LAW

[jocor]

Good Day, jocor.
I meant to ask you a question. When I pointed out the Paul did not go to Jerusalem for many years to celebrate the three times the Law says all Jewish men must do this, you had said that was because 'now' (assuming you meant after the cross) that it was no longer necessary to do that, that it could be done anywhere. I can't find where it ever says that a Jew no longer had to go to Jerusalem to worship three times a year and the temple and Jerusalem were still standing at that time for men to go to.
So I was just wondering where scripture says that Law was changed?

eddif's post above is Yeshua's teaching that worship will be moved from Jerusalem to worldwide. I believe that began when the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Jerusalem will once again be the center of worship during the millennium.

 

[eddif]

They do not need to be included in the NT as "necessary". How do you know Yeshua did not discuss their necessity since he taught much more than what we have in our Bibles? The NT does not list all sins. For example, where does the NT reiterate Deuteronomy 4:2? Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YHWH your Elohim which I command you. Surely you believe this command still exists.

Circumcision is necessary as far as the circumcision of the heart is concerned. It is also necessary to obey the law of physical circumcision, but not in order to be justified or saved. However, an exception was made for new adult converts who were not circumcised on the 8th day. The male children of believers should be circumcised.

jocor
Your post 205

You actually are careful to keep all the elements of law and grace active.

Now all that is needed is to try and make a better sense of what is just a bit twisted. Do not panic when I say twisted. I am still growing in understanding. I tend to be unique in some discussions (just being unique / different does not make me correct, but let us continue).

Circumcision of the heart is just the actual true understanding of the shadow circumcision of the flesh. Circumcision of the flesh was never really about the flesh (do not freak here --- circumcision of the flesh was a physical temporary: shadow / example / type / teaching tool / etc.). When Jesus is talking of the heart , He is just telling everyone that the heart is what I wanted clean all the time. So circumcision is continuing, but as the reality intended from the beginning.

Physical circumcision and heart circumcision are both pointing to a change in the inner thoughts. When the inner man is circumcised that fulfills the law' true intent and the outer flesh does not need to be circumcised when the reality is going on.

Gentiles have the law written on their hearts.

I have not added to or taken away from anything. I just explained parallels in differing heavens / areas.

This is not about me. Hopefully I have talked about the scripture.

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

eddif's post above is Yeshua's teaching that worship will be moved from Jerusalem to worldwide. I believe that began when the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Jerusalem will once again be the center of worship during the millennium.

While Jesus did say that a time would come.....still during Paul's day the temple was still standing and the Jews were still worshiping there three times a year.

 

[eddif]

This is true concerning the Law as it was administered under the OC. Now it is administered under the NC wherein there is no curse.

Well sort of.

Your post 208

Jesus bore the curse of the old covenant. The old covenant had to be satisfied.
I Peter 2:24
He (Jesus) bore our sins on the cross....

Belief in the work Jesus did; places my sins on the cross.

If a person does not accept the work of Jesus, they are still in their sins. This is not a thought I came up with. We can quote scriptures. The Word became flesh and dwelt among men. Jesus lived out the reality of what symbols / shadows were for many years .

eddif

 

[eddif]

There is no doubt the Pharisees added to the law and caused people to break Yahweh's commandments. Yes, they should have known it was wrong. That is the nature of sin. It deceives and slays. If the Talmud does the same, it is equally guilty.

What if you unintentionally did that? Would you still be a liar?

Men intentionally remove the Hebrew tetragrammaton (YHWH) and replaced it with "yod yod" in Hebrew in the congregation I attend. Men removed "YHWH" from the text and substituted 'the LORD" in its place. I won't have any part in such lies which is why I use "Yahweh" which is the closest transliteration of the name I know of. For me to continue to use "the LORD", knowing it is an outright man-made substitute for truth, is to condone the lies.

And
Your post 211

Modern day church folks (let's blame a lot of it on Gentiles) add to and take away from scriptures. Everyone has fallen short.

If we confess our sins he will straighten us out and forgive us. Me sin, well er ah kinda every once in a while I guess yes. It should grieve us that we have become lukewarm in so many things.

We need to use the Law lawfully. Not for righteousness but to understand.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Galatians 3:13 Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish (make stand) the law.
​

The Law stands, the curse falls.

The curse was taken care of by Jesus ( birth through now sitting on the right hand of God making intercession for those who believe in him).

I am not on your case jocor. Just trying to help. I have a long way to go.

eddif

 

[eddif]

eddif's post above is Yeshua's teaching that worship will be moved from Jerusalem to worldwide. I believe that began when the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Jerusalem will once again be the center of worship during the millennium.

I tried to not interfere with you and the Deborah13 post, but I did.

You should go back and answer her post .

About my post. Jesus was saying that the outward practice of religion; is being changed into an inward experience. The law was from Moses to John the Baptist, but the kingdom message began when John talked about believing in Jesus.

I was not talking about worldwide external, but all men internal new birth.

eddif

 

[jocor]

Physical circumcision and heart circumcision are both pointing to a change in the inner thoughts. When the inner man is circumcised that fulfills the law' true intent and the outer flesh does not need to be circumcised when the reality is going on.

Paul was falsely accused of teaching that the Jewish believers living among Gentiles should not circumcise their children (Acts 21:21). He agreed to James' request concerning the men taking a vow in order to prove the accusations were false. Therefore, Paul was supporting the continuance of circumcising children among Jewish believers.

 

[jocor]

While Jesus did say that a time would come.....still during Paul's day the temple was still standing and the Jews were still worshiping there three times a year.

Yes, but they were also worshipping and keeping Feasts outside of Jerusalem (Acts 20:6).

 

[jocor]

Well sort of.

Your post 208

Jesus bore the curse of the old covenant. The old covenant had to be satisfied.
I Peter 2:24
He (Jesus) bore our sins on the cross....

Belief in the work Jesus did; places my sins on the cross.

If a person does not accept the work of Jesus, they are still in their sins. This is not a thought I came up with. We can quote scriptures. The Word became flesh and dwelt among men. Jesus lived out the reality of what symbols / shadows were for many years .

eddif

No need to quote Scripture. I agree, except for your comment, "The Word became flesh..." has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[jocor]

The law was from Moses to John the Baptist, but the kingdom message began when John talked about believing in Jesus.

How does Romans 3:31 harmonize with that? Paul makes it clear that the law is firmly established (made to stand) under the NC and that faith does not make it void. Therefore, the law did not come to an end with John or Yeshua.

 

[eddif]

No need to quote Scripture. I agree, except for your comment, "The Word became flesh..." has nothing to do with this discussion.

jocor
If god will grant grace and mercy I hope to continue to discuss.

I realize you have a redneck gentile to deal with. I apologize, in one sense, but I will just have to take what I have and try to git er done.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is a promise to the Jewish people. IMHO they should be able to celebrate any part of the law: bound and gagged, in prison, in the dark, etc.

I have several reasons I believe this to be true. I hope you allow us to continue.

If the sorry Gentiles can have a Jew describe this:
Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

IMHO this is the Jewish promise in the undeserving Gentiles. I want it finally in both Jew and gentile .

Fuss if you must . LOL

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, but they were also worshipping and keeping Feasts outside of Jerusalem (Acts 20:6).

This is talking about Paul again and yes, THEY were not in Jerusalem over the days of unleavened bread. BUT the male Jews who followed the Law of Moses would have gone to Jerusalem to worship just like the Law says. Correct?
By saying 'after the days of unleavened' would tell the reader what time of year it was, by their calendar.
I don't believe the Messiah Changed any of the Law of Moses, not one single law of the 613 of Moses' Law.
I believe the Messiah taught HIS own Law. Some of that law is exactly the same but not everything. I believe what the Messiah taught was what the Law of Moses was really about, the intent of those Laws, what is to be learned from those practices about life and how we should treat others. And most importantly to have reverence for the Lord.

So if it were illegal in our country to own a slave and I should buy a slave and if he marries while he is my slave and I give him his freedom and he decides to leave, I should keep his wife and children? I personally would find that to be morally wrong but those who believe the Law of Moses is for today would say it is not wrong? If we return to the Law of Moses then slavery will be OK?
Or how about having more than one wife, will that be OK, too?

 

[eddif]

I believe some Jewish persons have the law written in their new hearts of flesh now (born again). I also sadly believe these persons are persecuted for their beliefs. The one new man has existed, but the circumcision party has tried to suppress their growth.

Biological human body symbolism (some out of the law) helps me see us as the tabernacle of gods creation.

eddif

 

[eddif]

IMHO
Gentiles, in a lot of cases, have now come to the point of no morel private worship of God, but are now into seeking to be seen by men. Gentiles have a ton of traditions that are outward and not inward. Gentiles are in the same negative action mode the Jews were at the time Jesus was on earth.

if we are honest we: Jew and Gentile alike: see the need to enter the inner man together. We need to not think that if you have 5 threads and 100 posts a day we have arrived. Even this online posting can become an external tradition (an external tradition, that has nothing to do with a private heart felt relationship with God). Holy Spirit is inside chipping at my religion a lot of times.

Some of the scriptures lately (on this thread) are about the private worship that is not outward and trouble causing. Paul, IMHO, is saying: I was worshiping inside my spirit and not gathering a group and making a scene. My worship was private and internal. If we do not watch out, we will see our version of worship / praise no matter what Paul writes.

Of course I am just a redneck, Mississippi gentile; what could I possibly know about all this?

eddif

 

[JLB]

IMHO
Gentiles, in a lot of cases, have now come to the point of no morel private worship of God, but are now into seeking to be seen by men. Gentiles have a ton of traditions that are outward and not inward. Gentiles are in the same negative action mode the Jews were at the time Jesus was on earth.

if we are honest we: Jew and Gentile alike: see the need to enter the inner man together. We need to not think that if you have 5 threads and 100 posts a day we have arrived. Even this online posting can become an external tradition (an external tradition, that has nothing to do with a private heart felt relationship with God). Holy Spirit is inside chipping at my religion a lot of times.

Some of the scriptures lately (on this thread) are about the private worship that is not outward and trouble causing. Paul, IMHO, is saying: I was worshiping inside my spirit and not gathering a group and making a scene. My worship was private and internal. If we do not watch out, we will see our version of worship / praise no matter what Paul writes.

Of course I am just a redneck, Mississippi gentile; what could I possibly know about all this?

eddif

:amen

 

[jocor]

This is talking about Paul again and yes, THEY were not in Jerusalem over the days of unleavened bread. BUT the male Jews who followed the Law of Moses would have gone to Jerusalem to worship just like the Law says. Correct?

The male Jews under the OC may have gone to Jerusalem, but those under the NC could have kept it with Paul. We are not told what they did, but since Paul was not in Jerusalem, I think we can safely assume the other believing Jews in Philippi were not either.

By saying 'after the days of unleavened' would tell the reader what time of year it was, by their calendar.
I don't believe the Messiah Changed any of the Law of Moses, not one single law of the 613 of Moses' Law.
I believe the Messiah taught HIS own Law. Some of that law is exactly the same but not everything. I believe what the Messiah taught was what the Law of Moses was really about, the intent of those Laws, what is to be learned from those practices about life and how we should treat others. And most importantly to have reverence for the Lord.

I don't believe any laws changed either except concerning the high priest and that by a previous oath by Yahweh. Messiah did not teach his own law. Everything he taught was from the Father.

John 8:28 Then said Yeshua unto them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.​

Yes, Messiah taught the deeper intent of the law, but not to the exclusion of the surface intent. The deeper intent of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is to not even lust in your heart after a woman (or man). The surface intent, however, still applies. We cannot physically commit adultery.

So if it were illegal in our country to own a slave and I should buy a slave and if he marries while he is my slave and I give him his freedom and he decides to leave, I should keep his wife and children? I personally would find that to be morally wrong but those who believe the Law of Moses is for today would say it is not wrong? If we return to the Law of Moses then slavery will be OK?

So, what you are really saying is that Yahweh gave Israel an immoral law to keep? First, that is not a law, but a judgment (Ex 21:1). Second, this applied to only the 7th year. In a jubilee year, the servant could go free with his wife and children (Lev 25:40-41). Third, this only applies to a Hebrew servant, not to a bondservant from another country. Fourth, the servant had a choice. He did not have to leave without his family. He could have chosen to stay with them and continue to serve his master. Fifth, the master could have chosen to let the wife and children go with the servant. Keep in mind that there is a big difference between a Hebrew servant and a slave from another country.

Or how about having more than one wife, will that be OK, too?

Yahweh never commanded men to have more than one wife. He actually forbade it for kings. If someone chose to have more than one wife, Yahweh made judgments to protect the wives (Ex 21:10). Polygamy is not His will.

 

[jocor]

IMHO
Gentiles, in a lot of cases, have now come to the point of no morel private worship of God, but are now into seeking to be seen by men. Gentiles have a ton of traditions that are outward and not inward. Gentiles are in the same negative action mode the Jews were at the time Jesus was on earth.

if we are honest we: Jew and Gentile alike: see the need to enter the inner man together. We need to not think that if you have 5 threads and 100 posts a day we have arrived. Even this online posting can become an external tradition (an external tradition, that has nothing to do with a private heart felt relationship with God). Holy Spirit is inside chipping at my religion a lot of times.

Some of the scriptures lately (on this thread) are about the private worship that is not outward and trouble causing. Paul, IMHO, is saying: I was worshiping inside my spirit and not gathering a group and making a scene. My worship was private and internal. If we do not watch out, we will see our version of worship / praise no matter what Paul writes.

Of course I am just a redneck, Mississippi gentile; what could I possibly know about all this?

eddif

The inward man is of great importance, but not to the exclusion of the outward man. The conversion of the inward man leads to outward forms of worship and obedience.

 

[Deborah13]

The male Jews under the OC may have gone to Jerusalem, but those under the NC could have kept it with Paul. We are not told what they did, but since Paul was not in Jerusalem, I think we can safely assume the other believing Jews in Philippi were not either.



I don't believe any laws changed either except concerning the high priest and that by a previous oath by Yahweh. Messiah did not teach his own law. Everything he taught was from the Father.

John 8:28 Then said Yeshua unto them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.​

Yes, Messiah taught the deeper intent of the law, but not to the exclusion of the surface intent. The deeper intent of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is to not even lust in your heart after a woman (or man). The surface intent, however, still applies. We cannot physically commit adultery.



So, what you are really saying is that Yahweh gave Israel an immoral law to keep? First, that is not a law, but a judgment (Ex 21:1). Second, this applied to only the 7th year. In a jubilee year, the servant could go free with his wife and children (Lev 25:40-41). Third, this only applies to a Hebrew servant, not to a bondservant from another country. Fourth, the servant had a choice. He did not have to leave without his family. He could have chosen to stay with them and continue to serve his master. Fifth, the master could have chosen to let the wife and children go with the servant. Keep in mind that there is a big difference between a Hebrew servant and a slave from another country.



Yahweh never commanded men to have more than one wife. He actually forbade it for kings. If someone chose to have more than one wife, Yahweh made judgments to protect the wives (Ex 21:10). Polygamy is not His will.

About more the one wife, the point is, it was allowed under the Law of Moses. You say the Law is not obsolete and that it will return. If that is true that more than one wife will be allowed again. It would have to be if the Law of Moses returns and is actually allowed right now seeing that you say it is not obsolete and we are to do the things of the Law of Moses.
You say that all men need to go through the right of physical circumcision, just where would a gentile find a Jewish rabbi who would do this unless the man converted to Judaism? Do you know a Messianic who has been trained in this ceremony?

You are correct, I should have said servant, not slave....However, the master does NOT have the choice as to whether the wife and children go free. The servant has the choice of leaving alone or staying a servant of the master forever, in this way he can stay with his wife and children.
YLT
Lev 18:4 `My judgments ye do, and My statutes ye keep, to walk in them; I am Jehovah your God;
Lev 18:5 and ye have kept My statutes and My judgments which man doth and liveth in them; I am Jehovah.
The are many judgements in Exodus that are listed in the 613 Laws of Moses.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Exo 21:2 `When thou buyest a Hebrew servant--six years he doth serve, and in the seventh he goeth out as a freeman for nought;
Exo 21:3 if by himself he cometh in, by himself he goeth out; if he is owner of a wife, then his wife hath gone out with him;
Exo 21:4 if his lord give to him a wife, and she hath borne to him sons or daughters--the wife and her children are her lord's, and he goeth out by himself.
Exo 21:5 `And if the servant really say: I have loved my lord, my wife, and my sons--I do not go out free;
Exo 21:6 then hath his lord brought him nigh unto God, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him--to the age.

If one is bought, one is in bondage are they not? And even when they are freed, their wife and children do not belong to them, the belong to the master and they are not free to to leave with him.

Where do you see the master has a choice to release the wife and children? It may be true but I don't remember ever reading that in the scriptures, it is not here in Exodus where the judgment is spoken.
These statues and judgements, Law of Moses, that YHVH, said anyone under the Law of Moses must keep them.

 

[jocor]

About more the one wife, the point is,it was allowedunder the Law of Moses.

Can you show me where it is not allowed under the NC?

You say the Law is not obsolete and that it will return. If that is true that more than one wife will be allowed again. It would have to be if the Law of Moses returns and is actually allowed right now seeing that you say it is not obsolete and we are to do the things of the Law of Moses.

I don’t recall saying the Law will “return”. I don’t believe it ever left.

You say that all men need to go through the right of physical circumcision, just where would a gentile find a Jewish rabbi who would do this unless the man converted to Judaism? Do you know a Messianic who has been trained in this ceremony?

I also don’t recall saying “all men” need to be circumcised. Gentile converts who were not circumcised on the 8th day are exempt since they missed the appointed time to do it under the Law.

You are correct, I should have said servant, not slave....However, the master does NOT have the choice as to whether the wife and children go free. The servant has the choice of leaving alone or staying a servant of the master forever, in this way he can stay with his wife and children.
YLTLev 18:4`My judgments ye do,and My statutes ye keep, to walk in them; I am Jehovah your God;Lev 18:5and ye have kept My statutes andMy judgments which man doth and liveth in them;I am Jehovah.
The are many judgements in Exodus that are listed in the 613 Laws of Moses.http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Exo 21:2`When thoubuyesta Hebrew servant--six years he doth serve, and in the seventh he goeth out as a freeman for nought;Exo 21:3if by himself he cometh in, by himself he goeth out;if he is owner of a wife, then his wife hath gone out with him;Exo 21:4if his lord give to him a wife,and she hath borne to him sons or daughters--the wife and her childrenare her lord's, andhe goeth out by himself.Exo 21:5`And if the servant really say: I have loved my lord, my wife, and my sons--I do not go out free;Exo 21:6then hath his lord brought him nigh unto God, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, andhe hath served him--to the age.

If one is bought, one is in bondage are they not? And even when they are freed, their wife and children do not belong to them, the belong to the master and they are not free to to leave with him.

Where do you see the master has a choice to release the wife and children? It may be true but I don't remember ever reading that in the scriptures, it is not here in Exodus where the judgment is spoken.
These statues and judgements, Law of Moses, that YHVH, said anyone under the Law of Moses must keep them.

The wife and children belong to the master. He can do with them as he pleases. If he wants to, he can let them go, along with the servant who was freed, he can. It’s his choice to make.