Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

[francisdesales]

Dave,

I skimmed Mr. Macarthur's writings. I agree with some of what he says. However, we must move to the big picture, our paradigm, to see why we both read Scripture through a different set of "lenses". Then, understanding each other's big picture, it might be easier to understand each other on the details - and we may find we agree with each other when we define the terms - something I have said when we first began this discussion.

The main point I want to bring up is that I disagree with Mr. Macarthur's contention that the main teaching of the New Testament, what makes Christianity what it is = the doctrine of justification by faith. That is not true. Justification by faith only became a topic of contention during the Protestant Reformation. By focusing on justification, we naturally are going to interject legalism and a legalistic view of salvation into the picture. And while Medieval Catholicism dealt with this - and perhaps it was some Reformers reacting to corrupt Scholasticism that brought about a reaction, I contend that Christianity centers on something ENTIRELY different.

If you read the writings of the Church Fathers in the first centuries, and if you look to the Eastern Orthodox Churches of the last 1000 years, and the Latin Church's change of direction after the polemics of the Reformation, you will find that without doubt, Christianity's point of gravity is centered on what is called "Divinization" or "Theosis". We, as men, are meant to share in the Divine Nature. THAT is Christianity! That God would become men so that men could become like God! Not about imputed justice or any such thing. This legal idea of salvation is based on the false premise that man is a pile of manure - to use Luther's analogy - that requires God to "cover" us with a legal status. Christianity contends that God CHANGES us, TRANSFORMS us - we are made to be LIKE God - not in essence, but by adoption. WE can love. WE can show mercy. WE can be just. And so forth. THIS is UNADULTERED Christianity to the core - becoming like God as God became man.

It is this subject that echoes over and over again in the writings of these Christians of the first millenium, Eastern Orthodox all along, and the Latin Church off and on again, more so now after Vatican 2. Mr. Macarthur's idea of Christianity is skewed based on his own denominational theology that began only recently.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

So then the Roman Catholic teachings teach that one must be Baptized in the Roman Catholic Church and participate in the sacraments in order to be saved? And only the past sins are forgiven, which means that the infants that have been baptized have only the original sin forgiven. That means that all Roman Catholics must follow the Roman Catholic Church's sacraments in order to accomplish the right walk in order to be saved, and the work of Jesus Christ on the cross was not sufficient.

I think we have already discussed this on our re-reading of the Council of Trent quotation that you brought forward recently. St. Cyprian in c. 250 AD said that heretics didn't have to be re-Baptized and Rome agreed. Thus, we Catholics don't "rebaptize" another Christian who desires to enter the fullness of the Church - as long as they have been baptized in the name of the Trinity with water - we believe that God has already begun to send His Spirit to that person. Thus, we don't baptize Protestants who desire to become Catholic. They ALREADY ARE part of the Catholic Church in a mysterious and hidden way. They want to become Catholic more fully and share in communion with the visible Church.

It is not absolutely necessary to follow the Roman sacraments to be saved - as St. Augustine said and Rome agreed vs. the Donatists over 1500 years ago. God is NOT bound by the Sacraments! And certainly, He is not bound by them when coming to judge an Incan Indian of 1400 AD... It is normative, however, that one receives the sacraments to be saved - as God chooses to act through them.

What worries me is those who continue to reject the sacraments, which are God's means of coming to mankind in the most visible manner, when they know what these sacraments are meant to do... Then, ignorance is not longer an excuse for such people.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Man cannot forgive sins as the Roman Catholics teach.

Wrong. God forgives man through a visible priest. We as humans need to hear "you are forgiven". The priest acts in the "Person of Christ". He is the voice and hands of the priest offering Christ's forgiveness through a visible medium. That is what a sacrament is: a visible sign of invisible graces. The invisible graces are from Christ.

Wrong. God forgives man's sins against God. Man cannot forgive man's sins against God. That is one of the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. No one can act in the position of Jesus Christ. No man is the person of Jesus Christ, yet many will come and speak lies saying the they are Christ, or that Christ is Christ while teaching false doctrines. The Spiritual things of God are not performed in the physical senses of the natural man. The real head of the Church teaches that God is spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24

The Apostles could discern those whose sins were forgiven, and those whose sins were not forgiven, by the fruits of those who they came into contact with.

