liar. I have had many conversations with Baptists and that is exactly what they believe.
You talk out of both sides of your mouth. In one breath you say you CAN live anyway that you want but choose not to and in the other breath you say a person has to repent. So, just what do you believe?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Von - when one is regenerated, our desires are God's desires. When one is walking in the spirit, what one wants is what God wants. So in a sense we are doing 'whatever we want' it's just that what we now want (life) is not the same as what we used to want (death).

 

[farley]

AV,

Ok Mr. Farley...
How is a man justified before God?

I realize that my past comments here haven't made an impact on anyone here in this forum (other than to provoke you AV) and my future comments probably won't either, but, the truth can be found in these threads. It has been ignored and rejected by most everyone here, so far. And, I'm not talking about only my comments either.

Anyway...

In my dictionary, justified – means to be judged and found innocent.

Therefore, I don’t see how I can ever be justified before God!!!

Any kindness that God may show me during my existence will truly be a gift from Him to a most unworthy me.

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV-1611
(8) For by grace are ye saued, through faith, and that not of your selues: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of workes, lest any man should boast.

By the way, some seem to look at verse nine above and JUSTIFY never lifting a finger in
God’s behalf. Wrong!

Iohn 14:15 KJV-1611
(15) If ye loue me, keepe my commandements.

In my view, keeping commandments involves WORK. Not in order to earn salvation, but
to be obedient to His Word.

Iames 2:17-18 KJV-1611
(17) Euen so faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone.
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I haue workes: shew mee thy faith without thy workes, and I will shew thee my faith by my workes.

My dictionary defines, grace – as unmerited favor.

As I understand the Bible, I just hope and pray that Jesus Christ will find MY faith in Him, and obedience to His Word, sufficient to grant me salvation through His grace.

When verses are misinterpreted and/or taken out of context, they will conflict with other verses, as well as the overall message of the Bible. If you, or anyone, see conflict with my interpretation of the above passages, please alert me, and I will be happy to sort the truth out with you.

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

So???????????

AV,

Ok Mr. Farley... How is a man justified before God?

1. In my dictionary, justified – means to be judged and found innocent.

2. Therefore, I don’t see how I can ever be justified before God!!!

In Christ, farley

1. What dictionary? How about scripture? I use a Webster's 1828 dictionary but I still go to scripture as the final authority.

2. This is because you still don't know what took place doctrinally at Calvary.

Ok farley - now one more time - how is a man justified before God?

Since you have judged me to still be lost then you most know of being justified for you are insinuating that you are saved while I am lost.

The scriptures clearly say the saint is justified before God.

So then farley....how is the saint justified before God - You have yet to show scripturally.

By the way - the word justified is in the Bible - what is so hard about this simple excercise? :roll:

I have shown it...what about you?

Come on farley - I'm easy to get along with - remember it was you who straight out called me lost. :-D

Thank you

 

[farley]

Ah, Mr. Bunyan,

I seem to detect a note of smugness in your comment.

I see plenty of scripture referenced in my response, more so than yours. You must be clairvoyant to claim to know what I know about Calvary.

Christ shed His blood to pay for all the sins of mankind. Yet, the state of our salvation and justification remains in a state of flux until the moment of our death.

You indicate that my last post was incomplete regarding one’s justification. Therefore, since you demand more scripture regarding one’s justification, there are many, I’ll offer you another passage...

Matthew 12:36-37 KJV-1611
(36) But I say vnto you, That euery idle word that men shall speake, they shall giue accompt thereof in the day of Iudgement.
(37) For by thy wordes thou shalt bee iustified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Now, would you care to amend your words about a predestined person being regenerated?

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

Justified

1. I see plenty of scripture referenced in my response, more so than yours.

2. Christ shed His blood to pay for all the sins of mankind.

3. Yet, the state of our salvation and justification remains in a state of flux until the moment of our death.

4. (37) For by thy wordes thou shalt bee iustified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

1. I did not provide many with your posts but I have provided plenty on each thread I have been in - more so than you I think - thank you.

