I really don't think you've studied prophet. You're more likely to post something from "got questions.'
Sorry.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
John MacArthur: Continualists do not exist, everyone is a Cessationist or Inventionist
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
Sorry.
Wow! Yal can be mean.
He just asked a simple question
Its difficult to interpret your answer, can't read minds to uncover the missing words.
But I'll try.
You don't think I can recognize a prophet when I see one, or I would acknowledge you are a prophet.
"Got Questions" must disagree with your prophetic teachings often, you definitely don't like them.
Did I get that right?
Why couldn't you answer? Do you believe yourself to be a prophet or not?
Calling yourself "jeremiah1five" implies you do:
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jer. 1:5 NKJ)
Do you believe God made you "prophet to the nations?"
How is that working out for you?
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Ok. But then you say this .
How did you come by this decision ?
Is it wrong to think that God would prefer to be efficient in His expenditure of effort? Nature seeks to evolve more and more efficient mechanisms for energy transfer, and nature is the handiwork of an intelligent God, so wouldn't that imply that therefore, the reason we no longer see supernatural miracles is simply because God can work more effectively in people's lives without them, and we are supposed to be operating by faith without needing to rely on supernatural miracles, anyway.
As we near the final battle, it is likely that while the Holy Spirit moves among men, pouring out visions and dreams, the next set of supernatural miracles we likely see will be the two witnesses calling down fire on the enemies of God as they give testimony against the Anti-Christ. After all, it does say that there is a war in heaven and the devil is cast down to the earth at the end, during which time he wreaks absolute havoc right before Armageddon, if my memory serves. Sorry, it's been a long time since I've really studied eschatology in depth.
Also, wouldn't the argument that tongues is simply self-generated mean that those people are blaspheming the name of God? That's what I've always thought "Thou Shalt Not Take the Name of Thy Lord God In Vain" means--don't be like the Balaam and represent God saying something He did not say. It makes a mockery of actual supernatural events, if and when they occur.
As we near the final battle, it is likely that while the Holy Spirit moves among men, pouring out visions and dreams, the next set of supernatural miracles we likely see will be the two witnesses calling down fire on the enemies of God as they give testimony against the Anti-Christ. After all, it does say that there is a war in heaven and the devil is cast down to the earth at the end, during which time he wreaks absolute havoc right before Armageddon, if my memory serves. Sorry, it's been a long time since I've really studied eschatology in depth.
Also, wouldn't the argument that tongues is simply self-generated mean that those people are blaspheming the name of God? That's what I've always thought "Thou Shalt Not Take the Name of Thy Lord God In Vain" means--don't be like the Balaam and represent God saying something He did not say. It makes a mockery of actual supernatural events, if and when they occur.
In all my thoughts I have had about God I have never thought about "His expenditure of effort" as you put it , and I wondered why haven't I ? When people speak of God I have heard the word Omnipotent used to describe God , sounds kinda powerful doesn't it . I have read verses that describe God as LORD God Almighty . The word expenditure would suggest God is using up His energy , seriously Just_Michael ? Let us read a verse in Isaiah Ch. 40 .
Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
God's energy supply is endless so "expenditure of effort" would mean nothing to Him . More suggested reading for you Job Chapter 38 . What an awesome God we serve !
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
God's omnipotence has nothing to do with His desire for order. God is not the author of confusion. God can be supernaturally omnipotent all day long, but that still leaves us with the question of why He doesn't just use His omnipotence to bend time and space, and be done with it all at once?
Therefore, there must be a reason why He doesn't beyond "for the glory of God." It is my belief that God chooses to use mundane ways to care for those He loves simply because His will is that we believe in Him without Him just roasting the front lawn in a pillar of fire to compel that belief. In that way, His efforts would be more efficient because it sifts those who truly believe from those who pay lip service, whereas a pillar of fire would be sure to win everyone over, who would then go all Hebrew and start whining about why God doesn't come down and do all their manual labor and hey, maybe we should all just go back to Egypt...
God is obviously a master engineer. One look under the hood of the universe is enough to prove that. Machines operate more efficiently when there is harmony, and that is what God is doing--striving for harmony between mankind and Himself so that there is that energy transfer again--the Holy Spirit makes its home within us as the temple of God, and there are ripples in our life that spread out and touch others that would be called the fruits. The fruits of indwelling of demons, however, would be the exact opposite: strife, envy, disharmony, and worse. "From making of sport, they come to doing of mischief." (from Thomas Fuller)
We are going to go in circles I see . Let me try a question .