No. How can the apostles discern the sins of others unless that person make them known? Thus, we are told to repent and confess our sins. While the "fruits" may give one a general idea of a person's relationship with God, you should know by now that people can and do hide many things behind that facade presented to the rest of the world. Humans have a knack for hiding their sins from others. Considering we are of similar ages, I don't have to tell you that - I am just reminding you.

The Apostles did not need to know the sins in order to preach the remission and retention of sins. The gospel teaches that all sins are forgiven by God through the work of Jesus Christ. The Apostles preach that one who does not believe will retain their sins, and those that believe will remit their sins.

The Apostle preached the remission of sins by those who believe in the blood of Jesus Christ being shed for their sins. The Apostles preach the remission and retention of sins based on the gospel of Jesus Christ, yet they do not forgive the sins of men against God, for that is not their place.

Again, the first part is fine if you are speaking of converting an adult from a sinful way of life - what we would call "initial justification". However, WE all fall into sin on occasion; consider reading Romans 7 if you disagre. We all need to be "re-healed". Thus, as Paul tells the Corinthians, he is a minister of reconcilliation. And he is not talking about only that first time. It is an ongoing process, one of healing, falling back, repentance and healing, falling back, and so forth. Just like a physical sickness, our souls can and DO get sick again. And again, I am only reminding you - you must certainly have experienced that in life.

Regarding the second part, you are twisting John 20:20-23, it clearly tells the Apostles have been given the authority to bind and loosen. Through them, God works reconcilliation among men, as Jesus explains in Mat 16 and Mat 18. The Apostles were given authority to bind and loosen - not on their own power, but God working through them. The Jews understood this concept...They didn't think their priests forgave sins - they understood that during the Day of Atonement, God worked through the actions of the priest, making God's forgiveness VISIBLE to mankind through ritual. The New Covenant CLEARLY overshadows the sacraments of the Old Testament, and now man is forgiven of sin through the blood of Christ - a much superior manner.

Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for all sins, and the healing from all sins is done at the time when a believer is born again. The condemned that are born again are condemned no more. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach the truth about being born again. Pay close attention and I will try to teach you the truth of the born again process.

A person is born again when he is born from above, born of God. The Holy Spirit wakens a condemned soul to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the free-willed individual has a choice to make; to repent and believe in Jesus Christ following Him, or to not believe. After the choice to repent, believe, and follow Jesus Christ is made the believer is born again, born from above, born of the Spirit of God, a new creature. The old man is the natural man born of the flesh, and the new creature is the man born of the Spirit. This new creature is indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God inside the fleshly, physical, corrupt, mortal, sinful body. This new creature does not sin as he was born of God. In order to continue fellowship with God in the Spirit, one must follow the guidence of the Holy Spirit and acknowledge those periods of failure when one walks in the flesh instead of walking in the spirit. Salvation has already been completed by the Lord Jesus Christ when an individual believes and is born again. Being born again into the new creature wraps up the salvation (justification) of a believer, and such believer is sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Scriptures to back up these statements follow in the order posted:

• 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18
  
  5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8
  
  16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
  
  15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15
  
  9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9
  
  12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:12-14

 

[unred typo]

Dave…. Quoted MacArthur who wrote: That is precisely why our obedience should be motivated primarily by gratitude and love for the Lord. We are free from the threat of eternal condemnation (Rom. 8:1). We are free from the law of sin and death (v. 2), and empowered by God's grace both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). We have every reason to obey joyfullyâ€â€and no true Christian will ever think of obedience as something optional.

Yes, we should be motivated by love and gratitude but we should also know that without continuance in obedience, repentance and walking in love and forgiveness we are not free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1 -2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Either you are under one law or the other. The law of Christ is walking in repentance, love and forgiveness of others while the law of sin and death is where you condemn others, refuse to forgive those who have sinned against you and by doing so, are at the same time condemning yourself.

I notice Mac left out the verses before and after Philippians 2:13. I’ve highlighted why he shouldn’t have.

Phil. 2:12 -16 12Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world;
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.

God does work in us to will and to do of his good pleasure. I work in my children’s lives to get them to work and do my good pleasure, too. God creates situations in our lives to motivate us to do what we should be doing. That doesn’t mean that we can’t refuse to obey, and sneak off to do our own good pleasure instead. Paul is saying that because God is working on us, we should co operate with him and not resist him and earn his rebuke, lose rewards, or even our salvation.


