Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: Unread, this statement contradicts itself.
"granted without payment if we will just admit our debt, and ask for forgiveness."
OR
"But we are required to show the same love and mercy to others that was shown to us."
How do we reconsile the two?

I don’t mean to insult you but the logic of your statement is incredibly lacking. God has given us commands to make our existence on this planet bearable. He provides us with air, water, and food from an ecology that works fairly well despite our attempts to destroy it, brains to figure out how to make the things our imaginations conceive to make our lives easier and medicines to relieve the various diseases we heap upon ourselves mostly by our own poor health habits and sinful lusts. In short, everything we are and have for life. He asks us to obey a few general rules and if you choose to obey, suddenly you have done some great work for God? What incredible audacity!

First, let me remind you that all have sinned. That means that all have at some point rebelled against a holy, vengeful God who has every right to squash you like you would an ant in your sugar bowl, biting your hand for taking his sugar.

Then, remember how he gave his only son who died so that you could have eternal life? Did you give your firstborn child to pay for your sins? Are you going to be required to give your own life to pay for your sin? If you gave your own life, how would you live to enjoy your reward? If God has to resurrect you, what kind of works is that? You gave him 100 years in return for billions? I’d like those returns on my savings. What do you own that you can give to God that is of any value to him that could possibly be worth the prize of eternal life in heaven? Your obedience? If you obey an earthly king, he isn’t going to give you eternal life. If you don’t obey him, he hands you your head on a platter or you rot in prison. You have nothing to give God that he cannot make you do any way or do himself with the word of his mouth. Face it, Dave… if you give your body to be burned, you have given God nothing he could possibly need. When you love one another, is God going to gain anything from you? If you could follow the commands of Christ perfectly, how is that profitable to God?

So, the gift of eternal life through whatever payment God demands of you is totally a gift, isn’t it? It’s truly not by works that we have done but according to his mercy he saves us, isn‘t it. When you realize you are nothing but a slave bought back from Satan by God’s only Son with his own blood, you will understand he can give his life for us and still demand our obedience.

Why did he do that?

Because he loves us and we were being beaten and destroyed by the evil one. Now we belong to a kind and loving master who only requires us to be like him. When did he buy us? Not when we believed and knew that he bought us, but 2000 years ago on the cross, he bought back the entire human family. If you continue to serve sin and Satan, it’s either because you don’t know that or because you are willfully disobedient.


Now if God has been so merciful unto us, and he requires that we also are merciful to others, on what grounds are you going to disobey? Be vaaary afraid, Dave…

:o

 

[Dave...]

Unread, I don't have a lot time. I'll get back to the things I passed over later.

have faith in what Jesus said we must do to be saved and thereby choose to walk humbly in love for one another and for God, confessing our sins daily.

Is having "faith in what Jesus said we must do to be saved" the same as having faith in Christ and believing, or the same as having faith in the works of the law?

"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "

The options are...

1) "by the works of the law"

2) "or by the hearing of faith"

Now if God has been so merciful unto us, and he requires that we also are merciful to others, on what grounds are you going to disobey? Be vaaary afraid, Dave…

I didn't quote the rest because it had nothing to do with what we are talking about. Let's look at what I wrote one more time.

Dave… wrote: Unread, this statement contradicts itself.
"granted without payment if we will just admit our debt, and ask for forgiveness."
OR
"But we are required to show the same love and mercy to others that was shown to us."
How do we reconsile the two?

I was responding to your response (parable Matthew 18:23-34).

The parable is speaking of sever chastisement/discipline not final condemnation and tortures, not executioners.

I don't have time to explain, but consider...

John 13:10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.†11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.â€Â

Justification (sanctification positional)

Philippians 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Sanctification progressive (sin/lack of mercy resulting in chastisement holds back this progression)

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote Is having "faith in what Jesus said we must do to be saved" the same as having faith in Christ and believing, or the same as having faith in the works of the law?
"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
The options are...
1) "by the works of the law"
2) "or by the hearing of faith"

2) by the hearing of faith. The ‘hearing of faith’ is having faith in what Jesus said to do, pure and simple. Read a couple more verses from Galatians 3 to get the full effect of the context:

5 He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

How do we know Abraham believed God? By his works. God said it, he believed it and he acted on it. If I said, “I believe you, Dave… I just don’t believe what you tell me,†do I have faith in what I hear from you? If you said that I need to be baptized in order to be saved, and I say I believe you but I don‘t get baptized, does it sound like I really did believe you? No, it was just a profession in word only, not a true belief and faith in you and what you said.