2. Then all will be saved if Jesus shed his blood for all? :o I think not - christ did not shed his blood for naught!

3. Works - this is depending on you - why cannot you see this? :o

4. This was written beforeo Calvary - before Christ shed his blood.

Ok farley - I will quit seeking to lead a horse to water. I will provide what I've provided already numerous times and quite beating around the bush here.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Whose faith is being discussed here? Let's see....

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now - how much clearer can that be?

Farley - where is your part in all that? I see only Christ! :D

A good defenition by Webster's 1828 which I believe fits scripture:

Justify
2. In theology, to pardon and clear form guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.

Farley - I'm trying to give you a blessing not stir up an argument - I'm trying to point you to perfect rest in Jesus Christ. After justification is settled then the issue of working out one's salvation becomes much simpler and wasy to understand and will not be confused with justification..

The true saint who is resting in Christ alone will have good works and seek not to grieve the holy Spirit of God - he understands he was created unto good works - Ephesians.

God bless :wink:

 

[von]

Merry- I should have resonded to you when you said that when we are regenerated our desires are God's desires. That is so true but there sre times when people become weary in well doing and they give up, so they nno longer are doing what God wants. Do you see what I mean?
Let me ask you something are you and Heidi saying that I have no choice as to whether or not I want to serve the Lord?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Sure you have a choice just like you had a choice when you were unsaved.

When you were unsaved - your inner nature natually gravitated towards sin - you naturally chose sin, because that is what you desired. Now that you are saved your inner nature natually gravitates towards God because God is what you desire. Our flesh can no more change our inner nature than we can change our DNA.

Sure we can wander from time to time but the Holy Spirit never leaves us. The Good shepherd will always come looking for his little lost sheep and bring him back. And they come back willingly. The bible says that the sheep hear his voice and they follow him. That's what sheep do - if they were goats then they wouldn't...but you are not a goat and neither am I. And when we wander we will hear the masters call and we will follow him. It's in our nature to do so.

Jesus doesn't lose sheep. To suggest such a thing is to say that he is not the good shepherd.

 

[D46]

I love this...

Luke 15:4-7 (KJV) What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

It is only by the influence of the Spirit of God that the carnal mind can be subdued and destroyed; but those who wilfully resist and grieve that Spirit must be ultimately left to the hardness and blindness of their own hearts, if they do not repent and turn to God. God delights in mercy, and therefore a gracious warning is given. Even at this time the earth was ripe for destruction; but, God promised them one hundred and twenty years' respite: if they repented in that interim, well; if not, they should be destroyed by the flood.

 

[farley]

AV,

Even though our views do seem to overlap in a few places, we are not in agreement on many basics. Let me review some comments from our last couple of postings…

I said -- Christ shed His blood to pay for all the sins of mankind.

You said -- 2. Then all will be saved if Jesus shed his blood for all? I think not - christ did not shed his blood for naught!

I take it that you think I’m advocating “UNIVERSALISMâ€Â, I am not. ALL who properly confess and repent of their sins will be forgiven!!!

You said -- 3. Works - this is depending on you - why cannot you see this?

Hmmmm…I must admit that the full meaning of your above quote has just hit me!!! What you are saying is that anything that requires us to do anything for our own salvation is false…RIGHT???

Ohhh, you are sooo wrong, AV!!!

I must stop right here, and wait for your clarification on this. AV, please let me know, in more detail, your position regarding ‘works’ as quoted above. Thanks.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

Most Baptist that I know say that. They teach that they repented when they got saved and therefroe because they are sealed they don't have to repent anymore.

This is one believer who was saved in a Baptist Church and continues to attend a Baptist Church and have for 22 years, and I have never heard any Baptist say that one need not repent from sin. In fact, it is taught that the Christian life is one of repentence as one grows spiritually in the Lord Jesus Christ through the Word. The sealing of the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption is a promise, not a maybe, but sanctification and rewards to throw down at the feet of Jesus when he comes is very important as to how one builds his/her house on the foundation. Repentence is necessary, however, salvation is true.

 

[Solo]

Re: I’m saved – I can do anything I want

I was once lost as a goose in a snow storm – God, out of love, drew me with his Spirit, regenerated me, opened my eyes and I gloriously saved. God forgave me, redeemed me, sealed me with his holy Spirit of promise, put me into he body of Christ and raised me up and seated me in heavenly places in Christ.