:o

 

[francisdesales]

God forgives man's sins against God. Man cannot forgive man's sins against God.

Again, I said that God forgives sins through the ministry of the Church. God delegated this authority upon the Church at various times - Mat 16, Mat 18, and John 20, for example. Also, see James 5 and 2 Cor 5.

No one can act in the position of Jesus Christ.

Not even if Christ HIMSELF delegates His authority to others? Do you have Scriptural support for that idea?

No man is the person of Jesus Christ, yet many will come and speak lies saying the they are Christ, or that Christ is Christ while teaching false doctrines.

And when does the Catholic Church teach that the Pope or anyone else IS Christ? And false doctrines, well, you really haven't proved that one yet. Merely asserting it means nothing.

The real head of the Church teaches that God is spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth.

And yet, people are to be baptized... A command given by CHRIST HIMSELF! Again, another fine example of Protestantism resorting to the false dichotomy of "Either/Or"...

The Apostles did not need to know the sins in order to preach the remission and retention of sins. The gospel teaches that all sins are forgiven by God through the work of Jesus Christ. The Apostles preach that one who does not believe will retain their sins, and those that believe will remit their sins.

Your explanation does little to show WHY Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive or retain sins. WHY would an apostle RETAIN sins if all the Apostle did was MERELY preach God's forgiveness upon mankind??? Your explanation doesn't take into account that men need to be personally forgiven and healed, not some abstract and esoteric "teaching" that everyone would be healed by merely saying one wanted it...

Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for all sins, and the healing from all sins is done at the time when a believer is born again. The condemned that are born again are condemned no more.

Unless a person choses to revert back to sin. Then, their original healing is lost - as they are sick again. If you have a disease, and are cured of it, what good is that if you AGAIN get the disease? You will AGAIN need to be cured. In the spiritual realm, this is no different. God's forgiveness is offered only to those who ask for it. Have you not read the Old Testament? Wasn't that the way of God? To wait for the Israelites to return to God, to repent? Forgivness is only given when man ASKS for it - and this forgiveness does NOT give man a warrant to sin as often as they like in the future, understanding that future sins have already been forgiven before committed. This is a most unholy and unpious teaching that is most definitely false...

A person is born again when he is born from above, born of God. The Holy Spirit wakens a condemned soul to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the free-willed individual has a choice to make; to repent and believe in Jesus Christ following Him, or to not believe. After the choice to repent, believe, and follow Jesus Christ is made the believer is born again, born from above, born of the Spirit of God, a new creature. The old man is the natural man born of the flesh, and the new creature is the man born of the Spirit. This new creature is indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God inside the fleshly, physical, corrupt, mortal, sinful body. This new creature does not sin as he was born of God.

Sorry, that last sentence is most definitely wrong and incorrect. Even Paul HIMSELF says he CONTINUES to fight against sin. John tells other CHRISTIANS that if they think they do not sin, they are liars. You are trying to make some sort of dual creature that exists within man, reintroducing the heresy of Gnosticism. The material world was created by God, created good. The flesh, the material world in of itself is not evil. Paul's statements about the flesh do not refer to our body, but to the desires of the flesh, initiated in the spirit, that have motives other than a motive to please God. The spiritual man is the one who desires to follow the will of God, even if it means with His body.

Thus, your understanding of Paul places you squarely in the Gnostic camp, one that has disdain for the material world - while God HIMSELF ENTERED THE MATERIAL WORLD AND BECAME MATERIAL FLESH...

IF material was evil, than you must not believe that God took on flesh... What did John say about people who teach that?

Regards

 

[Solo]

Sorry, that last sentence is most definitely wrong and incorrect. Even Paul HIMSELF says he CONTINUES to fight against sin. John tells other CHRISTIANS that if they think they do not sin, they are liars. You are trying to make some sort of dual creature that exists within man, reintroducing the heresy of Gnosticism. The material world was created by God, created good. The flesh, the material world in of itself is not evil. Paul's statements about the flesh do not refer to our body, but to the desires of the flesh, initiated in the spirit, that have motives other than a motive to please God. The spiritual man is the one who desires to follow the will of God, even if it means with His body.

Thus, your understanding of Paul places you squarely in the Gnostic camp, one that has disdain for the material world - while God HIMSELF ENTERED THE MATERIAL WORLD AND BECAME MATERIAL FLESH...