As for the ‘works of the law’, as I have explained several times before, they are the rites and rituals and letter of the OT law, not the heart and spirit of the law. Putting on the outward appearance of obedience won’t save you. You must have a changed attitude toward your sin, be truly repentant, hope and plan never to sin again, and have a willingness to obey Christ and a desire to do his will. Why do you fight against what Christ tells us to do in order to be saved?



Dave… wrote: I didn't quote the rest because it had nothing to do with what we are talking about. Let's look at what I wrote one more time….
I was responding to your response (parable Matthew 18:23-34).

Let’s look at what you missed now by not taking verse 35:

34And his lord was wroth, that would be ‘wrath’ to you) and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if you from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
What does your Father not forgive? Trespasses. Sins. What does the Bible say is the wages of sin? Death. Is that eternal death or temporal death in your book, Dave…? I know you don’t believe in UR, or you would have been booted from this board so that would be eternal death.

ThatÀ™s enough for now since “the rest of your post has nothing to do with what we are talking about.â€Â


8-)

 

[Dave...]

2) by the hearing of faith. The ‘hearing of faith’ is having faith in what Jesus said to do, pure and simple. Read a couple more verses from Galatians 3 to get the full effect of the context:

5 He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

The context is clear, when we look at the second question asked in verse 3, which you skipped over. The 'what to do' is covered in the second question. Which makes it perfectly clear what Paul was asking in the first question. He was asking just as it was stated.

First question: (positional sanctification) 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Second questionprogressive sanctification) 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

You are trying to merge the two together to incorporate your tradition. I think that you are avoiding the first question because you know where i'm going with it. You do not want to admit that man receives the Holy Spirit the first moment he believes, because then He would be justified as a result. So maybe you will answer this this to this question....When does a person receive the Holy Spirit, unread?

The original question is still on the board...

"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
The options are...

1) "by the works of the law"

2) "or by the hearing of faith"

How do we know Abraham believed God? By his works. God said it, he believed it and he acted on it.

Our justification does not hinge on whether or not others know we are saved. God acted on the faith that He himself supplied before any works were done. God knew the faith of Abraham was real, even before any works were done. God said it, do you believe it? "6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€Â"

Don't forget, Abraham was declared righteous before his offering up of Isaac because God knew the faith that He gave Abraham was a real faith.

"This does not contradict Paul's clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Romans 3:20, Romans 4:1-25, Galatians 3:6,11)

James could not mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own works because...

1) James already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift (James 1:17-18).

2) In the middle of this disputed passage (v23), James quoted Genesis 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on basis of his faith (also see Romans 1:17; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:1-25).

3) The work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Genesis 22:9,12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Genesis 12:1-7; Genesis 15:6). Instead, Abraham's offering of Isaac demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of mans claims to salvation. James' teaching perfectly compliments Paul's writing; salvation is determined by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) and demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God's will alone (Ephesians 2:10)." (JMSB)

You may be right that the Pharisee didn’t think that God required perfection. I think it was Christ who brought up that requirement. When Jesus said, “be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect,†he was actually raising the bar so that all would be bound under sin, and God could have mercy upon all. The Pharisee did think he was good enough in his own eyes and judged others harshly. You’re wrong about the tax collector though. There is no justification to add that he “came in faith.†Jesus said he came in humility and was sorrowful about his sin. You’re adding your own twist by saying he had faith. Whether he had faith or not is immaterial anyways

You must be right, the tax collector must have prayed to God asking forgiveness because he didn't believe that there was a God. And especially a God who could and would forgive him in his helpless state and provide atonement. :o Looks like faith to me.

If Jesus says He's justified, then he's justified. The only way to be justified before God is faith. Put two and two together.

Of Course, in the Matthew parable, you have God saving this man, then rejecting him because of sin, telling the man to go back out and earn once again his forgiveness, which you also claim cannot be done (see 'emphasized in bold' from your quote).

I know he forgave him. I said that. What I meant was there is no reason to believe that the man knew he was justified. It doesn’t say the man went away rejoicing and it doesn‘t say the man‘s faith made him whole and it doesn‘t imply that he trusted that God would forgive him. You have colored this parable to match your ‘no works’ gospel, as you do with all the scriptures. The point Jesus made and you refuse to accept is that the humble, repentant man was justified while the unrepentant, proud man who despised others, was not. Humility and repentance was the object of this lesson, not faith versus works.