And now…I can do what ever I want! I can smoke, get drunk, steal, and run around on my wife, cheat, lie, chase filthy women, and any other thing my mind can imagine.

Now that your gaskets are blown let me explain.

Yes, I can do the above and am quite capable of doing the above due to my old nature but…but…but guess what? Because of the work God did in me at salvation in making me a new creature I don’t want to the do the above.

Here is where some of get confused.

1. Because I’ve been regenerated doesn’t mean the old nature went away. The old nature (flesh) would love to do the above if it could. You folks have got to realize just how depraved your old nature really is. The old nature never got eradicated at salvation. You are still just as capable of committing the worse of sins. But what keeps me in check?

2. What keeps me in check is the Holy Spirit that indwells in me. God made me a new creature – old things passed away – all things have become new. The battle rages but now I have the Spirit in me that checks that desire and has given me new desires.

But I didn’t get saved by quitting doing the above and I won’t lose my salvation by committing the above. My salvation is not dependent upon what I do or don’t do.

I’m safe in the body of Christ sealed until the day of redemption.

The true grace believer seeks to please God out of a debt of love.
The true grace believer seeks to walk after the Spirit knowing that his old nature is still there seeking to rear its ugly head at any moment.

You folks assume that because we believe we are safe that that gives us a license to sin. We never believed that and don’t know of a grace believer that believes that.

The greatest Christian writers ever were the Puritans of the 1600’s and the 1700’s and guess what? They lived holy and guess what – they believed they were secure in Christ.

Great Post AVBunyan.

I used to believe that one could lose his salvation, but after many years of reading the Word, it is so obvious that God is the one who does the salvation process, and salvation was given while we were yet sinners, that once the Holy Spirit wakes us up to our condition, and we believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, drawn by God the Father, we know that we are saved.

The books written by John are very good for new believers to read, especially 1 John when making the determination of knowing that one is saved.

Thanks again for your insightful posts.

Michael

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: I’m saved – I can do anything I want

Great Post AVBunyan.

I used to believe that one could lose his salvation, but after many years of reading the Word, it is so obvious that God is the one who does the salvation process, and salvation was given while we were yet sinners, that once the Holy Spirit wakes us up to our condition, and we believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, drawn by God the Father, we know that we are saved.

Thanks again for your insightful posts.Michael

Thanks Michael - I appreciate that - and I was blessed by hearing your testimony on how God brought you to truth through the reading and believing his word.

May God richly bless 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

True justification

1. Even though our views do seem to overlap in a few places, we are not in agreement on many basics.

2.I take it that you think I’m advocating “UNIVERSALISMâ€Â,

3. I am not. ALL who properly confess and repent of their sins will be forgiven!!!

4. Farley said - Yet, the state of our salvation and justification remains in a state of flux until the moment of our death.
You said -- 3. Works - this is depending on you - why cannot you see this?

5. Hmmmm…I must admit that the full meaning of your above quote has just hit me!!! What you are saying is that anything that requires us to do anything for our own salvation is false…RIGHT???

6. Ohhh, you are sooo wrong, AV!!!

Hi farley –As mentioned before the real issue is justification. By the way – how about what I just mentioned regarding justification?

I do commend you for having a desire to carry on.

Now let’s chat…

1. It is possible that we are closer than it appears but…if you still maintain that one can “lose†salvation then we are very far apart.

2. I trust you are not – if you are not then good for you.

3. Borderline works – if one is trusting their “proper†confession and repentance then there is a problem. If one on the street were to tell me that I wouldn’t immediately jump on them – I’ve got more grace than that – but…I would probe. I would find out what they are really resting on. When God shows a man that Christ died for his sins and believes that then he will most likely confess and repent but only after he believed. His confession and believing did not justify him – justification comes only by way of Calvary. Many folks today are trusting “their†confession and repentance and not resting on what Christ did. Don’t make the mistake of making the confession and the repentance the basis of one’s salvation or even indicate it ahs a part in justification. Get justification settled first!

Question farley – What saved you?

