Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

[Mr. G Lee]

In the Book of Revelation, chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.

Here we have the absolute equality of Jesus Christ with God the Father. IF, as some suggest that Jesus Christ is not YHWH, then these passages in Revelation, and other Books, would not read as they do.

I think you meant Jesus the Christ as God the Creator Not Jesus the Son of man a creation a prophet sent as a apostle .

God is not a Jewish man . that would seem to follow be a wile of the father of lies . worship the dying creation more than the life giving Creator .Called the wrath of God

 

[SolaScriptura]

I think you meant Jesus the Christ as God the Creator Not Jesus the Son of man a creation a prophet sent as a apostle .

God is not a Jewish man . that would seem to follow be a wile of the father of lies . worship the dying creation more than the life giving Creator .Called the wrath of God

There is only ONE Jesus Christ, Who has existed from all eternity past, as God; as has God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. This is clear in both the Old and New Testaments

 

[Mr. G Lee]

There is only ONE Jesus Christ, Who has existed from all eternity past, as God; as has God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. This is clear in both the Old and New Testaments

If you are referring to Jesus, the Son of man .He has not existed from eternal past. He was born of Mary just like all humans.

That would seem to muddy things up. There is "one God" called a Father the anointing Holy Spirit of Christ. Christ meaning teacher. In other words God is the teacher as our Lord.

The Son of man Jesus is simply our brother in the Lord. Whosoever does the will of God the same applies.

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

[Runningman]

In Isaiah 9:6, which is a Prophecy for the Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Titles is "’êl Gibbôr". This is exactly the same that is used for the Father in Isaiah 10:21. In both places the translation is the same, "Mighty God", which is how even the Jehovah's Witnesses read. How can Jesus Christ be MIGHTY GOD, as the Father is, and be in any way inferior to the Father?

Do a bit more research on a word study, but I'll throw you a bit more information. The plural form of "’êl Gibbôr" is in Ezekiel 32:21 and it isn't translated as "Mighty Gods" because that word doesn't have to be translated that way. If there are exceptions to the way Isaiah 9:6 is translated then Isaiah 9:6 doesn't have to be translated that way. See below.

I would recommend Isaiah 9:6 be translated as "mighty hero" or something like that. The Revised English Version does translate Isaiah 9:6 as such instead of mighty God. Another clue is that Jesus is never called the "mighty God" by anyone in the Bible, but he's called a Savior which is heroic.

Jesus being a mighty hero and not a mighty God is a valid translation.

ḡib·bō·w·rîm ’ê·lê

21Mighty chiefs will speak from the midst of Sheol
about Egypt and her allies:
‘They have come down and lie with the uncircumcised,
with those slain by the sword.’

 

[Runningman]

That would seem to be a misinterpretation. The King is the King of earthly kings.

Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation.

Thou art fairer than dying mankind: grace is poured into thy lips:


Psalms 45:1-2 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

Psalm 45 does indeed refer to a human king with a queen. It's all in the chapter. In my opinion, that's enough to know this isn't talking about God Almighty, but rather a king with a God. Also, Psalm 45 was not originally about Jesus since all we know is that Jesus was never married to a foreign queen. Some have suggested that this is about the church being a bride, but the church is never referred to as a queen.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I would recommend Isaiah 9:6 be translated as "mighty hero" or something like that

Based on exactly what? Why not the same in Isaiah 10:21, when used for the Father? Is it only when these verses speak of Christ' Deity, like John 1:1, that another, lesser meaning is proposed?

Elohim is translated as God and god, but that does not mean that only when it is used for the Father, it is God, and when for Jesus, it is god. This is nothing but theological bias, and not what the Bible actually says

There is absolutely no reason Biblically, to translate êl Gibbôr, when used in 9:6, for Jesus, as Mighty hero, but, when used for the Father, it must be Mighty God.

Honesty is crucial in our correct understanding of what God the Holy Spirit has Written through the writers of the Bible

 

[Runningman]

Based on exactly what? Why not the same in Isaiah 10:21, when used for the Father? Is it only when these verses speak of Christ' Deity, like John 1:1, that another, lesser meaning is proposed?

John 1:1 doesn't speak of the deity of Jesus so there isn't a precedent for interpreting Jesus as literally a "mighty God." If "Mighty God" is the correct translation of Isaiah 9:6, then it stills says that's just only what he'll be "called," but not that is explicitly who or what he is.

Elohim is translated as God and god, but that does not mean that only when it is used for the Father, it is God, and when for Jesus, it is god. This is nothing but theological bias, and not what the Bible actually says

What the Bible actually says is open to interpretation, but what is explicit in the text should inform any good interpretation. For example, Isaiah 9:6 says he would be "called" mighty God. So let's find where Jesus was ever called that; it doesn't exist after all.