This is simple. The man who went before God trusting in his works and lack of sin was found guilty. The man who came before God only asking for forgiveness was justified. That doesn't help your position, now does it?

Also, I never stated that man must be absent of works. I only stated that man should not rely on them to be justified before God. But as quickly as I put down your straw men, you simply keep repeating them. So stop with the "no works gospel" unless you are willing to explain that you are speaking within the context of justification before God.

The law of Christ is not the Jewish rites and ordinances that were added to the ten commandments. I am under the law of Christ, therefore I am not under the law of Moses. I am free to love and forgive others and not worry about all the ‘thou shalt nots’. Love fulfills the law of Moses, but the OT ordinances are done away in Christ.

As I stated before, the love your neighbor as yourself is a summery statement od the "thou shalt not's". It doesn't eliminate them, or even over ride them. Leviticus 19:18 didn't over ride ten commandments back then, it only summarized it. Same for today.

Matthew 5:17 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?â€Â
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.â€Â

I agree that the cerimonial laws are obsolete, but the moral laws still stand.

I need to ask, if you are being obedient, what are you being obedient to? In other words, how can their be obedience without a law?

The difference is in the motive. That's what seperates legalism from antonomianism from obeying out of the sheer joy of it. The third being the correct motive.

Psalm 119:44So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

45And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

46I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.

47And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

48My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

I told you that you might as well say, “If people who are saved, are not saved, how can they be saved?†and you did just that without batting an eye. S’mazing.

You'll need to decode this statement. I'm not getting it.

 

[unred typo]

Dave…wrote: God acted on the faith that He himself supplied before any works were done.

Well, maybe God will enjoy the eternal life that he himself will reward to himself then, because according to you, Abraham doesn‘t have any faith except God‘s. Your illogical misinterpretation of all of scripture is indeed mind boggling. No wonder I can’t explain this to you. I would have a better chance of teaching my dog to fly an airplane. :wink:

You have not dealt with anything I wrote but go right back to your rut in the mire as if I had not said a word. I could simply paste all my previous arguments here in answer to your post and not even have to write one new word. I don’t feel like playing “is so, is not†with you. I’ll just answer the couple of statements that get to the heart of the matter, once again, with feeling.


Dave…wrote: Also, I never stated that man must be absent of works. I only stated that man should not rely on them to be justified before God. But as quickly as I put down your straw men, you simply keep repeating them. So stop with the "no works gospel" unless you are willing to explain that you are speaking within the context of justification before God.

I am most adamant, eager and willing to explain that I am speaking within the context of justification before God. You are NOT justified by works of the OT laws that are only about ceremonies and rites and external things dealing with the flesh, eating clean meats, washing hands, circumcision, etc. You ARE justified by believing the gospel of Christ which tells you that you must walk in humility, love and faith and if you sin, you must humbly and sincerely repent of your sins, and you must completely forgive those who sin against you. That’s what believing the gospel is.

Do you think you can believe the gospel and not live like you believe it? You can’t. Your belief is observable in the way you live your life. That would be the ‘evidence of things not seen.’ That’s what faith is.

The free gift is the blood that takes away your sin when you repent of it. It’s not a free air lift to glory on a bed of roses. Even if following Christ costs you everything including your life, you will not have paid enough to claim you deserved any reward from God who has shown us more mercy and love than we can even fathom. That’s what grace is.


Dave… wrote I need to ask, if you are being obedient, what are you being obedient to? In other words, how can their be obedience without a law?

You need to ask? I’ve said it seven ways to Sunday already, Dave… :roll: It's ok, I can recite them by heart now. You have to be obedient to “the Law of Christ,†“the teachings of Jesus,†“the leading of the Holy Spirit,†“the royal law of love,†“the commands of our Lord and master,†“the spirit (not the letter) of the law,†“the heart and soul of the law,†“God’s word,†“the true gospel“ and “the laws written on our heartsââÅ“. Have you really forgotten or didn‘t you even read my posts at all? Is that why you call me “unreadâ€Â? :wink:


p.s. Don’t trouble your brain with this: “If people who are saved, are not saved, how can they be saved?†It’s just OSAS nonsense.
:-D

 

[Solo]

Dave has my vote. He is correct from a scriptural point of view.