Are you Just_Michael a cessationist as far as the Gifts of The Holy Spirit are concerned ?
I was never given an opportunity to become a cessationist .
I'm not sure. I know that's not a satisfying answer--it isn't for me, either. I don't think I've really ever received any supernatural gifts beyond my occasional precog dreams (which are really subjective in that I can't prove I dreamed something objectively). I know we don't see people raising the dead anymore. We don't see people bi-locating. We don't see fire getting called down and walking on water or other miracles.
Every single miracle seems to rely upon mundane mechanisms to operate. I don't think it discounts the gifts of the Spirit, just makes them exceedingly rare. I also know that it says to misrepresent God is to call down His curse, so people going around claiming to be "prophets" are likely not divinely-inspired. Even Billy Graham never healed the sick or turned water into wine.
That leads me to draw two conclusions:
Either, "miracles" have been built up into mythological status despite having been mundane in origin and simply the product of ignorance of medicines/physics/etc. This explanation is not satisyfing at all, to me.
Or the Holy Spirit is no longer pouring out the gifts, and that in turns begs the question why?
I do not buy into the modern-day "prophets" or the prosperity gospel pushers--looking at you, Joel Osteen. Prayer is not "magic" that causes flashy supernatural effects to any degree that I've seen. Everything can be explained away by the physical sciences.
However, that does not mean that God's glory is diminished in any capacity because had He not created the physical conditions in the first place, no "miracle" would have been able to occur at all. For me, then, I guess I look at miracles as the inexplicable confluence of coincidence and circumstance, where probabilities say that there is only a remote chance of x happening, and despite the odds, it somehow happens. Call it the stars aligning, call it a lucky break, call it fortune. Those are the only miracles I have ever seen.
Every single miracle seems to rely upon mundane mechanisms to operate. I don't think it discounts the gifts of the Spirit, just makes them exceedingly rare. I also know that it says to misrepresent God is to call down His curse, so people going around claiming to be "prophets" are likely not divinely-inspired. Even Billy Graham never healed the sick or turned water into wine.
That leads me to draw two conclusions:
Either, "miracles" have been built up into mythological status despite having been mundane in origin and simply the product of ignorance of medicines/physics/etc. This explanation is not satisyfing at all, to me.
Or the Holy Spirit is no longer pouring out the gifts, and that in turns begs the question why?
I do not buy into the modern-day "prophets" or the prosperity gospel pushers--looking at you, Joel Osteen. Prayer is not "magic" that causes flashy supernatural effects to any degree that I've seen. Everything can be explained away by the physical sciences.
However, that does not mean that God's glory is diminished in any capacity because had He not created the physical conditions in the first place, no "miracle" would have been able to occur at all. For me, then, I guess I look at miracles as the inexplicable confluence of coincidence and circumstance, where probabilities say that there is only a remote chance of x happening, and despite the odds, it somehow happens. Call it the stars aligning, call it a lucky break, call it fortune. Those are the only miracles I have ever seen.
I am glad you did answer ! I get crickets on some of my questions .
A dream of the future or just a dream of your future would be a Gift of word of knowledge . I have had a few of those .
You are painting with a broad brush with the word "we" . You can't speak for everyone .
Exceedingly rare ? How would you know ?
It is not so much the prayer that it is God's answer to the prayer that would be a supernatural effect .
Not hardly .
Have I seen a miracle ? Yes .
My daughter had a protruding hernia when she was a toddler . The doctor said my daughter would need surgery . We laid hands on her and prayed for her at a church service . The next morning the hernia was gone
! The doctor did not understand why the hernia was gone .
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Heb. 13:8 NKJ)Ok. But then you say this .
How did you come by this decision ?
But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. (Heb. 7:24 NKJ)
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. (Jas. 1:17 NKJ)
Good verses ! But I don't see the word Bible
. Maybe you could enlist Hercule Poirot to look for your answer .
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And God can do anything but fail, lie, and stop being God.
I don't recall what you are referring to, so I'll take a guess its 2 Thessalonians:Good verses ! But I don't see the word Bible
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. (2 Thess. 2:9-3:1 NKJ)
"Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (Jn. 17:17 NKJ)
The New Testament was still being written when Paul wrote this, the apostolic traditions still in verbal word and a few epistles. While it is "unhistorical" to use the equation "Bible=Truth", the "Nascent Bible" is in the text, Paul refers to it as "the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle."
That is "the Truth" the TARES refused to believe.
"TARES" also not in this context, but that is who Paul is talking about. Paul contrasts them to believers.
In the End Time their rebellion against Bible Truth will cause them to leave:
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. (1 Jn. 2:18-26 NKJ)
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There is only one truth I know for certain, and that is that I know nothing at all. I love looking at the mechanics of the universe and being amazed at how little I know becauses it means I have that much more yet to learn. It's like a never-ending cup of coffee that never loses its flavor.
The ancient Greeks so prized that introspective awareness and knowledge that they carved it into the lintels of their most holy site at the oracle of Delphi. "Gnothi Seauton" means know thyself, and to do so is to know God. It was a shadow of things to come and the revelation of Christ in that the Holy Spirit requires us to know Him inwardly, and therefore, better know ourselves and what our human hearts are capable of.
Once we acknowledge that we are imperfect beings compared to a divine perfection, we begin to realize our need for a savior. Knowing that we need a savior leaves us longing for something that sparks that inner change and a desire to strive against the inevitable that humans otherwise just flow towards.
What direction is that? Why, towards satisfying the self, and ultimately putting ourselves on that path that ends at the gate with "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter" written above it. The heart is a lying, greedy, manipulative organ that will never be satisfied and always want more, because it is in its nature. When Christ enters someone's heart, it quiets that avarice enough for us to begin the cultivation process, but it's not just mere acceptance. It is an act of work that is required of us to continue that momentum of change.
Did your seed fall on hard, rocky ground, and sprouted up, only to wither away in the heat of the sun? Well, then I guess you'd better go get a pickaxe and break that stuff up. The sun and rain will fall regardless, bringing the blessings of God to the good and evil alike. It is up to us to till the soil and ensure that the seed that continues to fall all through our lives finds fertile and freshly tilled soil waiting for it. It's as simple as we till the soil, God plants the seed in His time, and it grows accordingly. We only have to sit and wait for the hardest part of the work to be done by the Holy Spirit, and then nurture that which is left in our care.
The cessation of the more supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit is therefore a non-issue--it's not up to me to try to force the gifts, Christ commanded us to wait patiently. Not everyone will receive the same rewards and gifts, either, but that's okay, too, because where one believer falls short, another will pick up the slack and fill in so that none are overburdened or incapable.
I have not witnessed supernatural events that I could not explain by the magic of science. Does that diminsh the glory of God because it's not something I cannot explain? No. The series of events that lead up to an event that is miraculous is in itself a miracle. How many probabilities had to line up just so in order for an event to come to pass? Millions of cogs turning in harmony to produce that exact moment in time is itself astonishing when you consider all the ways things could happen in which the event (whatever it is) may not have occurred. That, to me, is part of the mystery. It's enough for me to be satisfied that there's more at play than meets the eye.
Our brains are a finite machine of near-infinite complexity, and we're contained within the universe, so therefore, it's extremely difficult to perceive what is outside of that. It's like trying to see the forest from the trees. It's not until we're outside the body (and present with the Lord) that we can then perceive and comprehend the totality of the grand design, and the glimpses I've caught have lead me to believe that it will be more amazing than anything I can conceive of, and likely nothing like I can conceive of, too. The hows and whys of God's actions, the mechanics of why He chooses to act one way and not another, is endlessly fascinating to me, and is, to me, a gift of Spirit because it offers a breadth of vision and scope of comprehension that I could not arrive at by my own logical deductions and introspection. That makes God worthy of glory and praise.
The ancient Greeks so prized that introspective awareness and knowledge that they carved it into the lintels of their most holy site at the oracle of Delphi. "Gnothi Seauton" means know thyself, and to do so is to know God. It was a shadow of things to come and the revelation of Christ in that the Holy Spirit requires us to know Him inwardly, and therefore, better know ourselves and what our human hearts are capable of.
Once we acknowledge that we are imperfect beings compared to a divine perfection, we begin to realize our need for a savior. Knowing that we need a savior leaves us longing for something that sparks that inner change and a desire to strive against the inevitable that humans otherwise just flow towards.
What direction is that? Why, towards satisfying the self, and ultimately putting ourselves on that path that ends at the gate with "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter" written above it. The heart is a lying, greedy, manipulative organ that will never be satisfied and always want more, because it is in its nature. When Christ enters someone's heart, it quiets that avarice enough for us to begin the cultivation process, but it's not just mere acceptance. It is an act of work that is required of us to continue that momentum of change.
Did your seed fall on hard, rocky ground, and sprouted up, only to wither away in the heat of the sun? Well, then I guess you'd better go get a pickaxe and break that stuff up. The sun and rain will fall regardless, bringing the blessings of God to the good and evil alike. It is up to us to till the soil and ensure that the seed that continues to fall all through our lives finds fertile and freshly tilled soil waiting for it. It's as simple as we till the soil, God plants the seed in His time, and it grows accordingly. We only have to sit and wait for the hardest part of the work to be done by the Holy Spirit, and then nurture that which is left in our care.
The cessation of the more supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit is therefore a non-issue--it's not up to me to try to force the gifts, Christ commanded us to wait patiently. Not everyone will receive the same rewards and gifts, either, but that's okay, too, because where one believer falls short, another will pick up the slack and fill in so that none are overburdened or incapable.
I have not witnessed supernatural events that I could not explain by the magic of science. Does that diminsh the glory of God because it's not something I cannot explain? No. The series of events that lead up to an event that is miraculous is in itself a miracle. How many probabilities had to line up just so in order for an event to come to pass? Millions of cogs turning in harmony to produce that exact moment in time is itself astonishing when you consider all the ways things could happen in which the event (whatever it is) may not have occurred. That, to me, is part of the mystery. It's enough for me to be satisfied that there's more at play than meets the eye.
Our brains are a finite machine of near-infinite complexity, and we're contained within the universe, so therefore, it's extremely difficult to perceive what is outside of that. It's like trying to see the forest from the trees. It's not until we're outside the body (and present with the Lord) that we can then perceive and comprehend the totality of the grand design, and the glimpses I've caught have lead me to believe that it will be more amazing than anything I can conceive of, and likely nothing like I can conceive of, too. The hows and whys of God's actions, the mechanics of why He chooses to act one way and not another, is endlessly fascinating to me, and is, to me, a gift of Spirit because it offers a breadth of vision and scope of comprehension that I could not arrive at by my own logical deductions and introspection. That makes God worthy of glory and praise.
Learning from "the mechanics of the universe" is the opposite of learning by introspection. While the first offers infinite potential, the second is limited by your experience and thoughts, subjective information most likely as wrong as when you started.
God reveals Himself to us, hence the Incarnation and Bible. Otherwise, we'd be in the dark like the Greeks.
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Were you there when you were born again ?
Brother Alfred Persson , we go around and around on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit . How I would like to sit across a table from you and tell you what my life is like . There are many things that have happened of a revealing of God's supernatural power (and yes it is things I have read of in the bible) I will NOT share on the internet , maybe it will come time to in the future .
Or...it's simply that God gave us physcial faculties to look at the mechanics of the universe, and then conduct introspection on what we have seen as we internalize it. Introspection is based on external knowledge; therefore, if your "learned" wisdom is wrong, your introspection will be wrong. Since as Christians we start with the Bible, our learned wisdom is that of God, whereby we then attempt to make sense out of what we see. Introspection doesn't just spring into being; it must be triggered by external knowledge being internalized.
This method has worked for countless scientists like Neils Bohr, Isaac Newton, and Einstein himself, as well as David Bohm, Thomas Townsend Brown and Nikola Tesla.
None of that discounts the existence of the supernatural or the existence of the Gifts of the Spirit, or why there is a lack of such objective experiences. And what do I mean by a lack of objective experiences? I am reminded of the dozens of people who gather in UFO hotspots to watch as lights dance about the sky in a way that violates are deepest understanding of physics. That is objective and undeniable. It is on the same level as Jesus walking across water in front of thousands of people gathered on the shore of Galilee. Those are the supernatural gifts we no longer see--unless you've seen someone walking on water and you're just not telling us...?
Such a day is coming, however, when we're all going to see signs that are objectively and undeniably supernatural, but that still doesn't mean it cannot be explained by science; it just cannot be explained by our current understanding of science. God's mathematics and formulae used to create the universe are bound to be so incomprehensible to us that it sounds like foolishness, but His truth is undeniable. I was created by God with the curiosity and love of discovery specifically so that I could gloriy God each time more is revealed to me through my five senses and interpreted through the wisdom of the Word, and I love learning new things about the universe because it is endlessly fascinating to me.
I'm sure the reason why we don't see more objectively supernatural gifts is multi-faceted because that's how all of nature operates. The leaf doesn't just provide chlorophyll, it provides shade for the roots, food for bugs, fertilizer for the soil, and oxygen to the phloem, and likely dozens of more benefits as well. Therefore, God must also have multiple reasons for doing what He does in His own time that are beyond our immediate understanding. God, being a master engineer, would strive for efficiency in energy transfer--getting the most done with the least amount of effort, despite being omnipotent. Just because one is omnipotent doesn't mean one is a profligate expender of energy. We are created in the image of God, and it is likely that just as we like to get the most bang for our buck out of every moment of the day, God likely does, too, and that's where we get it from. So the reason we don't see supernatural gifts any more is likely for a variety of reasons, not simply because the Holy Spirit no longer needs to manifest thusly, and we'll have to wait for the reason until He deigns to tell us (and He will in time because God is not the author of confusion). All things work towards the good will of God.
Now, if you can show me anything unbiblical in the above, I will gladly seek understanding and correction. However, this is what I have been able to deduce in the course of my life, and I'm humbly glad to be able to say, I'm not finished learning yet because the majesty of God is infinite.
Edit: Being born again is an internal, and entirely subjective experience. Otherwise, please post the video of someone being baptized and something supernatural occuring. Yes, it's a miracle to the one receiving it, but it's not like calling down fire from heaven to torch the Baal priests' altar.
This method has worked for countless scientists like Neils Bohr, Isaac Newton, and Einstein himself, as well as David Bohm, Thomas Townsend Brown and Nikola Tesla.
None of that discounts the existence of the supernatural or the existence of the Gifts of the Spirit, or why there is a lack of such objective experiences. And what do I mean by a lack of objective experiences? I am reminded of the dozens of people who gather in UFO hotspots to watch as lights dance about the sky in a way that violates are deepest understanding of physics. That is objective and undeniable. It is on the same level as Jesus walking across water in front of thousands of people gathered on the shore of Galilee. Those are the supernatural gifts we no longer see--unless you've seen someone walking on water and you're just not telling us...?
Such a day is coming, however, when we're all going to see signs that are objectively and undeniably supernatural, but that still doesn't mean it cannot be explained by science; it just cannot be explained by our current understanding of science. God's mathematics and formulae used to create the universe are bound to be so incomprehensible to us that it sounds like foolishness, but His truth is undeniable. I was created by God with the curiosity and love of discovery specifically so that I could gloriy God each time more is revealed to me through my five senses and interpreted through the wisdom of the Word, and I love learning new things about the universe because it is endlessly fascinating to me.
I'm sure the reason why we don't see more objectively supernatural gifts is multi-faceted because that's how all of nature operates. The leaf doesn't just provide chlorophyll, it provides shade for the roots, food for bugs, fertilizer for the soil, and oxygen to the phloem, and likely dozens of more benefits as well. Therefore, God must also have multiple reasons for doing what He does in His own time that are beyond our immediate understanding. God, being a master engineer, would strive for efficiency in energy transfer--getting the most done with the least amount of effort, despite being omnipotent. Just because one is omnipotent doesn't mean one is a profligate expender of energy. We are created in the image of God, and it is likely that just as we like to get the most bang for our buck out of every moment of the day, God likely does, too, and that's where we get it from. So the reason we don't see supernatural gifts any more is likely for a variety of reasons, not simply because the Holy Spirit no longer needs to manifest thusly, and we'll have to wait for the reason until He deigns to tell us (and He will in time because God is not the author of confusion). All things work towards the good will of God.
Now, if you can show me anything unbiblical in the above, I will gladly seek understanding and correction. However, this is what I have been able to deduce in the course of my life, and I'm humbly glad to be able to say, I'm not finished learning yet because the majesty of God is infinite.
Edit: Being born again is an internal, and entirely subjective experience. Otherwise, please post the video of someone being baptized and something supernatural occuring. Yes, it's a miracle to the one receiving it, but it's not like calling down fire from heaven to torch the Baal priests' altar.