LAW

[jocor]

This is The Lord's Name in the Old Testament -

YHWH.

Jesus is the Name of the Lord.

Jesus is YHWH !

The Father's name in the OT is YHWH.

The Son's name is Yeshua or Yehoshua, not "Jesus". "Jesus" is an erroneous attempt to transliterate the Greek Iesous. It is a conglomeration of Greek, Latin and English.

The law of Moses has nothing to do with cleansing us from sin!

The law of Moses has nothing to do with taking away our sin!

I never said or implied that the Law of Moses could take away or cleanse us from sin. (Edited. ToS 2.4 Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence. Obadiah.)

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4 NKJV


And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5 NKJV

I believe both verses with all my heart.

The New Covenant has nothing to do with the law of Moses! Nothing!

The Law has a very important function in the NT.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

James 2:8-9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.​

Take away the Law and we have no knowledge of sin. If we don't know we are sinning because we abolished the Law, then we can't go to Yeshua for forgiveness. Christians have erroneously abolished the Sabbath, dietary laws, Feasts, etc. They no longer have a knowledge that they are sinning in those areas.

​

 

[jocor]

Israel heard the 10 Commandments directly from the LORD (Exo 20). Israel never read the 1st set of tablets containing the 10 Commandments, as Moses broke them (Exo 31:8, Exo 32:19, Deu 9:17). The second time Israel heard the 10 Commandments from Moses instead of directly from the LORD (Deu 5). The Lord again wrote the 10 Commandments on stone and Moses put them into the Ark (Deu 10:1-5). Perhaps Israel did not read the 2nd set of tablets either, but they remained in the ark under the Mercy Seat (1Kings 8:9). But surely Moses and Aaron and the priests taught the Decalogue to each family in every generation in the wilderness.

The commandment about the Sabbath spoken of in Exodus was given with a reference to the LORD as Israel's Creator resting on the 7th day, blessing and sanctifying it [this after making Adam on the 6th day] (Exo 20:11). The commandment regarding the Sabbath spoken of in Deuteronomy was given with a reference to the Lord as Israel's Deliverer, who delivered them the day after the 1st Passover (Deu 5:15).

Jesus, on the evening of the 14th of Nisan [the 6th day of the week], the Last Adam said, 'It is finished,' and afterwards rested on the Passover Sabbath.

"For the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath" (Mat 12:8). I would propose to you that our Creator, who is Israel's Deliverer and Lawgiver is Himself the One who fulfilled the Law; who was crucified upon the cross; the One who instituted the sabbath rest and who is the Lord of the Sabbath.

Perhaps I'll write more later.

I haven't ignored this Gregg. I need more time to respond to this. Been very busy.

 

[JLB]

The Father's name in the OT is YHWH.

The Son's name is Yeshua or Yehoshua, not "Jesus". "Jesus" is an erroneous attempt to transliterate the Greek Iesous. It is a conglomeration of Greek, Latin and English.



I never said or implied that the Law of Moses could take away or cleanse us from sin. (Edited. ToS 2.4 Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence. Obadiah.)



I believe both verses with all my heart.



The Law has a very important function in the NT.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

James 2:8-9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.​

Take away the Law and we have no knowledge of sin. If we don't know we are sinning because we abolished the Law, then we can't go to Yeshua for forgiveness. Christians have erroneously abolished the Sabbath, dietary laws, Feasts, etc. They no longer have a knowledge that they are sinning in those areas.

​

Do you confess Jesus Christ as YHWH [Lord], God manifested in the Flesh, the creator of all things?


Yes or No ?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Father's name in the OT is YHWH.

The Son's name is Yeshua or Yehoshua, not "Jesus". "Jesus" is an erroneous attempt to transliterate the Greek Iesous. It is a conglomeration of Greek, Latin and English.



I never said or implied that the Law of Moses could take away or cleanse us from sin. (Edited. ToS 2.4 Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence. Obadiah.)



I believe both verses with all my heart.



The Law has a very important function in the NT.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

James 2:8-9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.​

Take away the Law and we have no knowledge of sin. If we don't know we are sinning because we abolished the Law, then we can't go to Yeshua for forgiveness. Christians have erroneously abolished the Sabbath, dietary laws, Feasts, etc. They no longer have a knowledge that they are sinning in those areas.