 

[francisdesales]

Dave has my vote. He is correct from a scriptural point of view.

Unred has my vote. He is correct from a Scriptural point of view...

It is difficult to reconcile the words of Jesus Christ with a "faith alone without any love" teaching. I think that is why some Protestants consider Paul a "canon within a canon", giving Pauline epistles priority over the Gospels.

Regards

 

[unred typo]

Nuff said. Solo agrees with Dave… that should settle it. We all know he’s infallible. :wink:

 

[unred typo]

Francisdesales wrote:
Unred has my vote. He is correct from a Scriptural point of view...
It is difficult to reconcile the words of Jesus Christ with a "faith alone without any love" teaching. I think that is why some Protestants consider Paul a "canon within a canon", giving Pauline epistles priority over the Gospels.

Thanks for your support, Bro, but there can’t be much worse heresy on this board than being on the wrong side of the cath/prod line. Besides, unless you stress that the faith you’re talking about is a workless faith *for salvation*, you’re not even putting up a straw man that Dave can burn at the stake. I guess now he’ll just have to burn our strawman in effigy. :wink:

 

[unred typo]

Unread sed: I am most adamant, eager and willing to explain that I am speaking within the context of justification before God. You are NOT justified by works of the OT laws that are only about ceremonies and rites and external things dealing with the flesh, eating clean meats, washing hands, circumcision, etc. You ARE justified by believing the gospel of Christ which tells you that you must walk in humility, love and faith and if you sin, you must humbly and sincerely repent of your sins, and you must completely forgive those who sin against you. That’s what believing the gospel is.

Do you think you can believe the gospel and not live like you believe it? You can’t. Your belief is observable in the way you live your life. That would be the ‘evidence of things not seen.’ That’s what (having) faith is.

The free gift is the blood that takes away your sin when you repent of it. It’s not a free air lift to glory on a bed of roses. Even if following Christ costs you everything including your life, you will not have paid enough to claim you deserved any reward from God who has shown us more mercy and love than we can even fathom. That’s what grace is.

Yes, that sounds right. But do you have scripture for that? I suppose you would claim the same exact scriptures that evangelical Christians believe? It seems strange that some of the leaders would brand you a heretic for your belief, so your definitions must be where the difference is. IOW, what I’m saying is that you believe the same words but your meanings have been changed to include not only all of what Jesus and the disciples taught, but also all of Paul’s gospel as well. I also see that your belief removes all grounds for pride in that you encompass the attitude of humility by the very fact that no amount of works, however wonderful, could ever be enough.

Since the OP is Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some., would you say that works are a stumbling block for those who are hesitant to do them for fear of violating the man-made doctrine of justification by grace alone? What do they have to gain by making the works optional? Oh, I get it. If you do works that are not required, then, it is not that God didn’t have to do anything for man, but man who doesn’t have to do anything for God. Why it’s brilliant! Turning God’s own plan for salvation into a scam for damnation! Offering this new, improved, too good to be true, workless gospel in place of the old “take up your cross and follow Christ†one is like some sort of amazing grace deception.

The ‘old time religion’ must be a pretty hard sell nowadays. I bet trying to untangle these mixed up ideas is frustrating and it must be confusing when you have to use the same words that have been redefined by new meanings that have permeated the church like yeast in bread dough. There’s two ways to kill yeast. While the dough is still pliable, you can add milk that still contains the enzymes that will attack the yeast, or you can turn up the heat and put it in the oven. I wonder what will happen next? Is the church going through the fires of persecution?

I bet it’s driving you crazy. Yes, why, yes, it is. Thank you for noticing. Why don’t you take a break? But I can’t. You don’t understand, they don’t understand. It’s the last days. But if you don’t take a break, you’re going to break. I’m right. I need a break. You need a break, too.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Eat those rolls gently. They’ve been through so much. The turkey has given his all so eat him with humility. Give thanks unto God for his innumerable blessings, gracious patience, and most of all, his unspeakable gift.

Love to all *group hug*

:angel: :robot: :bday: 8-) :-D : : :wink: :-? :o :multi: :changes: :smt004 :smt005 :smt012 :smt116 :smt108 :smt060 :smt052 :smt058 :smt034 :smt025 :smt043 :smt051 :smt023 :smt030

:scatter: i'm outta here...
unread unred

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks for your support, Bro, but there can’t be much worse heresy on this board than being on the wrong side of the cath/prod line.

