LAW

[Deborah13]

You didn't name and you didn't quote, were you talking to anyone?

I was stating my opinion.

 

[JLB]

What do you understand as the 'law of God'? Where is it recorded?

Whatever God tells you to do.

For Adam it was do not eat...

Of Abraham He said - for Abraham obeyed My Voice, My commandments and laws...

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If the Law of Moses is to teach us what sin is, then if we are not eating kosher, men wearing tallet with 4 tzitzit attached, etc. then we are in sin.
We can't have it both ways.

Exactly!

So why does the church quote Paul on how the law reveals sin, yet dismisses, for example, the literal Sabbath?

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe we are bound to a literal Sabbath, but I also believe the law is how we learn about sin. I'm just curious how the church explains this apparent breakdown in logic. I know how I explain it.

 

[JLB]

Exactly!

So why does the church quote Paul on how the law reveals sin, yet dismisses, for example, the literal Sabbath?

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe we are bound to a literal Sabbath, but I also believe the law is how we learn about sin. I'm just curious how the church explains this apparent breakdown in logic. I know how I explain it.

Why not a literal Sabbath?

What would your explanation be if not literal?

Do we literally not murder, but not literally keep the Sabbath?

How does that work?

Man needs to literally take a day of rest.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why not a literal Sabbath?

What would your explanation be if not literal?

Do we literally not murder, but not literally keep the Sabbath?

How does that work?

Man needs to literally take a day of rest.

JLB

Just as Christ is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying of the law for the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement (for example), yet is a fulfillment, nonetheless, so Christ and belief in him is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying for the Sabbath law, yet is a fulfillment of that requirement, nonetheless.

If you explain the logic I spoke about by saying there is indeed still a literal Sabbath rest, just not on the seventh day anymore, then cool, that's how you explain it. It's logical. The only thing I'd resist about it is, Sunday as the day of rest is not literal, either. It would have to be on Saturnday for it to be the literal day of rest. So you're prolly more in line with what I say, that the law is fulfilled in a not-so-literal way.

 

[Deborah13]

Exactly!

So why does the church quote Paul on how the law reveals sin, yet dismisses, for example, the literal Sabbath?

Don't get me wrong. I don't believe we are bound to a literal Sabbath, but I also believe the law is how we learn about sin. I'm just curious how the church explains this apparent breakdown in logic. I know how I explain it.

You know, I don't know how they explain it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You know, I don't know how they explain it.
I'm almost afraid to ask but seeing I've never put you on ignore, I will. How do you explain it?

The law of Sabbath is fulfilled in the new way of Christ, and belief in his name. The one who believes in Christ has fulfilled the lawful requirement for Sabbath rest, just as faith in him fulfills, for example, the lawful requirement for sacrifice on the Day of Atonement.

It is indeed a sin to not keep Sabbath. It's just that the sin of having not 'kept' Sabbath ceases when one puts their faith in Christ, because faith in Christ is the 'keeping' of that law. The Law of Moses does indeed reveal sin. It's just that the 'keeping' of what the law says to do is not always literally doing what the law says to do. Christ's sacrifice on the cross being the premier proof and example of this truth.

 

[jocor]

Well, well, well! Jocor, you have declared that you are not a member of the Christ followers family so, who are you? Eugene, in this vein can be ignored as being an important member of the leadership team but Jocor, Eugene did define this discussion he was gracious enough to allow you to participate in and he has never, as I read it, discarded the right to continue defining this, his, string. Your comment calling him out was rude..

I think you have confused me with someone else. What comment are you referring to where I was being rude by "calling him out"?

As for me not being "a member of the Christ followers", there was no option when I joined this forum to choose "Messianic Israelite". I had only two choices, "Christian" or "non-Christian". For me to choose Christian meant that I believe all the false Christian doctrines taught in churches today, especially their "law is abolished" doctrine. So I chose to list myself as "non-Christian". I am a follower of Messiah Yeshua and live by his teachings AND those of his Father Yahweh.

 

[Deborah13]

The law of Sabbath is fulfilled in the new way of Christ, and belief in his name. The one who believes in Christ has fulfilled the lawful requirement for Sabbath rest, just as faith in him fulfills, for example, the lawful requirement for sacrifice on the Day of Atonement.

It is indeed a sin to not keep Sabbath. It's just that the sin of having not 'kept' Sabbath ceases when one puts their faith in Christ, because faith in Christ is the 'keeping' of that law. The Law of Moses does indeed reveal sin. It's just that the 'keeping' of what the law says to do is not always literally doing what the law says to do. Christ's sacrifice on the cross being the premier proof and example of this truth.

First, you said this in your post to JLB.
"Just as Christ is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying of the law for the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement (for example), yet is a fulfillment,"
We already disagree.
I believe He literally fulfilled God's law. He lived a perfect sinless life. He never broke God's law.
Now I just came up with this analogy so you have my permission :shock to poke large holes in it.
When I look at the laws in the Law of Moses I am inclined to categorize them. Blue being those that we see repeated as being sin in the NT. Pink as those that are clearly types and shadows of Christ. Purple as being those that are examples of what God means when He says love your neighbor as yourself and obey God even if it makes no sense to you why He is telling you to do something.

 

[Deborah13]

I think you have confused me with someone else. What comment are you referring to where I was "calling him out"?

As for me not being "a member of the Christ followers", there was no option when I joined this forum to choose "Messianic Israelite". I had only two choices, "Christian" or "non-Christian". For me to choose Christian meant that I believe all the false Christian doctrines taught in churches today, especially their "law is abolished" doctrine. So I chose to list myself as "non-Christian". I am a follower of Messiah Yeshua and live by his teachings AND those of his Father Yahweh.

Do you believe that Paul taught the truth?

 

[jocor]

Do you believe that Paul taught the truth?

Yes.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes.

Thanks, I meant to ask you that once before and forgot to.

 

[JLB]

Just as Christ is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying of the law for the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement (for example), yet is a fulfillment, nonetheless, so Christ and belief in him is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying for the Sabbath law, yet is a fulfillment of that requirement, nonetheless.

If you explain the logic I spoke about by saying there is indeed still a literal Sabbath rest, just not on the seventh day anymore, then cool, that's how you explain it. It's logical. The only thing I'd resist about it is, Sunday as the day of rest is not literal, either. It would have to be on Saturnday for it to be the literal day of rest. So you're prolly more in line with what I say, that the law is fulfilled in a not-so-literal way.

Saturday is the Sabbath.

When we literally observe the Sabbath and rest from our work, we are showing that we believe, by our actions, that there is indeed a rest to come for the people of God.

The 1000 year, 7th Prophetic Day of rest!


Christ fulfilled the shadows and types that were in the OT, that foreshadowed His work on the cross.

In addition, those who foreshadowed Him as Prophet, or King, such as Moses or David, or priest such as Aaron, He was the fulfillment of these as well.

Each animal that was sacrificed foreshadowed a different aspect of what Christ's sacrifice accomplished for us.


The 10 commandments are commandments that are to be literally obeyed by God's people, although not as the now obsolete law of Moses dictates.

The Sabbath requirement before the law of Moses indicated a rest from work on the seventh day, literally.

When the law was added, it now required that the Sabbath be kept under those guidelines, with the added punishment of death for those who disobeyed.

Now that the law has become obsolete, the original commandment to rest on the seventh day still applies, and has always applied this way to Gentiles.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Saturday is the Sabbath.

When we literally observe the Sabbath and rest from our work, we are showing that we believe, by our actions, that there is indeed a rest to come for the people of God.

The 1000 year, 7th Prophetic Day of rest!


Christ fulfilled the shadows and types that were in the OT, that foreshadowed His work on the cross.

In addition, those who foreshadowed Him as Prophet, or King, such as Moses or David, or priest such as Aaron, He was the fulfillment of these as well.

Each animal that was sacrificed foreshadowed a different aspect of what Christ's sacrifice accomplished for us.


The 10 commandments are commandments that are to be literally obeyed by God's people, although not as the now obsolete law of Moses dictates.

The Sabbath requirement before the law of Moses indicated a rest from work on the seventh day, literally.

When the law was added, it now required that the Sabbath be kept under those guidelines, with the added punishment of death for those who disobeyed.

Now that the law has become obsolete, the original commandment to rest on the seventh day still applies, and has always applied this way to Gentiles.


JLB

2Co 3:2 our letter ye are, having been written in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,
2Co 3:4 and such trust we have through the Christ toward God,
Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to me for a people.
2Co 6:16 and what agreement to the sanctuary of God with idols? for ye are a sanctuary of the living God, according as God said--`I will dwell in them, and will walk among them , and I will be their God, and they shall be My people,

 

[JLB]

2Co 3:2 our letter ye are, having been written in our hearts, known and read by all men,
2Co 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,
2Co 3:4 and such trust we have through the Christ toward God,
Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to me for a people.
2Co 6:16 and what agreement to the sanctuary of God with idols? for ye are a sanctuary of the living God, according as God said--`I will dwell in them, and will walk among them , and I will be their God, and they shall be My people,

Great scriptures Deb.