IF material was evil, than you must not believe that God took on flesh... What did John say about people who teach that?

Regards

To declare that I am "squarely in the Gnostic camp" is to declare your ignorance of the scriptures and ignorance of gnosticism.

Describe what Paul is teaching when he says to walk in the spirit so that one does not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

And what does Paul mean when he says to put off that which is of the former conversation of the old man, which is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; that you put on the new man, which is created in righteousness and true holiness after God?

20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Ephesians 4:20-24

Also explain what Paul is teaching when he says that the flesh is sold unto sin, but with the inward man he serves the things of God.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

Know ye not that we are to crucify the corrupt flesh so that we do not walk in the lusts of the flesh, and without being born again we have no other walk than to walk in the flesh because the spirit has not been regenerated by God?

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24

 

[unred typo]

Solo wrote: Know ye not that we are to crucify the corrupt flesh so that we do not walk in the lusts of the flesh, and without being born again we have no other walk than to walk in the flesh because the spirit has not been regenerated by God?

Is that scripture? It sounds like KJV but I don't recall such wording. Do you have a reference for that? :-?

 

[Solo]

Solo wrote: Know ye not that we are to crucify the corrupt flesh so that we do not walk in the lusts of the flesh, and without being born again we have no other walk than to walk in the flesh because the spirit has not been regenerated by God?

Is that scripture? It sounds like KJV but I don't recall such wording. Do you have a reference for that? :-?

That verse of scripture is Solo Chapter 1 verse 32. :wink:

The KJV verses leading me to that conclusion are:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24

AND Jesus' teachings of being born again in order to see and enter the kingdom of God as recorded in John 3.

 

[francisdesales]

To declare that I am "squarely in the Gnostic camp" is to declare your ignorance of the scriptures and ignorance of gnosticism.

I already explained myself. The Lord said that evil comes from within, not from the "flesh". Paul is talking about our motivation - whether it is from the satisifaction of our lower earthly desires, or whether it is for satisfying our obligations to God.

I am well versed in what Gnosticism is. Unfortunately, your dualism merely shows that some heresies just never go away...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

To declare that I am "squarely in the Gnostic camp" is to declare your ignorance of the scriptures and ignorance of gnosticism.

I already explained myself. The Lord said that evil comes from within, not from the "flesh". Jesus came in the flesh. If flesh is evil, then Jesus took on an evil nature??? Paul is talking about our motivation - whether it is from the satisifaction of our lower earthly desires, or whether it is for satisfying our obligations to God.

I am well versed in what Gnosticism is. Unfortunately, your dualism merely shows that some heresies just never go away...

Regards

 

[unred typo]

Solo wrote: That verse of scripture is Solo Chapter 1 verse 32. :wink:
The KJV verses leading me to that conclusion are:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
AND Jesus' teachings of being born again in order to see and enter the kingdom of God as recorded in John 3.

OK…I always wondered if you had written your own KJV. :-D I’d like to read Solo 1: 1- 31 to see if it is in context. :wink: Never mind. I can follow your reasoning in the need to crucify the flesh and it’s lusts, but the life I live in the flesh is still the life I have been given to glorify God with and the same corrupt body is capable of doing good on this earth if you order your members to act as members of Christ and not unrighteousness. Your last statement misses the mark completely. You’re using the word “see†to mean ‘understand and comprehend’ the kingdom and not to actually enter heaven‘s gates.

Nicodemus starts by saying that knows that Jesus was a teacher come from God. He has assumed that Jesus had been in the presence of God. We can’t have prophetic revelations and perform miracles without being born of the Spirit. These are gifts beyond ordinary human capabilities. Until we are fully yielded to the reign of God in our hearts, we won’t experience the rewards of being in his kingdom. If we are just playing church, and have no love for our fellowman, we have not submitted to the righteousness of God and we are just going about trying to establish our own righteousness. That’s why you have to write your own Bible to justify what you are preaching. The only place you can find your key doctrines is in the writings of other men, and you are just as qualified to write it as they are.

That is not to say that we can’t have an understanding of how to submit to him and please him. Everyone can learn of God and even children understand that you are a servant of whom you obey. They want to be their own boss and when they discover it, one of their favorite words is “NO!†As adults, we have learned to say, “No, LORD†as if that will make it alright. From there, we make excuses, much like Adam.

Now we don’t just look for something/someone to blame our failure to obey on, we even put our responsibility to obey on God. We put it on him when we can, saying we have no ability to obey unless he gives it to us. God says, “Do this and live†and we gather up all our false humility and smugly say, “Go ahead, make me…†or we whine, “I caaaaan’t, you have to give me the will, Lord.†At this point, my Dad would take out his switch and give us the will. “For this cause, many are weak and sickly among you…†Do you have that one in your KSV Bible, Solo?

 

[Solo]

I already explained myself. The Lord said that evil comes from within, not from the "flesh". Paul is talking about our motivation - whether it is from the satisifaction of our lower earthly desires, or whether it is for satisfying our obligations to God.

I am well versed in what Gnosticism is. Unfortunately, your dualism merely shows that some heresies just never go away...

Regards

As is typical of your posts, no scripture to back up your points. Of course, the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God, so it really doesn't surprise me.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

 

[francisdesales]

I already explained myself. The Lord said that evil comes from within, not from the "flesh". Paul is talking about our motivation - whether it is from the satisifaction of our lower earthly desires, or whether it is for satisfying our obligations to God.

As is typical of your posts, no scripture to back up your points. Of course, the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God, so it really doesn't surprise me.

Another weak attempt to discredit me because I am Catholic. You think because I am Catholic I haven't read the Bible???

In my above note, I gave you the pertinent Scriptural idea. If you were more familiar with Scripture, you would recognize that Jesus did INDEED say my paraphrase above. I don't have Bible software at all of the desktops that I type from, so forgive me if I don't MEMORIZE the exact locations of Scriptures.

I had hoped that the above was enough to see that sin is not located in the body, as per Jesus' Words Himself. Below is the pertinent Scriptures. Note that Jesus does not condemn the FLESH, but the spirit within the man which brings about evil. Thus, your attempt at dualism, the attempt to call the flesh evil and the spirit good clearly misunderstands the Lord's Own teaching on the source of evil...

Here it is, since I am not sure now that you are familiar with this passage...

"Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." Mark 7:18-23

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

You again prove yourself wrong, as Paul talks about the "spirit of the world" vs. the "spirit of God". He is not separating the flesh from the spirit of a man, but rather, the motivations that drive man. Again, such dualism is a heresy that comes dangerously close to rejecting that God came in the flesh because you seem to have an apathy towards the body as if IT is in opposition to the Spirit of God in of itself. Christ tells us from where temptations come from - within. It is an attachment to things to satisfy our flesh, but the motivation is clearly from our "spirit of the world".

Regards

 

[Dave...]

The main point I want to bring up is that I disagree with Mr. Macarthur's contention that the main teaching of the New Testament, what makes Christianity what it is = the doctrine of justification by faith. That is not true.Justification by faith only became a topic of contention during the Protestant Reformation.

francisdesales, why do you not address any the scripture that I post concerning this matter, then deny it exists? Are you pretending that it's not there?

Have you ever read the Bible?

By focusing on justification, we naturally are going to interject legalism and a legalistic view of salvation into the picture. And while Medieval Catholicism dealt with this - and perhaps it was some Reformersreacting to corrupt Scholasticism that brought about a reaction, I contend that Christianity centers on something ENTIRELY different.

francisdesales, do you not understand? You are the legalist. You, who seek to justify yourself before God by your own works, are strongly implying that Christ's blood is insufficient. You are the *self*-righteous that Jesus rebuked and warned against in scripture.

If you read the writings of the Church Fathers in the first centuries, and if you look to the Eastern Orthodox Churches of the last 1000 years, and the Latin Church's change of direction after the polemics of the Reformation, you will find that without doubt, Christianity's point of gravity is centered on what is called "Divinization" or "Theosis". We, as men, are meant to share in the Divine Nature. THAT is Christianity! That God would become men so that men could become like God! Not about imputed justice or any such thing.

The doctrine of our justification before God is separate from the results of being justified.

This legal idea of salvation is based on the false premise that man is a pile of manure - to use Luther's analogy - that requires God to "cover" us with a legal status. Christianity contends that God CHANGES us, TRANSFORMS us - we are made to be LIKE God - not in essence, but by adoption. WE can love. WE can show mercy. WE can be just. And so forth. THIS is UNADULTERED Christianity to the core - becoming like God as God became man.

If you have something to say to Luther, then say it to Luther. I don't recall swearing my loyalties to Luther or even quoting him one time in this thread. I never said that man is a pile of manure, he is unclean because of sin, and I will state very plainly that as far as our justification before God goes, our works are a pile of manure. Actually, Paul call any attempt at self righteousness "rubbish", a more proper translation is "dung".

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[Dave...]

unred typo wrote:

Yes, we should be motivated by love and gratitude but we should also know that without continuance in obedience, repentance and walking in love and forgiveness we are not free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1 -2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Either you are under one law or the other. The law of Christ is walking in repentance, love and forgiveness of others while the law of sin and death is where you condemn others, refuse to forgive those who have sinned against you and by doing so, are at the same time condemning yourself.

Within this context I agree...
Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = obedience/good fruit/works

Works are an evidence, not the cause.

Phil. 2:12 -16 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world;
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.

This is not a stumbling block, he has taught on this many times, and it all fits with the quotes that I used here. The problem is that you are looking at it from a much smaller perspective than he is.

God knows who is saved from the foundations of the world. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. This is for personal reflection as Paul said 'check yourself daily to see whether you are in the faith'. We use our evidences/fruit to reveal us to ourselves.

13. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

"that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain."

Hmmm, were have I heard that before. Run a search on "in vain" it should be very revealing.

 

[Solo]

You again prove yourself wrong, as Paul talks about the "spirit of the world" vs. the "spirit of God". He is not separating the flesh from the spirit of a man, but rather, the motivations that drive man. Again, such dualism is a heresy that comes dangerously close to rejecting that God came in the flesh because you seem to have an apathy towards the body as if IT is in opposition to the Spirit of God in of itself. Christ tells us from where temptations come from - within. It is an attachment to things to satisfy our flesh, but the motivation is clearly from our "spirit of the world".

Regards

You discredit yourself being under the false teachings of the Roman Catholic church. It is obvious from your post concerning the flesh and the spirit that you do not understand being born again. You also adhere to the false teaching of purgatory which regulates Jesus' work on the cross as being insufficient to clean up the lowly sinning Roman Catholics.

Perhaps you could give us an outline of salvation as taught by the Roman Catholic Church with scripture.

Thanks.

 

[francisdesales]

You discredit yourself being under the false teachings of the Roman Catholic church. It is obvious from your post concerning the flesh and the spirit that you do not understand being born again. You also adhere to the false teaching of purgatory which regulates Jesus' work on the cross as being insufficient to clean up the lowly sinning Roman Catholics.

Perhaps you could give us an outline of salvation as taught by the Roman Catholic Church with scripture.

Thanks.

Uh, You are going to have to PROVE that ANY teachings of Rome are false. You have yet to do that. So until that time, kindly prove it. Your inability to do so merely shows your version of fallible Scriptural interpretations don't match up with the rest of the Bible.

IF you were so sure of yourself, why are you so flustered and finding yourself acting the way you are acting? Prove it from Scriptures, not from your proclamations that I have already proven wrong on a number of occasions.

Purgatory I have given numerous citations. I have already refuted your lame attempt to say that Purgatory shows that "Christ's work is insufficient". Again, I remain unconvinced with your pronouncements. Perhaps you should address the Scriptures, if you are able, before turning your nose up at anything CAtholic.

Perhaps you should give ME an outline of salvation. It will be better for others reading this to actually show you Scripture citations where you are wrong then listen to you tell me I am wrong because I am Catholic. You aren't convincing anyone...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

This is not a stumbling block, he has taught on this many times, and it all fits with the quotes that I used here. The problem is that you are looking at it from a much smaller perspective than he is.

God knows who is saved from the foundations of the world. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. This is for personal reflection as Paul said 'check yourself daily to see whether you are in the faith'. We use our evidences/fruit to reveal us to ourselves.

Dave,

Doesn't the Scripture verses that unred typo has given to you show that salvation is a journey, not a one-time declaration? You yourself have said this with your own "check yourself daily to see whether you are in the faith". When if you aren't??? When if you are not checking yourself? Can such a person eventually become lost? While one is not saved by works, one is not saved by faith without these works of love. Works are MORE than just a mere evidence of our faith - it IS our faith in action. Paul told us that nothing else matters but "faith working in love" (Gal 5:6) Because faith is a continuous, ongoing decision towards God, it is not something we do once and never worry about again. This totally destroys the whole concept of perseverance and the Christian moral ethic that Paul and the rest continuously promote.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Uh, You are going to have to PROVE that ANY teachings of Rome are false. You have yet to do that. So until that time, kindly prove it. Your inability to do so merely shows your version of fallible Scriptural interpretations don't match up with the rest of the Bible.

IF you were so sure of yourself, why are you so flustered and finding yourself acting the way you are acting? Prove it from Scriptures, not from your proclamations that I have already proven wrong on a number of occasions.

Purgatory I have given numerous citations. I have already refuted your lame attempt to say that Purgatory shows that "Christ's work is insufficient". Again, I remain unconvinced with your pronouncements. Perhaps you should address the Scriptures, if you are able, before turning your nose up at anything CAtholic.

Perhaps you should give ME an outline of salvation. It will be better for others reading this to actually show you Scripture citations where you are wrong then listen to you tell me I am wrong because I am Catholic. You aren't convincing anyone...

Regards

Your lack of giving the teaching of salvation by being born again speaks loudly. Your stand is evident that your position is false, for the teaching of salvation is the crux of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for confirming my discernment of your position.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: Within this context I agree...
Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = obedience/good fruit/works
Works are an evidence, not the cause.

Sure. That’s as obvious as saying if you didn’t speak, we couldn’t hear your voice. Works are evidence of our faith. So what? We don’t think works cause our faith, do we? Faith is believing God and because you believe, doing what he says. You can dissect and analyze and dismember the gospel truths until you have mutilated them beyond recognition if you want. Why not simply accept God’s word and follow what he says to do? Instead of separating it into all it’s components, why don’t you try putting it back together in the normal context of living our lives? How much thought do you think Abraham gave to the problem of what should come first, faith or works? Do you think he took time to study out whether he should obey God, before being justified and without imputed righteousness? I think God spoke to him and he simply obeyed. That pleased God. I don’t think all this study to make sure that God’s commands are not essential to salvation pleases him at all.



Dave…. Wrote: This is not a stumbling block, he has taught on this many times, and it all fits with the quotes that I used here. The problem is that you are looking at it from a much smaller perspective than he is.
God knows who is saved from the foundations of the world. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. This is for personal reflection as Paul said 'check yourself daily to see whether you are in the faith'. We use our evidences/fruit to reveal us to ourselves.

Aha. Now we see why you can’t get your brain into my tiny thoughts. You think God knows specifically who is saved from the foundations of the world. Can you find that quoted anywhere? In plain English, Greek or Hebrew, without merging two separate ideas into one delightful doctrine?
Yes, of course Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. How would we know God’s plan if he didn’t have a plan to start with? How would we believe he did miracles if he didn’t actually do miracles? How would we know he died for us if he didn’t die for us? How would we believe he walked this earth as the Son of God if he never came here? Why should we check ourselves daily to see whether we are in the faith if we can never do anything about it? If I ‘examine my fruit’ and find none, am I just supposed to be depressed and distraught and contemplate suicide? Or worse? What? Do you have a bit of good news for those of us who find they are not elect and chosen, then? It appears you have some bad news and some bad news. Your gospel to the non elect must go; “You are not elect and there isn’t a darn thing you can do about it. Sucks to be you.â€Â



Dave… wrote: "that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain."
Hmmm, were have I heard that before. Run a search on "in vain" it should be very revealing.

Does it remind you of this?
Matthew 15:9 & Mark 7:7 both say:
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

In Matt. 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups*: ( *update this to read: cleaning up of doctrines and the various nuances of theological terminology) and many other such like things you do.

Here in Mark, Jesus specifically named one command they were breaking by tradition.
Mark 7:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
5But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever you might be profited by me;
6And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

God had said to honor parents, and to treat them with the respect they were due because they were your parents. The Pharisees taught that anything you gave to your parents was not required and that the children should not be thought of as owing anything to them.
They were in effect saying that whatever they did for their parents was a gift that was undeserved by the parents. This gave the impression that if they did anything at all for them, they were doing something extraordinary when actually, they were only what was their obligation to do. That made them free to not do anything for their aging parents. Any works they did do for them became a matter of pride. They were justified by their own doctrines but not just and right before God. Their works were a stumbling block of pride.