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Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

This is all fallaciously begging the question and not taking into account many other verses which show the Son's involvement in the creation of anything that has ever been created.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
...
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
...
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says...
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

All of these passages preclude Jesus from having been created. If Jesus was created, these are all false and we should throw out our Bibles.


The Son is uncreated, having existed for all eternity past just as the Father has. I don't agree that Prov 8 is talking about the preincarnate Son, given that it starts with identifying Wisdom as female, but here is a better translation:

Pro 8:23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. (ESV)


The Son preexisted, but that isn't where the disagreement lies. The point is that he eternally preexisted; there never was a time when he was not.
Pantheion, Theion, Theos, Ton.

Pantheon, Theon.



Pantheion


Greek pantheion, from pan 'all' + theion 'Divine Eternal-s' (from theos 'divine.')
From Greek aion, meaning Eternal, for an infinite amount of time Pantheion: Pan/the/ion. All Divine Eternal-s. The word “All” makes it plural.

aeon or aion or eon
1. An immeasurably long period of time. From Greek, Aion, an infinitely long time.

Greek word TON and THEON.
From the Scripture4All program. Link: Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

The Greek word "TON" is translated 1583 times as "the;" And 18 times as "the -one." It is used before nouns to mean a {certain-one-person-s,} or place, or thing. However, different translations of Greek do not always agree. That is the reason for my interpretation of John 1:1 as "the only Divine Eternal." In English the word “one” can also be translated as “only.” TON: The only. THEON: Divine Eternal.

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ton theon kai theos eimi ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) eimi (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning "the only," it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the only) before Divine Eternal?
 
Corrupted scriptures do not count as correct doctrine.
Please stop with this absurd and unsubstantiated opinion. You have made this claim numerous times and have yet to provide one bit of evidence to support it. Your personal translations based on your preconceived ideas hold no weight in theological discussions.

Pantheion, Theion, Theos, Ton.

Pantheon, Theon.



Pantheion


Greek pantheion, from pan 'all' + theion 'Divine Eternal-s' (from theos 'divine.')
From Greek aion, meaning Eternal, for an infinite amount of time Pantheion: Pan/the/ion. All Divine Eternal-s. The word “All” makes it plural.

aeon or aion or eon
1. An immeasurably long period of time. From Greek, Aion, an infinitely long time.

Greek word TON and THEON.
From the Scripture4All program. Link: Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

The Greek word "TON" is translated 1583 times as "the;" And 18 times as "the -one." It is used before nouns to mean a {certain-one-person-s,} or place, or thing. However, different translations of Greek do not always agree. That is the reason for my interpretation of John 1:1 as "the only Divine Eternal." In English the word “one” can also be translated as “only.” TON: The only. THEON: Divine Eternal.

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ton theon kai theos eimi ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) eimi (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning "the only," it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the only) before Divine Eternal?
Again, this argument based on your own personal translation has been dealt with more than once and shown to be completely without merit. Please stop using it.
 
Please stop with this absurd and unsubstantiated opinion. You have made this claim numerous times and have yet to provide one bit of evidence to support it. Your personal translations based on your preconceived ideas hold no weight in theological discussions.


Again, this argument based on your own personal translation has been dealt with more than once and shown to be completely without merit. Please stop using it.
You say I'm 100% wrong 100% of the time, and that the scriptures and documents I present are no proof.
 
You say I'm 100% wrong 100% of the time, and that the scriptures and documents I present are no proof.
Because you have yet to provide any proof; it's all been your opinion. And each time you're asked for evidence, you claim the Internet is broken. However, this is the Theology forum and this is one of the rules:

8. As this forum is for serious theological discussion, relevant verses from the Bible and/or other supporting documentation must be given to support one's assertions, especially when asked for by others.

That means scholarly support, not one's own opinions.
 
Yahwah said that He created, and Yahshua said that Yahwah created. Any scriptures that would disagree with Yahwah and Yahshua must be wrong in translation.

It is not that any translation is wrong, but your theology!

It is so very clear to those who want to know the TRUTH as in the Bible, that Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR! If anyone does not believe this, then they make God the Father to be a liar!

I am copying this from the OP.

In Hebrews chapter 1, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

“And (καί, continued address to Jesus Christ), You (σύ, singular, referring to Jesus Christ) , Lord (κύριε, vocative, used in direct address), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail” (verses 10-12)

These words are from Psalm 102:24-27, where they are used for Almighty God, Elohim:

“I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end”

Only someone who will not accept what the Bible very clearly teaches, will not accept what is spoken by God the Father, concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no way, that any honest person can read the words in Hebrews 1, which are from Psalm 102, and then say that Jesus Christ did not Create the entire Universe. One's personal "theology" will not allow them to believe this Truth.
 
Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

In Revelation 3:14, Jesus describes Himself as “ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ”, which is, “the Beginning of the Creation of God”. “ἀρχὴ”, here does not mean, “the first to be Created”, which is what the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the words to mean, as they corrupt the English here, to read, “the beginning of the creation by God”. Notice how they misrepresent what the Greek says, by inserting “BY” God, to make Jesus Christ the first-created. John did not write, “τοῦ ὑπό θεοῦ”, which would require the Greek preposition “ὑπό”, to be used. Interesting that in this same chapter of Revelation, in verses 1 and 12, as elsewhere, John writes, “τοῦ θεοῦ”, as he does in verse 14. And yet in these places, the JW's translate into English, “of God”, which is what the genitive case means!If “ἀρχὴ” here means “first to be created”, then there would have been no need to insert in English, the preposition “BY”. The Greek lexicon by the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of the word, “ἀρχὴ”, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which means that Jesus Christ here says that He IS The Creator.
This trending argument is all over the internet and it is a ploy to create a foundation for the claim that Jesus Christ is not God and John 1:1,3,14 do not really declare that He is. It is also designed to support a Trinitarian perspective.

If Jesus is not the Creator, and is not God, then all the verses in the Bible that declare the Father to be the Creator fit nicely into the Trinitarian recipe and there is no foundation for Christ being God at all.

This is a Jewish/Muslim approach to de-throning King Jesus among those who don't study Scripture.
 

Nicene Creed​

"through him all things were made"

I found this to be as stated in the NT that is "God" created by, through and for Jesus.

From whom vs through whom

No matter how many threads you create to state otherwise.
 
This trending argument is all over the internet and it is a ploy to create a foundation for the claim that Jesus Christ is not God and John 1:1,3,14 do not really declare that He is. It is also designed to support a Trinitarian perspective.

If Jesus is not the Creator, and is not God, then all the verses in the Bible that declare the Father to be the Creator fit nicely into the Trinitarian recipe and there is no foundation for Christ being God at all.

This is a Jewish/Muslim approach to de-throning King Jesus among those who don't study Scripture.

Exactly what are you on about here?
 
In alignment with John 1:1,3,14?

We agree.

You just don't like the fact that the Father explicitly claims to be the Creator in Isaiah.

Not really. Read chapter 48, especially where we have The Three distinct Persons, in verse 16, where the Speaker is Jesus Christ, the Father is Yahweh Adoni, and the Holy Spirit. Read the preceding verses, and you will see that Jesus says that He Created!

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob, and Israel my called: I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Yea, my hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spread out the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together

Jesus also says that He is "The First and The Last", which means ETERNAL, as YHWH.
 
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