We have the laws of God on our hearts.

We are to obey what His laws and His Spirit lead us to obey.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First, you said this in your post to JLB.
"Just as Christ is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying of the law for the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement (for example), yet is a fulfillment,"
We already disagree.

Hebrews explains how he is the fulfillment of the sacrifice outside the city that is to be made in accordance with The Day of Atonement. Do you still disagree?

You see, Deborah, if Christ is not a fulfillment of the law of sacrifice for sin as I'm saying he was, and which you are disagreeing with, then the people of God still owe the debt of a literal Day of Atonement.

I believe He literally fulfilled God's law. He lived a perfect sinless life. He never broke God's law.

That he did. But do you think the context of Matthew 5:17-19 NASB indicates that the fulfillment Jesus is talking about there is him personally keeping the law perfectly, or rather that he is saying that by his coming the law will be fulfilled by all of us, not abolished?

Now I just came up with this analogy so you have my permission :shock to poke large holes in it.

Analogy? You lost me.

When I look at the laws in the Law of Moses I am inclined to categorize them. Blue being those that we see repeated as being sin in the NT. Pink as those that are clearly types and shadows of Christ. Purple as being those that are examples of what God means when He says love your neighbor as yourself and obey God even if it makes no sense to you why He is telling you to do something.

The point being, ALL of these colors of laws get fulfilled, not abolished (he said he did not come to do that), through Christ, and faith in Christ. It's just that people automatically think 'literal keeping' when they hear about the law being fulfilled. But even they will concede that Christ is the fulfillment of the law for sacrifice for sin, yet he is not a literal fulfillment of the law. But a fulfillment of the law, nonetheless--that's my point.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Saturday is the Sabbath.

When we literally observe the Sabbath and rest from our work, we are showing that we believe, by our actions, that there is indeed a rest to come for the people of God.

The 1000 year, 7th Prophetic Day of rest!


Christ fulfilled the shadows and types that were in the OT, that foreshadowed His work on the cross.

In addition, those who foreshadowed Him as Prophet, or King, such as Moses or David, or priest such as Aaron, He was the fulfillment of these as well.

Each animal that was sacrificed foreshadowed a different aspect of what Christ's sacrifice accomplished for us.


The 10 commandments are commandments that are to be literally obeyed by God's people, although not as the now obsolete law of Moses dictates.

The Sabbath requirement before the law of Moses indicated a rest from work on the seventh day, literally.

When the law was added, it now required that the Sabbath be kept under those guidelines, with the added punishment of death for those who disobeyed.

Now that the law has become obsolete, the original commandment to rest on the seventh day still applies, and has always applied this way to Gentiles.


JLB

I just have one question.
If, as you say, "Christ fulfilled the shadows and types that were in the OT", which includes the Sabbath rest, then why do we still have to keep it literally? Because if the animal sacrifices were also shadows and types of Christ's coming work, which he then fulfilled/satisfied on the cross, but we agree it is for that very reason (he satisfied them) that the people of God don't have to literally keep those anymore, why is that not also true for the Sabbath shadow he fulfilled?

 

[JLB]

I just have one question.
If, as you say, "Christ fulfilled the shadows and types that were in the OT", which includes the Sabbath rest, then why do we still have to keep it literally? Because if the animal sacrifices were also shadows and types of Christ's coming work, which he then fulfilled/satisfied on the cross, but we agree it is for that very reason (he satisfied them) that the people of God don't have to literally keep those anymore, why is that not also true for the Sabbath shadow he fulfilled?

Christ paid the price for our sin of murder.

Why then are we still obligated to literally not murder?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christ paid the price for our sin of murder.

Why then are we still obligated to literally not murder?


JLB

He paid the penalty for our murders. He is not the fulfillment of 'do not murder' such that we do not have to 'do not murder' anymore. But he is a fulfillment of 'keep Sabbath' such that we do not have to keep the literal Sabbath anymore.

 

[JLB]

But he is a fulfillment of 'keep Sabbath' such that we do not have to keep the literal Sabbath anymore.

Ok, let's discuss the scripture you have for this.


JLB