​

• If the law of Moses does not take away sins.
• 
  
• If the law of Moses does not cleanse us from sin.
• 
  
• If by the law of Moses we are not given the Holy Spirit.
• 
  
• If we are not justified by the law of Moses.
• 
  
• If we are not declared righteous by the law.
• 
  
• If we are not saved by the law.
• 
  
• If we and not sanctified by the law.
• 
  
• To Love God and Love your neighbor was God's law before the law of Moses.

What function does the law of Moses have in the New testament?



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

she was raised a messianic jew and went to full Judaism, all for the same reasons as I listed. she was raised to love jews, she returned to the lord, and is kosher/vegan. but as I said this isn't uncommon. jews live together in a community. ever heard of the jewish commuites in: Miami, new York city, Chicago, savannah? family sticks together. it makes being kosher easier and aslo ones doesn't have to worry about the outside influence as much with the way they do it. can and do Christians do this? somewhat but most Christians in America don't and wont. its strange to us.and im not saying we should. just telling you of what the draw is and why.

As far as community the Mormons are like that, too. I knew a family here where the dad got laid off. The Mormons found him a job in Utah, relocated them, found them housing, etc. A Mormon family in trouble is never left alone. Their bills get paid and they are provided food until they get back to work. They need a doctor they've got one.

I truly believe that is what Jesus taught and that is what I see in the NT. Christians are suppose to be taking care of each other as a community, people aren't suppose to be following through the cracks and having to turn to the pagan government for anything.

 

[Deborah13]

Surely you understand that there were many other "necessary things" that Gentiles had to learn over time. Those things were "necessary" in order for Jews and Gentiles to worship/fellowship together. However, things like loving YHWH, loving one's neighbor, obeying the Ten Commandments or at least the other eight, etc., were equally, if not more, important than those things. The Gentiles would eventually learn those other things as they heard Torah read every Sabbath.

Do you mean all these things that Paul listed.....
Gal 5:18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
Gal 5:19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.

and the do's that he and the Messiah taught like taking care of the poor, etc. and this....

Gal 5:22 And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;

He also taught not to forsake the assembly. What I don't see is certain days, moons, feasts as being listed as necessary or that not doing them is a sin.
If those were necessary the council at Jerusalem would have said so because if they didn't and someone were to die not doing them (in sin) they would be guilty of not teaching the Whole necessary truth. They never would have done that, they were lead by the Holy Spirit and taught directly by the Messiah Himself. No matter what I think I cannot argue with their wisdom.

I agree with everything above.

 

[jocor]

Do you confess Jesus Christ as YHWH [Lord], God manifested in the Flesh, the creator of all things?


Yes or No ?


JLB

 

[jocor]

• If the law of Moses does not take away sins.
• 
  
• If the law of Moses does not cleanse us from sin.
• 
  
• If by the law of Moses we are not given the Holy Spirit.
• 
  
• If we are not justified by the law of Moses.
• 
  
• If we are not declared righteous by the law.
• 
  
• If we are not saved by the law.
• 
  
• If we and not sanctified by the law.
• 
  
• To Love God and Love your neighbor was God's law before the law of Moses.

What function does the law of Moses have in the New testament?

JLB

Reread post #181

 

[Gregg]

I haven't ignored this Gregg. I need more time to respond to this. Been very busy.

I understand. Also, I apologize for that post being incomplete. There is a gap between the 3rd and 4th paragraphs requiring explanation.

If you want to discuss that post in a private conversation, I would be willing.

 

[jocor]

Do you mean all these things that Paul listed.....
Gal 5:18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
Gal 5:19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.

and the do's that he and the Messiah taught like taking care of the poor, etc. and this....

Gal 5:22 And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;

All those things are how to fulfill "love thy neighbor".

He also taught not to forsake the assembly. What I don't see is certain days, moons, feasts as being listed as necessary or that not doing them is a sin.
If those were necessary the council at Jerusalem would have said so because if they didn't and someone were to die not doing them (in sin) they would be guilty of not teaching the Whole necessary truth. They never would have done that, they were lead by the Holy Spirit and taught directly by the Messiah Himself. No matter what I think I cannot argue with their wisdom.