You know, I have noticed that some people get slightly "miffed" when the "C" word is brought up!!! (talk about understatement!)

It is amazing, though, how few of my brother and sister Protestants know about what Catholicism REALLY teaches... I think we would find we are closer than we think once we leave aside the old polemics of 1600...

For example, you have done a very good job on justification - although I hope that doesn't condemn you in other Protestant's eyes (a Catholic agreeing with a Protestant??? Oh my gawd! Next, cats and dogs will be eating together!!!)

Regards

 

[Dave...]

In a time like this of tolerance, listen, false teaching will always cry intolerance. It will always say you are being divisive, you are being unloving, you are being ungracious, because it can only survive when it doesn't get scrutinized. So it cries against any intolerance. It cries against any examination, any scrutinyâ€â€just let's embrace each other; let's love each other; let's put all that behind us. False doctrine cries the loudest about unity. Listen carefully when you hear the cry for unity, because it may be the cover of false doctrine encroaching. If ever we should follow 1 Thessalonians 5, and examine everything carefully, it's when somebody is crying unity, love, and acceptance.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ECTDOC.HTM

 

[Dave...]

" I was just going to add, the process of justification, and it is a process in the Catholic faith; starts with infant baptism. They say that justification is initiated as a process at infant baptism, and it progresses through life, based upon what you "do" with infused grace. Grace is infused into you supernaturally; it's infused into you through the Mass; it's infused into you through the sacraments, and as it is infused and you cooperate with itâ€â€you keep the justifying process going. Now, you can stop that process at any point in time with a mortal sin, but you keep it going even when you get to the end of your life. The odds are that you haven't kept it going good enough and you are going to Purgatory. Nothing could be a more convoluted view of what is an instantaneous act in the Word of God, as he said exactly, by which God places the righteousness of Christ on you. The truth is, I am no more righteous to the satisfaction of God now, than I was before I was declared righteous."

 

[unred typo]

Dave’s friend Mac wrote:In a time like this of tolerance, listen, false teaching will always cry intolerance. It will always say you are being divisive, you are being unloving, you are being ungracious, because it can only survive when it doesn't get scrutinized. So it cries against any intolerance. It cries against any examination, any scrutinyâ€â€just let's embrace each other; let's love each other; let's put all that behind us. False doctrine cries the loudest about unity. Listen carefully when you hear the cry for unity, because it may be the cover of false doctrine encroaching. If ever we should follow 1 Thessalonians 5, and examine everything carefully, it's when somebody is crying unity, love, and acceptance.

Good idea. Let’s examine these doctrines carefully. I thought we were doing that, some 10 pages now, Dave… I have been waiting for your response to my last post to you. Instead you pull this red herring out and wave it around. The OP, Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some, would imply that following Christ is a work of the law but in fact, following the teaching of Christ is above and beyond the external requirements of the OT law. Love for God and one another is the heart and soul of his gospel. To make the gospel message that Jesus taught as a red flag to alert believers to the possibility of false doctrine is utterly preposterous. No one is asking you to accept false doctrine in the name of love. What you need to see is that without love, any doctrine is made up of hollow words. You cannot be saved unless the love of Christ toward one another is your doctrine for life. Your religion is vain. Love is the test of any doctrine, and if it is about external requirements instead of love, it is a stumbling block. God is love and he who dwells in love, dwells in God and he in him.


:smt060

 

[unred typo]

Dave…’s friend, Mac, wrote: " I was just going to add, the process of justification, and it is a process in the Catholic faith; starts with infant baptism. They say that justification is initiated as a process at infant baptism, and it progresses through life, based upon what you "do" with infused grace. Grace is infused into you supernaturally; it's infused into you through the Mass; it's infused into you through the sacraments, and as it is infused and you cooperate with itâ€â€you keep the justifying process going. Now, you can stop that process at any point in time with a mortal sin, but you keep it going even when you get to the end of your life. The odds are that you haven't kept it going good enough and you are going to Purgatory. Nothing could be a more convoluted view of what is an instantaneous act in the Word of God, as he said exactly, by which God places the righteousness of Christ on you. The truth is, I am no more righteous to the satisfaction of God now, than I was before I was declared righteous."

I’m not Catholic, and I’ll let Joe handle that aspect of this post. I want to address the ‘process of justification’ that Mac believes is “an instantaneous act in the Word of God.†I don’t know why Dave… wants to be identified with this one who so proudly confesses that he is no more righteous than when he was declared so by God, I presume at his original conversion and confession of sins. He apparently identifies more with his old sin nature than his new godly one. He needs to get a new residence for his heart.