4. Also – you used the word flux – look at a definition of flux:
Flux - Flowing; moving; maintained by a constant succession of parts; inconstant; variable.
This indicates that one must have all the parts and be constant thus implying man’s efforts. This is works. The saint is secure in Christ – sealed until the day of redemption – Eph. 1:13.

5. I trust that you understand my position – anything man does besides resting upon Christ alone is works. Works come after salvation as a result of regeneration – not a part of salvation.

6. Show me then – I showed you earlier how a man was justified from scripture – now refute that if you think I am wrong.

God bless

 

[farley]

AV,

Let me just spell out the Bible’s “Plan of Salvation†as I see it taught in the NT.

1. One must hear (or, read) the Truth.

2. This person then must truly believe that Jesus Christ is the one, true, living Son, of the one, true, living God, Jehovah. (One can’t believe the Gospel until one hears, or reads, it.)

3. This person must then confess this belief publicly, before men.

4. This person must then repent of all of their past sins.

5. Finally, this person must be baptized, by being totally immersed in water, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

During the act of baptism, one receives a measure of the Holy Spirit, and rises from the water a new person! An OBEDIENT Christian! A member of Christ’s flock!

At this point all of the above person’s sins have been washed away, totally forgiven, and forgotten, by God! This person is now in a state of SALVATION. Should s/he die at this point, their soul would go to heaven. They are still an obedient Christian!

However, as soon as this person has risen from the baptismal waters, they will begin being tempted by the same evil world that was there before their baptism. Any sinful thoughts that they may have and any sinful acts they may do, from this point on, will now be held against them. This person will then become a DISOBEDIENT Christian once they return to sin. They will no longer be in a state of salvation! Should one die in this condition, their works (good and evil) will be tallied against each other to determine their fate.

But, once this person properly repents of these new sins, they also will be forgiven, and forgotten. And, this person will no longer be a DISOBEDIENT Christian, but now has returned to being an OBEDIENT Christian, and is once again in a state of salvation. (This is the “state of flux†[my words] that I was referring to earlier). Hence the need for constant prayer, asking for forgiveness of our sins.

I realize that few, if any, on this forum will agree with my views above, but this is what the Scripture says to me. I did not include any references in support of the interpretations above, but I have them available if any would be interested.

OK, AV, I would like to hear your position now!

In Christ.

farley

 

[Solo]

Perhaps you could give scripture references to your statement of faith farley. That would be the best way to establish any common ground between believers. You or others could be in error just as Peter was in Antioch when Paul presented the true gospel to him as Peter was withdrawing from Gentiles.

 

[AVBunyan]

False gospel

AV,

Let me just spell out the Bible’s “Plan of Salvation†as I see it taught in the NT.

1. One must hear (or, read) the Truth.

2. This person then must truly believe that Jesus Christ is the one, true, living Son, of the one, true, living God, Jehovah. (One can’t believe the Gospel until one hears, or reads, it.)

3. This person must then confess this belief publicly, before men.

4. This person must then repent of all of their past sins.

5. Finally, this person must be baptized, by being totally immersed in water, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

6. During the act of baptism, one receives a measure of the Holy Spirit, and rises from the water a new person! An OBEDIENT Christian! A member of Christ’s flock!

7. Any sinful thoughts that they may have and any sinful acts they may do, from this point on, will now be held against them. This person will then become a DISOBEDIENT Christian once they return to sin. They will no longer be in a state of salvation!

8. Should one die in this condition, their works (good and evil) will be tallied against each other to determine their fate.

9. But, once this person properly repents of these new sins, they also will be forgiven, and forgotten. And, this person will no longer be a DISOBEDIENT Christian, but now has returned to being an OBEDIENT Christian, and is once again in a state of salvation.
Hence the need for constant prayer, asking for forgiveness of our sins.

10. I realize that few, if any, on this forum will agree with my views above, but this is what the Scripture says to me. I did not include any references in support of the interpretations above, but I have them available if any would be interested.

1. Right – Rom. 10:17
2. Wrong – the “gospel†today is not believing who Christ is – that was for the Jews prior to Calvary. Please review I Cor. 15:1-5
3. Wrong – works – this was done prior to Calvary
4. Wrong – works - you are stuck in Acts 2:28 – Jewish message
5. Wrong – works - you are stuck in Acts 2:28 – Jewish message

6. If he is trusting his baptism then he comes out of the water just as lost as he was before he went into the water.

7. Farley – do you sin? How often? Was Christ’s death not sufficient for these also? What you are saying is that Christ die for past sins only and now you get rid of future sins by your special acts.

8. Works – works – works = damnation

9. Farley – are you obedient 24 hours a day? Do you know what sin really is?

The person you are describing above has been lost from day one an d is still lost. Why? He has not believed that Christ died for his sins. From what you listed above here is what he is trusting:
1. His public confession - #3
2. His repentance - #4
3. His baptism -#5
4. His not sinning #7 & #8
5. His Repentance again #9

I see a lot of “his†– 5 at least… 5 = number of death.

Farley – this appears to be classic Church of Christ false doctrine. If not Church of Christ it is still false.

There is no death, burial, resurrection, no sinner believing Christ died for sins in your message anywhere – all, pure works except for your first point.

Your gospel is not good news. Your gospels is a combination of Jewish commands that you took and slapped on sinners today. This is a works message and Paul warns about it n Gal. 1:8,9.

And yes, I know where you got your verses from.

Very sad farley. You never commented on my post on justification where I gave clear and simple scriptures.

 

[AVBunyan]

Salvation

Farley –

1. The sinner gets his faith as a free gift:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2. The faith he gets is not his:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ,


3. The above faith is what justifies – it is Christ’s faith no ours..

4. The faith that justifies (Christ’s) also is the faith we live daily by.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

5. We are sealed with the holy Spirit
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

6. How long? Unto the day of redemption:
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

7. God started the work – he will finish it:
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Man is saved by what Christ did at Calvary:
1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Isn't the above a blessing? - that is Bible not me - I'm not trying to win a debate here - I'm trying to further the true gospel of God's grace.

Read this verse farley - this is my favorite verse in the scriptures:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

God bless

 

[farley]

AV,

It appears that we are pretty far apart on our understanding of the Scriptures. However, I am only interested in determining the truth! If you say that I'm in error, then the wider the gulf we have between us, the more obvious the truth should be, right!!!

If you feel up to tolerating my questions, I would like to slowly step through our last few posts to each other, taking things in bite-sized chunks, in hopes of understanding the merits of your position.

First off, you don't seem content with either of my replies to you about 'justification'. In my first response re:justification near the bottom of page three here, I referenced Eph. 2:8-9. Evidently, you found this inadaquate, so I then referenced Matt. 12:37 near the top of page four here, which I'm feeling you still find inadaquate.

Then you offer Romans 3:28, which carries the same message as Eph. 2:8, which you earlier rejected from my first reply to your 'justification' question.

I'm confused! Mostly by your inordinate preoccupation with 'justification'. It seems you want to reduce the entire Bible down to one verse regarding 'justification', stand on it only, and reject everything else as un-necessary.

In my view, if there is one verse in the Bible, that leads one to salvation, it is John 3:16, and this will only apply if one sees the word 'believes' as meaning 'believes and obeys', as I do. And, even then, one still needs the rest of the Bible to determine WHAT to believe and obey.

As I see things, the NT's Plan of Salvation, when followed properly, offers one 'justification' and 'salvation'...the whole enchillada. I'm almost positive that if one has salvation, 'justification' will be included into the mix.

Now, you are OK with step one, hearing the word.

So, as per step one, it seems to me that you are saying that if an alien sinner hears the truth, then s/he is 'justified'. And, I'm making a leap here, Once Justified...Always Justified (OJAJ), correct!!!

Step two, is not OK.

No believe. BTW, your... "Gospel" today is not believing who Christ is - that was for the Jews prior to Calvary. Please review 1Cor. 15:1-5...comment is confusing to me also. Corinth was in Greece, was it not? Therefore, Paul is addressing Greeks not Jews. And anyway, is not ALL scripture suitable for teaching and learning to all?

This is plenty for me for now. I sort of went ahead into this discussion without getting your approval. If you aren't interested in pursuing this discussion, I'll understand.

In Christ,

farley