There are two problems with your reply.

1) You just listed a bunch of things from Galatians 5 that were very necessary, but were not mentioned at the Jerusalem council. Therefore, your argument does not stand.
2) The council barely touched on the "Whole necessary truth." They only touched on four important things. Therefore, your statement, "They never would have done that" is wrong because they DID do that. It was not their intent to give the whole necessary truth, but to deal with the concerns at hand.

 

[JLB]

Reread post #181

Your post has no answers to these questions.

• If the law of Moses does not take away sins.
• If the law of Moses does not cleanse us from sin.
• If by the law of Moses we are not given the Holy Spirit.
• If we are not justified by the law of Moses.
• If we are not declared righteous by the law.
• If we are not saved by the law.
• If we and not sanctified by the law.
• To Love God and Love your neighbor was God's law before the law of Moses.

What function does the law of Moses have in the New Covenant?

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH!

What function does the law of Moses have in the New Covenant?

Please tell us in your own words what things in the law of Moses that you participate in that are from faith ?

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

All those things are how to fulfill "love thy neighbor".11111

I agree, the Messiah gave two commandments. This is one of them.

There are two problems with your reply.

1) You just listed a bunch of things from Galatians 5 that were very necessary, but were not mentioned at the Jerusalem council. Therefore, your argument does not stand.
2) The council barely touched on the "Whole necessary truth." They only touched on four important things. Therefore, your statement, "They never would have done that" is wrong because they DID do that. It was not their intent to give the whole necessary truth, but to deal with the concerns at hand.

I believe that what was given by the council covers the other one. 'to love God with all your heart'.
And this means no idolatry. At least two of the four of those things were practices in the pagan worship of false gods and maybe all of them, I don't know.
When I said the whole necessary truth, it was in relationship to worship practices and daily practices that would have been idolatry. (negative commandments)
If partaking of the feasts, fasts, and Holy days were necessary they would have been listed as necessary to worship YHVH, (positive commandments) but they were not. And I cannot see where either the Messiah or any of the apostle taught that they were. If they are that important then I believe it would have been made very clear in scripture, just like what has been listed and made clear.
The only Holy day that I can see is clearly commanded is the Lord's Day when we partake of the bread and wine in remembrance of the body and blood of the Messiah. And frankly I don't think that is an only once a year command. I think we can partake at anytime as well as this day at Passover/Resurrection, however one see it. I see it as a remembrance of both.
But I am not above being tutored in the scripture so if you can show me where the Messiah or any of the apostles taught the feasts, etc. were necessary, I will listen.

 

[jasonc]

This is exactly how I said the vowel waw should be pronounced in the name. ee ah oo eh

that doesn't support your idea of waw. and that is modern Hebrew, not biblical Hebrew, there is a difference. I don't feel like learning a language that wouldn't be beyond my abilities just to win a debate over the name that matters but not in the pronucation of it but the intent of saying it. I seldom call god heshem, I call him god or father. when I post heshem its often from reading jewish thought to talking from that view.

 

[jocor]

Your post has no answers to these questions.

• If the law of Moses does not take away sins.
• If the law of Moses does not cleanse us from sin.
• If by the law of Moses we are not given the Holy Spirit.
• If we are not justified by the law of Moses.
• If we are not declared righteous by the law.
• If we are not saved by the law.
• If we and not sanctified by the law.
• To Love God and Love your neighbor was God's law before the law of Moses.

What function does the law of Moses have in the New Covenant?

The Law has a very important function in the NT.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

James 2:8-9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.​

Take away the Law and we have no knowledge of sin. If we don't know we are sinning because we abolished the Law, then we can't go to Yeshua for forgiveness. Christians have erroneously abolished the Sabbath, dietary laws, Feasts, etc. They no longer have a knowledge that they are sinning in those areas.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH!

What function does the law of Moses have in the New Covenant?

Please tell us in your own words what things in the law of Moses that you participate in that are from faith ?

JLB

There is nothing in the Law that is of faith. However, faith leads to obeying the Law. Faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Among those works is obedience to the Law of Yahweh which is the Law of Moses. Faith does not make void the Law. It establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

 

[jocor]

If partaking of the feasts, fasts, and Holy days were necessary they would have been listed as necessary to worship YHVH, (positive commandments) but they were not. And I cannot see where either the Messiah or any of the apostle taught that they were. If they are that important then I believe it would have been made very clear in scripture, just like what has been listed and made clear.
The only Holy day that I can see is clearly commanded is the Lord's Day when we partake of the bread and wine in remembrance of the body and blood of the Messiah. And frankly I don't think that is an only once a year command. I think we can partake at anytime as well as this day at Passover/Resurrection, however one see it. I see it as a remembrance of both.

What do you mean by "necessary"? Necessary for salvation? The NT does not need to state anything in Torah was necessary. The mere fact that Yahweh commanded something makes it necessary. Those things were necessary before Yeshua, during his ministry and after he ascended by virtue of the fact that they were already commanded by the Creator of the universe. You are arguing from silence which is no argument at all.

But I am not above being tutored in the scripture so if you can show me where the Messiah or any of the apostles taught the feasts, etc. were necessary, I will listen.

I need to know what you mean by "necessary".

 

[Deborah13]

The Law has a very important function in the NT.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

James 2:8-9 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.​

Take away the Law and we have no knowledge of sin. If we don't know we are sinning because we abolished the Law, then we can't go to Yeshua for forgiveness. Christians have erroneously abolished the Sabbath, dietary laws, Feasts, etc. They no longer have a knowledge that they are sinning in those areas.



There is nothing in the Law that is of faith. However, faith leads to obeying the Law. Faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Among those works is obedience to the Law of Yahweh which is the Law of Moses. Faith does not make void the Law. It establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

Hmm....
Saul had the Law of Moses but he did know that he should not be killing the followers of the Messiah.
"love your neighbor as you love yourself."

jocor said: ↑
What do you mean by "necessary"? Necessary for salvation? The NT does not need to state anything in Torah was necessary. The mere fact that Yahweh commanded something makes it necessary. Those things were necessary before Yeshua, during his ministry and after he ascended by virtue of the fact that they were already commanded by the Creator of the universe. You are arguing from silence which is no argument at all.



I need to know what you mean by "necessary".

You say that if one does not observe days, weeks, and months it is sin. If that is true then it must be necessary that we do them. BUT I don't see where YHVH included them in the NT as being necessary, do you? He made sure all these other sins were listed in the NT, why not those?
And if they are necessary for holiness then surely circumcision is necessary too. If not, why not?

 

[jocor]

I understand. Also, I apologize for that post being incomplete. There is a gap between the 3rd and 4th paragraphs requiring explanation.

If you want to discuss that post in a private conversation, I would be willing.

I think it best that we discuss this in private. Please fill in the "gap" and I'll address the issue in its entirety. Thanks.

 

[jocor]

that doesn't support your idea of waw. and that is modern Hebrew, not biblical Hebrew, there is a difference. I don't feel like learning a language that wouldn't be beyond my abilities just to win a debate over the name that matters but not in the pronucation of it but the intent of saying it. I seldom call god heshem, I call him god or father. when I post heshem its often from reading jewish thought to talking from that view.

As I understand it, Sephardic Hebrew is Biblical Hebrew and Sephardic is becoming more popular as the language of modern Hebrew.

 

[jocor]

Hmm....
Saul had the Law of Moses but he did know that he should not be killing the followers of the Messiah.
"love your neighbor as you love yourself."

Paul was obeying orders from those in authority over him. To them, the followers of Messiah were not neighbors, but enemies of the faith.

 

[Deborah13]

Paul was obeying orders from those in authority over him. To them, the followers of Messiah were not neighbors, but enemies of the faith.

So the Pharisee Saul had the Law, knew the Law, taught the Law, and didn't understand to love his neighbor as himself. AND the authorities above him, had the Law, knew the Law, and didn't understand to love their neighbor as themselves? And didn't understand who their neighbor was?