Is preaching once saved always saved helpful..

[TheScarletPimpernel]

Question? Did it ever help you have Osas or the Eternal Security of the Believer preached or taught to you? Really a rhetorical question but all the same!

My beliefs in this respect, well I never used to really have any but then someone else put ideas in my head and now I think of it like this:

Rom 13:11 This also, knowing the time, that it is already time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

Our salvation is near but it isn't here yet! You have to die to actually recieve it so long as you die in the faith as a believer. As it is put:

1Co 15:42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

As Paul points out throughout his epistles, the body is the corruptible item of our being. He does not say he is of corrupt mind but that his body is a slave to sin. Thus when he cries in Romans 7 "who will set me free of this body of death" he is referring to the time when the flesh is transformed or no longer corruptible! The day of the resurection. Thus if you are "planted" or you die in the faith, once you are raised in incorruption, this is when you will be eternally secure!

While here on earth no-one can take you from the Father's hand but at the same time there is nothing to stop you from leaving! HE will never leave or forsake you but HE does not promise and cannot that you will not leave HIM. And nor can you! Example? Peter! Peter is imo everyone's best friend! He promised that he would never forsake the Lord and yet?

Thus you have to decide each morning are you going to come to the Father and pick up that there cross or your flesh and crucify it? Are you going to die to yourself this day and allow HIM to live in you? Thus whose decision is it as to whether you will eventually be "eternally secure"? Can God make that decision for us? Or the devil? No! It's our choice, our decision, our responsibility, our destiny! No-one can make you nothing, not devils, angels, powers or anything else. If yourself is all that's stopping you, crucify it!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)

Sounds like something that we have right now to me.

No man can pluck them out of my father's hand - I take that as meaning myself as well...since I am a man (well I'm a woman ;) )

I am kept by the power of God! [/quote]

 

[fiat]

Solo,
Are you then the only one graced with fullness of Truth amidst the protestant community? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but many others who have accepted Jesus and received the Holy Spirit interpret Scripture in an entirely different fashion than you do. Yes, the Holy Spirit is our guide, but we are weak vessels, easily confused and not always good listeners. That's why Christ gave us a Church that He promised to preserve from the powers of Hell.

 

[thessalonian]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)

Sounds like something that we have right now to me.

No man can pluck them out of my father's hand - I take that as meaning myself as well...since I am a man (well I'm a woman ;) )

I am kept by the power of God!

[/quote]

Nothing like a little proof texting. Yes, God has some who are destined for eternity. But this verse does not say that you know that you are one whom is being spoken of. Yes, you can know if you look at the fruits of your life and how God is working in your life. If you continue to abide in him you can know. But you discount the verses that explicitly speak of falling from grace and conditional salvation in coming to your conclucsion about this passage. Then you trump those verses with this one when you interpret them. Saying, oh they really cannot mean what the say. I've quoted plenty of such verses in this and the other OSAS thread. You just obvusacte them away.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

Question? Did it ever help you have Osas or the Eternal Security of the Believer preached or taught to you? Really a rhetorical question but all the same!

My beliefs in this respect, well I never used to really have any but then someone else put ideas in my head and now I think of it like this:

Rom 13:11 This also, knowing the time, that it is already time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

Our salvation is near but it isn't here yet! You have to die to actually recieve it so long as you die in the faith as a believer. As it is put:

1Co 15:42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

As Paul points out throughout his epistles, the body is the corruptible item of our being. He does not say he is of corrupt mind but that his body is a slave to sin. Thus when he cries in Romans 7 "who will set me free of this body of death" he is referring to the time when the flesh is transformed or no longer corruptible! The day of the resurection. Thus if you are "planted" or you die in the faith, once you are raised in incorruption, this is when you will be eternally secure!

While here on earth no-one can take you from the Father's hand but at the same time there is nothing to stop you from leaving! HE will never leave or forsake you but HE does not promise and cannot that you will not leave HIM. And nor can you! Example? Peter! Peter is imo everyone's best friend! He promised that he would never forsake the Lord and yet?

Thus you have to decide each morning are you going to come to the Father and pick up that there cross or your flesh and crucify it? Are you going to die to yourself this day and allow HIM to live in you? Thus whose decision is it as to whether you will eventually be "eternally secure"? Can God make that decision for us? Or the devil? No! It's our choice, our decision, our responsibility, our destiny! No-one can make you nothing, not devils, angels, powers or anything else. If yourself is all that's stopping you, crucify it!

Sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. Salvation comes at the instant of the born of the Spirit process.

 

[Solo]

Solo,
Are you then the only one graced with fullness of Truth amidst the protestant community? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but many others who have accepted Jesus and received the Holy Spirit interpret Scripture in an entirely different fashion than you do. Yes, the Holy Spirit is our guide, but we are weak vessels, easily confused and not always good listeners. That's why Christ gave us a Church that He promised to preserve from the powers of Hell.

Your understanding of the Church is wrong. Christ did not give us a Church. Jesus gave us the comfortor, the Holy Spirit. The Church are the called out ones, those that are the members of the body of Christ Jesus. It is not a physical institution but a spiritual one. The Churches or buildings or denominations or whatever you would like to call them are not necessarily the members of the body of Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body of Jesus Christ. No man can fill this position, in fact Jesus doesn't need a man to fill his role as head of the Church because he is alive and well. I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me, and I need that no man teach me the truths of the kingdom of God, even though God uses man to teach and preach so that others may know.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27

 

[Lewis]

You can commit apostasy though, you can leave the faith on your own free will, in such a case I don't think that you are saved anymore. Satan at one time adored God, but he left him on his own free will. There was a case of such in New York some years back, I can not remember the guy's name, but he was a preacher who left the Christian faith to become a muslim, and he denounced Christianity. People that I have talked to about it, say well he was not saved in the first place, but I don't know about that, because at one time he preached Jesus is Lord, and something made him change, and I cannot remember what he said it was.

 

[thessalonian]

Your understanding of the Church is wrong. Christ did not give us a Church. Jesus gave us the comfortor, the Holy Spirit. The Church are the called out ones, those that are the members of the body of Christ Jesus. It is not a physical institution but a spiritual one.

Why do you insist on distorting what I believe and posing false dichotomies?
You do not believe that the Church has a physical component, i.e. the physical bodies of it's members? Thus it is both a spiritual and a physical institution. A light on a hill for all to see. I most definitely do agree that anyone who has the Holy Spirit is a member of the Church, whether formally or informally. But Christ did give a physical Church. He came not just to redeem the spirit but the flesh as well. Our physical bodies are to be resurrected. The members of the Church have bodies. They make up the physical Church as well as the spiritual Church. Your denial of the physical is rooted in Manechianism.

The Churches or buildings or denominations or whatever you would like to call them are not necessarily the members of the body of Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body of Jesus Christ. No man can fill this position, in fact Jesus doesn't need a man to fill his role as head of the Church because he is alive and well. I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me, and I need that no man teach me the truths of the kingdom of God, even though God uses man to teach and preach so that others may know.

Where have I said or does the Catholic Church say the Church is a building. This is silly rhetoric that keeps getting recycled. So do you suppose that Moses was the God ordained leader in the Old Testament and spoke for God? You have much pride and are sounding much like those involved in Korah's rebellion.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13

[quote:17e5c]26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

So you remember the things that Jesus did personally? I highly doudt it since you were not there. This verse can only be taken as being spoken to the Apostles who were with him.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27

[/quote:17e5c]

So all those verses that Paul writes about teachers and teaching we can ignore? You make 2 Tim 2:2 for instance a contradiction to this verse.


2 Tim 2
[2] and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [3] Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

So these faithful men needed to be taught but you don't? Since it says "teach to others also" that means they needed to be taught, ie. entrusted. But somehow you are more than these faithful men that you do not need to be taught. You sound exactly like those in Korah's rebellion who would not listen to Moses teaching. I am not saying the Holy Spirit is not passed on to others. There are other verses that clearly indicate that. What I am saying is the part about not needing a teacher clearly only applies to Apostles. You weren't there so you couldn't possibly remember as if you were and need to be taught what happened. Very sad the way you let your pride feed upon these verses you claim apply to you as if you were there.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

Your understanding of the Church is wrong. Christ did not give us a Church. Jesus gave us the comfortor, the Holy Spirit. The Church are the called out ones, those that are the members of the body of Christ Jesus. It is not a physical institution but a spiritual one.

Why do you insist on distorting what I believe and posing false dichotomies?
You do not believe that the Church has a physical component, i.e. the physical bodies of it's members? Thus it is both a spiritual and a physical institution. A light on a hill for all to see. I most definitely do agree that anyone who has the Holy Spirit is a member of the Church, whether formally or informally. But Christ did give a physical Church. He came not just to redeem the spirit but the flesh as well. Our physical bodies are to be resurrected. The members of the Church have bodies. They make up the physical Church as well as the spiritual Church. Your denial of the physical is rooted in Manechianism.

[quote:e9711]The Churches or buildings or denominations or whatever you would like to call them are not necessarily the members of the body of Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body of Jesus Christ. No man can fill this position, in fact Jesus doesn't need a man to fill his role as head of the Church because he is alive and well. I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me, and I need that no man teach me the truths of the kingdom of God, even though God uses man to teach and preach so that others may know.

Where have I said or does the Catholic Church say the Church is a building. This is silly rhetoric that keeps getting recycled. So do you suppose that Moses was the God ordained leader in the Old Testament and spoke for God? You have much pride and are sounding much like those involved in Korah's rebellion.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

So you remember the things that Jesus did personally? I highly doudt it since you were not there. This verse can only be taken as being spoken to the Apostles who were with him.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27

So all those verses that Paul writes about teachers and teaching we can ignore? You make 2 Tim 2:2 for instance a contradiction to this verse.


2 Tim 2
[2] and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [3] Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

So these faithful men needed to be taught but you don't? Since it says "teach to others also" that means they needed to be taught, ie. entrusted. But somehow you are more than these faithful men that you do not need to be taught. You sound exactly like those in Korah's rebellion who would not listen to Moses teaching. I am not saying the Holy Spirit is not passed on to others. There are other verses that clearly indicate that. What I am saying is the part about not needing a teacher clearly only applies to Apostles. You weren't there so you couldn't possibly remember as if you were and need to be taught what happened. Very sad the way you let your pride feed upon these verses you claim apply to you as if you were there.

Blessings[/quote:e9711]
Choosing between you teaching me or the Holy Spirit, I will choose the Holy Spirit. You have too much baggage to teach the truth of God. Your perception is mightily warped to the truths of God's word. Perhaps your flesh has entirely too much control over your spiritual; if you have a spiritual. You haven't shown me much of any spiritual truth in any of your posts as yet. Perhaps you should stick with the Roman Catholics; they love being told what to do by someone in a powerful position.

 

[Lewis]

Anyone care to give me their thoughts on Apostasy in the post I put in this thread a couple above this one. I really want to know what you think about it, as far as once saved, always saved.

 

[thessalonian]

Solo,

Your last post was rather uninteligible and attributed to you things I said. I seem to recall you accusing someone of being dishonest for posting such things. I won't be that silly. Seems you have difficulty with the 2 tim 2:2 question or you would have answered it. Instead you chose the personal attack and belittle route. Good job.

 

[Solo]

You can commit apostasy though, you can leave the faith on your own free will, in such a case I don't think that you are saved anymore. Satan at one time adored God, but he left him on his own free will. There was a case of such in New York some years back, I can not remember the guy's name, but he was a preacher who left the Christian faith to become a muslim, and he denounced Christianity. People that I have talked to about it, say well he was not saved in the first place, but I don't know about that, because at one time he preached Jesus is Lord, and something made him change, and I cannot remember what he said it was.

There will be a falling away from sound doctrine as those that teach the word of God water down the truth. Much as the Galatians fell back into their old Jewish way of doing things perverting the grace of the gospel, many churches today subvert the truth of God and turn the truth of the gospel into doctrines of devils; aka the Roman Catholic Church. One can not compare satan's fall to mankind's salvation. Satan is a spiritual being that is immortal and must be judged according to the laws of the Kingdom of heaven prior to man's creation. Man will be judged according to his sin. If a man is a sinner, which all men are, then he will pay the debt for his sin, death. Because of what Jesus did on the cross, a man who is born again will be resurrected with the same kind of body as Jesus was resurrected into. All those who are born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Some believers can stop living according to the word by walking in the flesh, but their born again creature, the new creature that was formed at the rebirth experience will live on in eternity with the savior. There is no way for that which was born of God, born again man, to return to the depths of hell from whence he was saved.

If you or I were responsible for our own salvation because of what we did or do, then you and I could lose our salvation; but the salvation of God given to man, is a free gift, an act of grace, not of works lest any man should boast. God gave his free gift of life to all of those who have faith in him.

 

[Lewis]

One can not compare satan's fall to mankind's salvation.

Yes I know, I should have used another example, the only point that I was using with that, the point of free will. But i should have used another example. Thank you very much Solo.

 

[John the Baptist]

satan a once saved created being is immortal?? Scripture please? ---John

 

[Solo]

satan a once saved created being is immortal?? Scripture please? ---John

What was satan saved from if he was once saved? Scripture Please!

 

[John the Baptist]

satan a once saved created being is immortal?? Scripture please? ---John

What was satan saved from if he was once saved? Scripture Please!

The post of yours is a non/saved jesuit tactic! Avoid the question with another question! :roll:

The question you avoided? it was the one that you posted that stated that satan has immortality! It was asked of you where in God's Word does one find such a statement???

I was just wondering about your being Born Again in the first place is all???? Revelation 22:18-19 & Ecclesiastes 3:14 Or can one not say that he goofed? (and of course the King James is much more clearly stated, huh?) ---John

 

[John the Baptist]

First: All sin is not the sin unto death! See 1 John 5:16-17. But, 'Christian' mankind must first have a starting point with the 'earnest' of the Holy Spirit given. And before the 'fall' (heaven included) ALL were perfect with NO sin. These were to be tested! (tree in the 'midst' of the garden) Even this fall, was not the sin unto death yet. But in the 'finished' end, mankind would have never lived again, without the everlasting Gospel plan of Revelation 14:6.! So in this sense, it was the sin unto death. (if one does not believe in the Word of 'Everlasting Gospel. huh?) See if the remarks below help?

The first example is found in Gen. 4:6-7 for the sin unto death. (on earth) It was the Word (Christ) speaking to Cain. There was no record of Cain not being faithful up to this point? But here we see a 'mature' professed Christian person talking to the Master face to face. (or at least the fullness of Word to word) Remember that he was saved by the offering of the Lamb sacrifice 'in Faith' up until this time. (think of Acts 2, Early Rain & also the promised 'Latter Rain'?)

Notice the above in this setting of James 1:15? Any & all sin is sin, yet, it is not the 'FINISHED' [END] at the START! Got that?? When one makes a MATURE DECISION to violate the Word of God, this is moving towards the (going towards the full cup) sin unto death. We are 'LED' of the Holy Spirit when converted, (Born Again) yet, the FREEDOM of choice is always ours to use! If we steal?? then, we sin. This is still not the sin unto death! Yet, if we steal again & again, we are grieving the one who is trying to lead us! See Romans. 8:14. And finally He can convict us no more! It is the same with any of the ten. See James 2:8-12.

Now: One who is a MATURE Christian does not apply this to just any sinning person. In other words, God includes all humans regardless of if they never claim Christ, or, if they have confessed Christ. When Maturity comes, either way, the person is then & only then saved or lost. The worse of offenders of the Master's Word are [professed] Ministers! (see Luke 12:47-48) Not only do they pass the boundaries of their probation, but they will be judged by far the worse in hells punishment! This is called the sin of OMISSION. (THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE, OR ARE NOT DOING) Their full cup comes at the passing of the boundaries of the Holy Spirit's trying to 'lead' them to get them to do a 'correcting' of KNOWN FALSE DOCTRINE & OPENLY DONE AND UN/REPENTED SIN IN THEIR DENOMINATIONS! Such as Sunday sacredness, or the Breaking of any one of the ten commandments. And in the case of the last true Virgin Fold, it is in the lacking of the True Agape love for Christ to 'clean up the folds 'open' filth that is clearly seen and that is daily openly documented! The Shaking or Falling Away has found them, as a 'fold', fallen away! (by the free choice of omission)

Read Gen. 6:3 And you will see that the Holy Spirits work is to [STRIVE WITH MAN!] (both the saved, once saved, & the never saved) Yet, it is God that says that.. "MY SPIRIT WILL NOT ALWAYS STRIVE WITH MAN". When MATURE REBELLION comes, it is not possible for God to reach us! See Hebrews. 6:6. If you read ONLY the [POSITIVES] first, you will see that these one were at one time MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST!

Peter in 'Inspiration' speaks the Words VERY CLEAR! See 2 Peter 2:19-22.
Verse 19 starts out with these ones 'identification'! They PROMISE THEM LIBERTY. That is what 'Once Saved Always Saved' bottom line is! Then Peter tells us that it is not truth! The 'Word' of course is seen in verse 20, that of being OVERCOME. (mature cup, shut door) Again right back to James 1:15, 1 John 5:16-17 & Cain's MATURE dis/obedience.
And again: What does the Virgin Fold teach?? Their Church manual is not the Word of God. Yet, all reformers are eventually 'keyed' out of the church in time, (*Not OPEN SINNERS!) by using their church manual as the devil's tool of force! ... unless they leave freely because of Christ's CALL of Revelation 18:4 to come out of her or be a Partaker of her sins in the first place? Yet, one constantly hears that of promising them Liberty.. stay in the Church, for the Church is going through!!

The simple test for us is.. "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS". (All of them! see Isaiah. 5:3 & verse 7)
In John 15 Christ told us an ETERNAL TRUTH, (other worlds as well!) He says.. "WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING". But, if we do keep His commandments, how can we be, but WITHOUT HIM???

Hope this helps? Psalms 19:13 is another good 'insight' for understanding what presumptuous OPEN sin endangers! We might never know how close David & Saul (Paul) came to this ending? And another?? Last one :fade-in:!
King Saul was given the Holy Spirit of God. And latter on the Holy Spirit was removed from King Saul. Saul had made an excellent start! Yet his FINISH was MATURE with the 'sin unto death'. Yet as stated above, it is the ones who know to do rightly, and do it not, that are in the most immediate danger of loosing their salvation!!:

---John

 

[John the Baptist]

Subject: satan has immortality???

SAVE FOR FUTURE

"There will be a falling away from sound doctrine as those that teach the word of God water down the truth. Much as the Galatians fell back into their old Jewish way of doing things perverting the grace of the gospel, many churches today subvert the truth of God and turn the truth of the gospel into doctrines of devils; aka the Roman Catholic Church. One can not compare satan's fall to mankind's salvation. Satan is a spiritual being that is immortal and must be judged according to the laws of the Kingdom of heaven prior to man's creation. Man will be judged according to his sin. If a man is a sinner, which all men are, then he will pay the debt for his sin, death. Because of what Jesus did on the cross, a man who is born again will be resurrected with the same kind of body as Jesus was resurrected into. All those who are born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Some believers can stop living according to the word by walking in the flesh, but their born again creature, the new creature that was formed at the rebirth experience will live on in eternity with the savior. There is no way for that which was born of God, born again man, to return to the depths of hell from whence he was saved. .."

____________

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:14-16

 

[Solo]

[quote="John the Baptist":c293f]satan a once saved created being is immortal?? Scripture please? ---John

What was satan saved from if he was once saved? Scripture Please!

The post of yours is a non/saved jesuit tactic! Avoid the question with another question! :roll:

The question you avoided? it was the one that you posted that stated that satan has immortality! It was asked of you where in God's Word does one find such a statement???

I was just wondering about your being Born Again in the first place is all???? Revelation 22:18-19 & Ecclesiastes 3:14 Or can one not say that he goofed? (and of course the King James is much more clearly stated, huh?) ---John [/quote:c293f]

Answer the question John, what was satan saved from? You are declaring him a once saved created being. Do you suppose that created angels die or are they immortal?

I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and his work on the cross. It is only because of believing in him that I was born of the Spirit of God, or as Jesus stated it, born again. Now that that is settled and you can quiet your soul about it, answer my question as to why satan is a once saved created being. I am beginning to doubt your ability to understand plain english without attacking a person with some ad hominem because you refuse to debate in a loving way.

PS Jesus asked questions of unbelievers and children of the devil whenever he was asked questions that he perceived as being an attack. I did the same thing. If Jesus was an unsaved Jesuit pulling a tactic by asking a question, then I am too.

 

[von]

Lewis- for once i would have to somewhat agree with the Catholics. You can not be saved and continue to live in sin.Here are werses for you. Luke 9:62...Gal 1:6...Gal. 4:9...Heb.10:38...2 Pet.2:20...Rev. 2:4...Rev. 3:21...Rev.:19. No, we are not perfect and we are not without sin but we can not live a life of sinfullness and still make Heaven our home. There are lots of stories in the Bible that are examples of this. I think one was previously stated in this thread. The Bible says without holiness no man shall see God and He wasn't talking to sinners since sinners are not holy.