Now, we have options as to how to overcome this because we don't want failed prophecies or contradictions in the Bible. We can take a closer look at the translation and see if there are other plausible renderings that would correct the problem with Jesus never actually being called "mighty God" in scripture.

There is absolutely no reason Biblically, to translate êl Gibbôr, when used in 9:6, for Jesus, as Mighty hero, but, when used for the Father, it must be Mighty God.

Ezekiel 32:21 proves that the plural form of êl gibbôr (ḡib·bō·w·rîm ’ê·lê) doesn't necessitate a translation to "mighty God." It can be translated like that depending on the context if it is talking about God or a god, but when it's talking about a human who isn't God, like Jesus, then an alternative translation is better. Here's how the REV translates Isaiah 9:6.

For a child will be born to us,
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will call his name
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero,
Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.

Honesty is crucial in our correct understanding of what God the Holy Spirit has Written through the writers of the Bible

Agreed.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I think you meant Jesus the Christ as God the Creator Not Jesus the Son of man a creation a prophet sent as a apostle .

God is not a Jewish man . that would seem to follow be a wile of the father of lies . worship the dying creation more than the life giving Creator .Called the wrath of God

There's this fun and yet atonishing fact you'll never get from any English translation - Jesus is often called and referre to as a stone - "the stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone". "Stone", eben in hebrew, is a compound word - ab and ben, which means father and son. So literally, Jesus is father and son in one. Also, Jesus had an earthly occupation before his ministry, which was stonemasonry and construction, not carpentry.

 

[SolaScriptura]

John 1:1 doesn't speak of the deity of Jesus

how do you translate, "καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος", in John 1:1; and "θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς θεὸς", in verse 18?

 

[Mark51]

Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

In Revelation 3:14, Jesus describes Himself as “ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ”, which is, “the Beginning of the Creation of God”. “ἀρχὴ”, here does not mean, “the first to be Created”, which is what the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the words to mean, as they corrupt the English here, to read, “the beginning of the creation by God”. Notice how they misrepresent what the Greek says, by inserting “BY” God, to make Jesus Christ the first-created. John did not write, “τοῦ ὑπό θεοῦ”, which would require the Greek preposition “ὑπό”, to be used. Interesting that in this same chapter of Revelation, in verses 1 and 12, as elsewhere, John writes, “τοῦ θεοῦ”, as he does in verse 14. And yet in these places, the JW's translate into English, “of God”, which is what the genitive case means!If “ἀρχὴ” here means “first to be created”, then there would have been no need to insert in English, the preposition “BY”. The Greek lexicon by the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of the word, “ἀρχὴ”, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which means that Jesus Christ here says that He IS The Creator.

Creation, and all instructions, is by God Almighty. (Genesis 1:27; 2Matthew 19:4) Jesus was created first of all creation. (John 1:10; 17:5, 24; Colossians 1:16; Revelation 3:4) Jesus did become a “master worker” (Proverbs 8:30) and all other things were made or spoken through him. (Genesis 1:26) For example: A secretary takes dictation from the manager/supervisor and then retypes the content into a letter. Who actually wrote the letter? Likewise, your participation on a Christian site-for example-does not make you the author of the contents of your posts-unless it is your opinion. The information/knowledge that you are sharing did not originate with you. You, simply, are a “tool” that is promoting God’s word. Furthermore, what I post is not of my own originality. All that I know-spiritual-was learned. I am a “tool” also. Such was the same with Jesus.-Matthew 11:27; 28:18; John 7:16-18; 14:10.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus was created first of all creation

This is the GREATEST BLASPHEMY!!!

 

[reddogs]

heretically means "unorthodox" and "error"

Yes but they don't burn you at the stake for those things.....

 

[CherubRam]

The Catholics altered the scriptures to give power to the Pope, whom according to them is Christ incarnate.

(By him, Through him, For him.)

KJ21
For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him.


Christ said that God did the creating.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:21
So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Genesis 5:1
This is the written account of Adam’s family line. When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God.

Deuteronomy 4:32
Ask now about the former days, long before your time, from the day God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything so great as this ever happened, or has anything like it ever been heard of?

Ecclesiastes 7:29
This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”

Mark 13:19
because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

1 Timothy 4:3
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Timothy 4:4
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,



Matthew 19:4
“Haven’t you read,” He replied, “that He who created them in the beginning made them male and female ,”

Mark 10:6
But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female.

 

[CherubRam]

This is the GREATEST BLASPHEMY!!!

Christ is a created being according to the bible

Proverbs 8:23
I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
Christ was formed in the beginning of creation by Yahwah.

Christ Pre-existed.
John 6:41
At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”

John 6:42
They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’ ?”

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

John 8:58
“Very truly I tell you,” Yahshua answered, “before Abraham was born, I existed!”

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.







Proverbs 8
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.
6 Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
(See Isaiah 11:2.)
13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have insight, I have power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers issue decrees that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and nobles—all who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my children, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not disregard it.
34 Blessed are those who listen to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;
all who hate me love death.”


"Messiah of Aaron and Israel." Priest and nation, Knowledge and wisdom.
Dead Sea Scrolls: The Damascus Rule.#6. "But God remembered the Covenant with the forefathers, and He raised from Aaron men of discernment and from Israel men of wisdom,"


The Community Rule (1QS) D.S.S. #9. "until there shall come the prophet and Messiah of Aaron and Israel".

Aaron and Israel: Aaron was the high priest of the nation Israel.


Yahshua is the Messiah of Aaron and Israel.
Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD...

Luke 2:40-47. 40. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. 47. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.

1Cor 1:30. It is because of him that you are in Messiah Yahshua, who has become for us wisdom from God...

Colossians 2
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -



Yahshua said:
John 5:44
How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?


Yahshua said:
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


Christ had no Father until Yahwah adopted him.

Beginning of days without end of life

This is how it should read:
Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, beginning of days without end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.


Yahshua was created by Yahwah our Father.
Proverbs 8:23
I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Christ is a created being according to the bible

DEMONIC HERESY!!!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yes but they don't burn you at the stake for those things.....

ANYONE who does not believe that Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are YHWH, will NOT be going to heaven!

 

[Free]

The Catholics altered the scriptures to give power to the Pope, whom according to them is Christ incarnate.

(By him, Through him, For him.)

KJ21
For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him.


Christ said that God did the creating.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:21
So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Genesis 5:1
This is the written account of Adam’s family line. When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God.

Deuteronomy 4:32
Ask now about the former days, long before your time, from the day God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything so great as this ever happened, or has anything like it ever been heard of?

Ecclesiastes 7:29
This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.”

Mark 13:19
because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

1 Timothy 4:3
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Timothy 4:4
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,



Matthew 19:4
“Haven’t you read,” He replied, “that He who created them in the beginning made them male and female ,”

Mark 10:6
But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female.

This is all fallaciously begging the question and not taking into account many other verses which show the Son's involvement in the creation of anything that has ever been created.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
...
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
...
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says...
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

All of these passages preclude Jesus from having been created. If Jesus was created, these are all false and we should throw out our Bibles.

Christ is a created being according to the bible

Proverbs 8:23
I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
Christ was formed in the beginning of creation by Yahwah.

The Son is uncreated, having existed for all eternity past just as the Father has. I don't agree that Prov 8 is talking about the preincarnate Son, given that it starts with identifying Wisdom as female, but here is a better translation:

Pro 8:23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. (ESV)

Christ Pre-existed.
John 6:41
At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”

John 6:42
They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’ ?”

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

John 8:58
“Very truly I tell you,” Yahshua answered, “before Abraham was born, I existed!”

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

The Son preexisted, but that isn't where the disagreement lies. The point is that he eternally preexisted; there never was a time when he was not.

 

[Free]

Having said that, creation is mainly said to be through Christ. When "by" is used, it means that he was the means by which everything was created. Either way, all three persons of the Trinity were involved in creation, so the language used of Jesus doesn't really matter.

 

[CherubRam]

DEMONIC HERESY!!!

You must not have read what I wrote or the scriptures I quoted.

 

[CherubRam]

This is all fallaciously begging the question and not taking into account many other verses which show the Son's involvement in the creation of anything that has ever been created.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
...
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
...
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says...
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

All of these passages preclude Jesus from having been created. If Jesus was created, these are all false and we should throw out our Bibles.


The Son is uncreated, having existed for all eternity past just as the Father has. I don't agree that Prov 8 is talking about the preincarnate Son, given that it starts with identifying Wisdom as female, but here is a better translation:

Pro 8:23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. (ESV)


The Son preexisted, but that isn't where the disagreement lies. The point is that he eternally preexisted; there never was a time when he was not.

Corrupted scriptures do not count as correct doctrine.

Without Beginning

Gods having no beginning or ending is based upon Paganism, and the circle or wreath is used to express that Pagan belief. Yahwah says that He formed before any other, and Yahshua says that he is a created being.

Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

Proverbs 8:23
I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
Christ was formed in the beginning of creation by Yahwah.

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares Yahwah, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.


This verse should read:
Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, beginning of days without end of life...