What is ‘instantaneous’ is the forgiveness and cleansing that you get when you day by day confess and repent of your sins. The process of justification is that continuance in well doing that is going to result in eternal life. Read Romans 2:6-8
(God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

‘Continuance in well doing’ denotes a process. Justification happens on a daily basis as you yield your will to the will of God, confessing and repenting of your sin. Mac wants to make a separate category for this under ‘sanctification’ and make ’justification’ a quick and irrevocable act by God: ‘Blink! You’re saved.’
:roll:

 

[Dave...]

Let's keep trying, one more time...

"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "

The options are...

1) "by the works of the law"

2) "or by the hearing of faith"

 

[Drew]

The options are...

1) "by the works of the law"

2) "or by the hearing of faith"

I am not convinced that these are really the only options and am suspicious of whether the belief that they are might be founded on a particuar view of such concepts as "works" and "faith" that might not be the only game in town - or, more importantly, may not reflect the original author's intent when the relevant texts were written. I hope to return to this later.....

 

[JM]

I am not convinced that these are really the only options and am suspicious of whether the belief that they are might be founded on a particuar view of such concepts as "works" and "faith" that might not be the only game in town - or, more importantly, may not reflect the original author's intent when the relevant texts were written. I hope to return to this later.....

What hermeneutic do you follow Drew?

 

[Drew]

What hermeneutic do you follow Drew?

I certainly think that one needs to to bear in mind that the texts were written in another culture and time. One cannot a priori assume that the meaning of terms like "faith" and "works" are the same as the ones that float around in our culture. It is this failure to place oneself in the cultural context from which these texts all spring that has, in my view, led to an incorrect view that humans have immortal souls. While that is a whole 'nuther debate, the point is that I believe that Greek ideas about dualism have informed how we read the word "soul".

Maybe the same thing applies here. Maybe we slap a 21st century western interpretation on words like "faith" and "works".

 

[unred typo]

Dave… asks and repeats: Again, I ask, "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
When you answer this question, we will carry on.

My answer: “Ok. I don’t want you to miss this because you say we can’t go on unless I answer.
We do not receive the Spirit by keeping the rites of the OT law. We receive the Spirit when we repent of our sins and choose to walk in love for one another and for God.â€Â



Dave… then wrote: The options are...
1) "by the works of the law"
2) "or by the hearing of faith"

My answer: “2) by the hearing of faith. The ‘hearing of faith’ is having faith in what Jesus said to do, pure and simple.â€Â

Dave… then wrote: Let's keep trying, one more time...
"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
The options are...
1) "by the works of the law"
2) "or by the hearing of faith"

My answer: “We do not receive the Spirit by keeping the rites and rituals and the letter of the OT law. We receive the Spirit when we hear the gospel to repent of our sins and have faith in what Jesus said we must do to be saved and thereby choose to walk humbly in love for one another and for God, confessing our sins daily. Now is that plain enough for you or would you like to hear it again rephrased and tied in a bow? What number would you give it? Sounds like 2) the hearing of faith.â€Â

Dave… now writes: Let's keep trying, one more time...
"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
The options are...
1) "by the works of the law"
2) "or by the hearing of faith"

My answer, again, in case you missed it, Dave.... 2) The Hearing of Faith (having faith in all of the things that God said, that Jesus taught, that he told the disciples to teach, and finally, what the apostle Paul preached.)

I think Drew is right. We do have different definitions of the phrases, ‘the works of the law’ and ‘the hearing of faith.’
An interpretation of ‘faith worked out by one’s actions’ is in keeping with everything God and Jesus taught, and the disciples and Paul, as well.

What God says about works and justifying the wicked:
Proverbs 24:12
If you say, Behold, we knew it not; does not he that ponders the heart consider it? and he that keeps your soul, does not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
24He that says unto the wicked, You are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:

Jesus, on the works of faith/righteousness:
John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Peter, on works of faith/righteousness:
Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.

James, on the hearing of faith: (a true hearer is one who hears the word and does what it says)
James 1:25
But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Paul, on works of faith/righteousness: (that’s doing good, for those who think ‘works of faith’ mean ‘just believing in what Jesus did’) :
Romans 2:6-8 (NIV)
God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

:fadein: