LAW

[JLB]

Galatians 3:13 Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (make stand) the law.
​

The Law stands, the curse falls.

Christ redeemed those who were under the law -

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Why would someone who was never under the law, try to keep the law, when Christ came to redeem those who actually were under the law?

You can't keep the law, all you can do is pick a few things that seem right in your own eyes, and try to do those things, as the scripture says - are you so foolish, Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 3:3


Those who start trying to keep the law of Moses only part of the way, are under a curse.


For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. Galatians 3:10

THIS VERSE OF SCRIPTURE WAS WRITTEN TO GENTILE CHRISTIANS WHO CAME UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF JUDAIZERS, AND WERE TRYING TO KEEP THE LAW!


JLB

 

[jocor]

So are you saying that under the OC which was the Law of Moses and was administered by Moses, is now, under the NT, the same Law and is now the Law of the Spirit and administered by the Spirit?
I thought I had read in the NT that Moses was the mediator of the Law of Moses and I don't see in scripture that the Messiah is ever said to be the new mediator of the Law of Moses? I thought the new came and the old was fading away?

Moses was the mediator of the OC. Yeshua is the mediator of the NC. Both covenants have the same law, but it is administered differently. Under the OC the Law brought death when broken. Under the NC there is no death penalty for breaking it because Yeshua paid that debt. However, there will be a judgment for breaking the Law under the NC. We will be rewarded based on our works. If we break the Law and teach others to break it, we will be the least in the Kingdom (Matthew 5:17-19).

Young's Literal Translation

1Ti 1:7 willing to be teachers of law, not understanding either the things they say, nor concerning what they asseverate,
1Ti 1:8 and we have known that the law is good, if any one may use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers,
1Ti 1:10 whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,
1Ti 1:11 according to the good news of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted.

This is saying that believers should use the "good" Law lawfully. To break it is to use it unlawfully. A righteous man will not practice breaking the Law.

We as believers in Messiah....
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
2Co 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.
2Co 3:7 and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face--which was being made useless,
2Co 3:8 how shall the ministration of the Spirit not be more in glory?

The kind of righteousness that Yahweh wants comes through faith, not through Law. However, faith produces works including obedience to the Law out of love for Yahweh and man. Elizabeth and Zacharias were said to be "righteous" while living under the OC. Therefore, the Law does not hinder righteousness because righteousness is by faith, not Law. The Law, the Ten Commandments, etc., does not hinder righteousness under the NC either.

I don't understand where you stand concerning the Law. Sometimes you seem to come against the Law, but at other times you support the Law by showing me how the Law of Moses is included under the two greatest commandments. You explained how Deu 4:2 is included under not lying which, in reality, supports the continuance of Deu 4:2.

 

[jocor]

The Talmud adds a lot of traditions, and oral law, that are not in the OT.

That's an interesting question and I think it would depend on the circumstances. The easy answer would be that one is only lying if the know they are telling a lie. But on the other hand say someone repeats something they heard and believed but it wasn't the truth about someone else than maybe that would be considered lying, so no gossiping. The Gnostics really didn't believe they sinned but they were horrible sinners and John said that was lying to say one had not sinned.

You know that is one reason I like Young's Literal Translation. When the text says YHVH, it says Jehovah. NOW, don't have a come apart. I know that to pronounce YHVH with a 'J' sound and Jesus as well, is incorrect. But do you really think that the way it is pronounced in different languages offends YHVH, I don't think so He is much bigger a personality than to be offended by that. ie, In Hebrew, King Daved, long e sound, in English David, short i sound and in both cases the 'v' sounds like a 'v'.
Young's only uses Lord and lord when the Hebrew says adonai, which I believe is a correct translation. Here's a good explanation maybe of how all that happened.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/840-adonai

A Karaite Jew will tell you that there is no law against saying the name of God, that is simply tradition of the rabbis. I agree, don't see that in the OT either.

Blessings to you, jocor

Since the Father seeks those who worship in truth and we MUST worship in truth (John 4:23-24), it would behoove us to not compromise and settle for less than truth. If we know "Jehovah" is a linguistic impossibility as a rendering of YHWH, then we should seek a more truthful rendering. This is especially true concerning such a holy name.

 

[jocor]

There is one LORD and He is God.

Amein brother! To put it more linguistically correct, "There is one YHWH and He is Elohim".

 

[jocor]

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. Galatians 3:10

THIS VERSE OF SCRIPTURE WAS WRITTEN TO GENTILE CHRISTIANS WHO CAME UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF JUDAIZERS, AND WERE TRYING TO KEEP THE LAW!

JLB

You have taken verse 10 out of context. Verse 11 says, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." The context is against keeping the Law in order to be justified. It is NOT against keeping the Law out of love for Yahweh and our neighbor.

 

[eddif]

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightiermatters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Hebrews 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

The law is not all gloom and doom.

Eternal life is under the name of Jesus (every mam heard in his own language).

eddif

 

[JLB]

Amein brother! To put it more linguistically correct, "There is one YHWH and He is Elohim".

To put it more scriptural, - For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You have taken verse 10 out of context. Verse 11 says, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." The context is against keeping the Law in order to be justified. It is NOT against keeping the Law out of love for Yahweh and our neighbor.

You have completely misunderstood that Paul was warning these Gentile Christians of the curse for those who don't continue in doing all the law, as they were being influenced by JUDAIZERS !

This warning was given to saved Christian!

To Love The Lord and your neighbor was God's Royal Law, long before Moses Law.

Keeping feast days, wearing special clothing, keeping special food laws, and Sabbaths and ceremonial washings... Has nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant.

Faith working through love from a pure conscience is what the New Covenant is about.

And as you said, the law has nothing to do with faith!


JLB

 

[eddif]

You have completely misunderstood that Paul was warning these Gentile Christians of the curse for those who don't continue in doing all the law, as they were being influenced by JUDAIZERS !

This warning was given to saved Christian!

To Love The Lord and your neighbor was God's Royal Law, long before Moses Law.

Keeping feast days, wearing special clothing, keeping special food laws, and Sabbaths and ceremonial washings... Has nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant.

Faith working through love from a pure conscience is what the New Covenant is about.

And as you said, the law has nothing to do with faith!


JLB

I realize the circumcision party was trying to lead Christian Gentiles into bondage (bad). Types and shadows are not realities (the body is Christ).

"Keeping feast days, wearing special clothing, keeping special food laws, and Sabbaths and ceremonial washings... Has nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant."

I agree that the food laws, sabbaths, etc. do not make you holy / righteous, but symbols do point to the special day of the cross and what Jesus accomplished on that cross. The resurrection is another special day. Using the shadows of the old covenant to help us understand what Jesus accomplished is not bad.

Fear of using the law lawfully might take away from the Bible; just as making the law symbols a reality for righteousness adds to Bible meaning.

Romans 1:19-20
Lets us use creation as a learning tool. You can turn around and wrongly worship nature (bad). Looking at creation for its original purpose is good.

Talking about the law as a schoolmaster will not do harm for established Christians.

Former idol worshipers are allowed to avoid food offered to idols, because of conscience (the practice was bad , but the idols were nothing).

Using the law lawfully is not (IMHO) something to be avoided for conscience sake (the law was to be used as a schoolmaster - - good).

Is discussion of the law bad? Is the law so terrible that it can not be discussed? Two no answers .

Is the law good enough to take you to heaven? No the law does not contain Holy Spirit empowerment as a reality (it may contain some good symbols about what is to come).

Jesus is the reality / body. And he does provide eternal life for those who believe.


eddif

 

[eddif]

Matthew 15:32
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

The law was from Moses to John the Baptist. The old treasure and the new treasure of Christ Jesus.

Christ is the reality. Thus Christ does not have to be fulfilled he is the fulfillment.

The law does not become the reality thanks to Jesus. The law stays a shadow pointing to Christ.

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

I realize the circumcision party was trying to lead Christian Gentiles into bondage (bad). Types and shadows are not realities (the body is Christ).

"Keeping feast days, wearing special clothing, keeping special food laws, and Sabbaths and ceremonial washings... Has nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant."

I agree that the food laws, sabbaths, etc. do not make you holy / righteous, but symbols do point to the special day of the cross and what Jesus accomplished on that cross. The resurrection is another special day. Using the shadows of the old covenant to help us understand what Jesus accomplished is not bad.

Fear of using the law lawfully might take away from the Bible; just as making the law symbols a reality for righteousness adds to Bible meaning.

Romans 1:19-20
Lets us use creation as a learning tool. You can turn around and wrongly worship nature (bad). Looking at creation for its original purpose is good.

Talking about the law as a schoolmaster will not do harm for established Christians.

Former idol worshipers are allowed to avoid food offered to idols, because of conscience (the practice was bad , but the idols were nothing).

Using the law lawfully is not (IMHO) something to be avoided for conscience sake (the law was to be used as a schoolmaster - - good).

Is discussion of the law bad? Is the law so terrible that it can not be discussed? Two no answers .

Is the law good enough to take you to heaven? No the law does not contain Holy Spirit empowerment as a reality (it may contain some good symbols about what is to come).

Jesus is the reality / body. And he does provide eternal life for those who believe.


eddif

Agree.

Matthew 15:32
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

The law was from Moses to John the Baptist. The old treasure and the new treasure of Christ Jesus.

Christ is the reality. Thus Christ does not have to be fulfilled he is the fulfillment.

The law does not become the reality thanks to Jesus. The law stays a shadow pointing to Christ.

eddif

:amen

 

[jocor]

Matthew 15:32
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

The law was from Moses to John the Baptist. The old treasure and the new treasure of Christ Jesus.

Christ is the reality. Thus Christ does not have to be fulfilled he is the fulfillment.

The law does not become the reality thanks to Jesus. The law stays a shadow pointing to Christ.

eddif

The Law is not a shadow pointing to Christ. The Law contains shadows pointing to Christ. It also contains many other things that do not point to Christ. Those other things are fulfilled by believers as we walk in love.

 

[JLB]

The Law is not a shadow pointing to Christ. The Law contains shadows pointing to Christ. It also contains many other things that do not point to Christ. Those other things are fulfilled by believers as we walk in love.

The law itself is the the thing that is the shadow, the One who casts the shadow is Christ.


1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Hebrews 10:1 NIV

The law is a shadow of Christ.

The law has become obsolete and has vanished away.


JLB

 

[jocor]

The law itself is the the thing that is the shadow, the One who casts the shadow is Christ.


1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Hebrews 10:1 NIV

The law is a shadow of Christ.

The law has become obsolete and has vanished away.


JLB

The NIV translation is wrong. The Greek says, "The law having a shadow of ..." The author then goes on to teach about the shadow he was referring to; animal sacrifices.

The law is NOT a shadow of Christ.

The law is not obsolete and vanished away. The Old Covenant is vanishing away, but it hasn't yet for those still living under it.

 

[eddif]

Let us go elsewhere.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

I would say this scripture seems to cover:
Food; drink; holy days, new moons; sabbaths ...

I like the general statement of Hebrews 10:1 (with what seems to be a sacrifice, but that reality sacrifice is the body of Christ.

Light source ; Body of Christ. Yields: Shadow back and forward in time. Just about as strange as the human mind can grasp.

The whole solid appearing Law is but a shadow. My little redneck mind just has to give in to scripture.

Maybe a call to Star Treck video folks could show light inside Jesus casting shadows everywhere (Jesus was the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Light( Father sun);
Body (Son moon );
Eclipses (Shadows to speak of Jesus).

God has a mind way beyond us:
Romans 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

eddif

 

[jocor]

Let us go elsewhere.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

I would say this scripture seems to cover:
Food; drink; holy days, new moons; sabbaths ...

These are simply shadows contained in the Law. Verse 17 adds the word is which misleads the reader into believing this is a shadow/reality issue. It simply reads, "but the body of Christ" meaning the church. The body of believers in Messiah are the only ones that should judge in such matters. "No man" outside the body can judge us concerning these shadows.

 

[eddif]

These are simply shadows contained in the Law. Verse 17 adds the word is which misleads the reader into believing this is a shadow/reality issue. It simply reads, "but the body of Christ" meaning the church. The body of believers in Messiah are the only ones that should judge in such matters. "No man" outside the body can judge us concerning these shadows.

IMHO IMHO
The reality is Christ.
The screens on which the shadows are seen is different from OT t o NT. Now at this point I still see through a glass darkly. I will thy and describe the screens. We are into high resolution pictures lately, but photo shop (thanks to a Reba post) may have you seeing something that does not exist. The OT screen is cloudy and speaks of things to come. The NT screen is supposed to be what has arrived (the problem is photo shop is used by some to sharpen the NT photo beyond what the bible says ).

The NT church screen still has some flesh to deal with (I can hear the screams now). The flesh screen of the NT adds a little fog to the issues.

When Jews and Gentiles work together the one new man emerges. The need for terms fades.

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

These are simply shadows contained in the Law. Verse 17 adds the word is which misleads the reader into believing this is a shadow/reality issue. It simply reads, "but the body of Christ" meaning the church. The body of believers in Messiah are the only ones that should judge in such matters. "No man" outside the body can judge us concerning these shadows.

Good Day, jocor.
I meant to ask you a question. When I pointed out the Paul did not go to Jerusalem for many years to celebrate the three times the Law says all Jewish men must do this, you had said that was because 'now' (assuming you meant after the cross) that it was no longer necessary to do that, that it could be done anywhere. I can't find where it ever says that a Jew no longer had to go to Jerusalem to worship three times a year and the temple and Jerusalem were still standing at that time for men to go to.
So I was just wondering where scripture says that Law was changed?

 

[eddif]

Ya'll can go on your direction. As a side comment.
John 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father
John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

There was in the day of Jesus discussions on where to worship ( by semi- Jew / Gentiles ). Jesus spoke of a future time. The kingdom was being preached by Jesus.

eddif

 

[jocor]

IMHO IMHO
The reality is Christ.
The screens on which the shadows are seen is different from OT t o NT. Now at this point I still see through a glass darkly. I will thy and describe the screens. We are into high resolution pictures lately, but photo shop (thanks to a Reba post) may have you seeing something that does not exist. The OT screen is cloudy and speaks of things to come. The NT screen is supposed to be what has arrived (the problem is photo shop is used by some to sharpen the NT photo beyond what the bible says ).

The NT church screen still has some flesh to deal with (I can hear the screams now). The flesh screen of the NT adds a little fog to the issues.

When Jews and Gentiles work together the one new man emerges. The need for terms fades.

eddif

The reality is indeed Christ/Messiah concerning sacrifices, offerings, high priesthood, Passover Lamb, manna, etc. He is not the reality of any of the Ten Commandments, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Tabernacles, dietary laws, laws concerning sexual relations, etc.