LAW

[jocor]

I just have one question.
If, as you say, "Christ fulfilled the shadows and types that were in the OT", which includes the Sabbath rest, then why do we still have to keep it literally? Because if the animal sacrifices were also shadows and types of Christ's coming work, which he then fulfilled/satisfied on the cross, but we agree it is for that very reason (he satisfied them) that the people of God don't have to literally keep those anymore, why is that not also true for the Sabbath shadow he fulfilled?

Messiah fulfilled shadows and types referring to him (animal sacrifices, serpent on a pole, the rock Moses struck, etc.). He did not fulfill the Sabbath shadow. That will be fulfilled by the 7,000th year millennial rest after 6,000 years of man's working on earth. That is why the saints in Rev 14:12-13 are said to still be laboring while yet alive. It is only after our death and resurrection unto eternal life that we enter the reality of the Sabbath rest.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Master from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.​

These saints continue to keep Yahweh's commandments, including the Sabbath, as written.

 

[Deborah13]

Hebrews explains how he is the fulfillment of the sacrifice outside the city that is to be made in accordance with The Day of Atonement. Do you still disagree?

Don't know which scripture you are referring to? What do you see in this statement 'outside the city'?

You see, Deborah, if Christ is not a fulfillment of the law of sacrifice for sin as I'm saying he was, and which you are disagreeing with, then the people of God still owe the debt of a literal Day of Atonement.

I never said any such thing.
I said, quote...

I said....I believe He literally fulfilled God's law. He lived a perfect sinless life. He never broke God's law.

That he did. But do you think the context of Matthew 5:17-19 NASB indicates that the fulfillment Jesus is talking about there is him personally keeping the law perfectly, or rather that he is saying that by his coming the law will be fulfilled by all of us, not abolished?

Neither did I say the Law of Moses (the before the cross covenant with God chosen people) was abolished.

The point being, ALL of these colors of laws get fulfilled, not abolished (he said he did not come to do that), through Christ, and faith in Christ. It's just that people automatically think 'literal keeping' when they hear about the law being fulfilled. But even they will concede that Christ is the fulfillment of the law for sacrifice for sin, yet he is not a literal fulfillment of the law. But a fulfillment of the law, nonetheless--that's my point.

I don't think it was abolished (destroyed) either. Jesus clearly says He did not come to abolish (destroy) it but to fulfill (complete) it. A covenant is a legal document, once it is complete, it becomes obsolete. If He had come to destroy it, then there would have been no need for Him to fulfill the requirements of Moses' Law.
Matthew is very consistent in his use of the word translated here as 'fulfill' throughout his writing.
Therefore, if Christ fulfilled it, there is no future fulfillment by anyone else.
If He did not literally fulfill them then He was not literally the atonement for sin. If He did not literally fulfill all the types and shadows of the law then none of them have been fulfilled and the curse of Moses' Law is still in effect.
By being in Christ, we establish the law. That is not the same as fulfilling the law.

Heb 8:6 and now he hath obtained a more excellent service, how much also of a better covenant is he mediator, which on better promises hath been sanctioned,
Heb 8:7 for if that first were faultless, a place would not have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.

 

[Deborah13]

Jethro Bodine
YLT
Rom 3:30 yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith.
Rom 3:31 Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.

I am quoting Adam Clarke because I agree with Him and it states it so simply that anyone can understand without sorting through eloquent speech.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? -
1. By law here we may understand the whole of the Mosaic law, in its rites and ceremonies; of which Jesus Christ was the subject and the end. All that law had respect to him; and the doctrine of faith in Christ Jesus, which the Christian religion proclaimed, established the very claims and demands of that law, by showing that all was accomplished in the passion and death of Christ, for, without shedding of blood, the law would allow of no remission; and Jesus was that Lamb of God which was slain from the foundation of the world, in whose blood we have redemption, even the remission of sins.

2. We may understand, also, the moral law, that which relates to the regulation of the manners or conduct of men. This law also was established by the doctrine of salvation by faith; because this faith works by love, and love is the principle of obedience: and whosoever receives salvation through faith in Christ, receives power to live in holy obedience to every moral precept; for such are God's workmanship, created anew in Christ Jesus, unto good works; in which they find it their duty and their interest incessantly to live."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/romans/3.htm

 

[Sinthesis]

All people Jew and Gentile alike, are under the law of God.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?




JLB

What do you understand as the 'law of God'? Where is it recorded?

Whatever God tells you to do.

For Adam it was do not eat...

Of Abraham He said - for Abraham obeyed My Voice, My commandments and laws...

JLB

What do you understand as the 'law of God'? If you believe the law of God is 'whatever God tells you to do' and have no scriptures to provide guidance as to what that might be, then by what authority can you criticize anyone for failing to live by whatever law of God they believe they've been told?

 

[Sinthesis]

Jesus spent the sabbath after His crucifixion in the grave. How can we literally fulfill a sabbath rest any better? By doing even less work than a corpse? He didn't even stinketh on the sabbath! He fulfilled the sabbath so we don't have to. It is now a choice we can make as how to best use this time, as long as we realize that our salvation is already secure, and nothing we do or do not will make it any more secure. That is our rest; from trying to work our way into Heaven.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I think you have confused me with someone else. What comment are you referring to where I was being rude by "calling him out"?

I don't recall the post number but it was a way back when He mentioned Salvation and you came down on him and told him this issue has naught to do with Salvation.

And no, I have memory issues but you vare the correct person.

As for me not being "a member of the Christ followers", there was no option when I joined this forum to choose "Messianic Israelite". I had only two choices, "Christian" or "non-Christian". For me to choose Christian meant that I believe all the false Christian doctrines taught in churches today, especially their "law is abolished" doctrine. So I chose to list myself as "non-Christian". I am a follower of Messiah Yeshua and live by his teachings AND those of his Father Yahweh.

I want you to understand something here. The Jewish in me is on my mother's side making of no value to (Edited, ToS 2.4, trolling. Obadiah) Jews. That, in Jewish eyes makes me a Gentile, a tag I am not ashamed of, nor do I fear the Half Jew tag because they are all of no value at all.

I am a teacher and I am often attacked for teaqching the value of the Law but I am a Christian Teacher, much like a little Paul/Saul. (Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. "Address issues not personalities. " Obadiah) Saul was a great man in the Jewish Faith until he was called and became a Messianic Christian that under threat of death did not deny Yashua but very clearly, right under your avatar you have associated yourself with Jewish and Gentile Atheists... that's a sad position to proclaim.

(Edited ToS 2.4, judging what can only be known by God. "Respect where people are in their spiritual walk" Obadiah)

Now, Welcome but please, properly identify yourself as a believer and back to the topic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok, let's discuss the scripture you have for this.


JLB

"1 ...a promise remains of entering His rest... 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us...3 ...we who have believed enter that rest..." (Hebrews 4:1-3 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First, you said this in your post to JLB.
"Just as Christ is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying of the law for the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement (for example), yet is a fulfillment,"
We already disagree.

Deborah, you lost me. You're going to have to back up to here and explain what it is exactly that you do not agree with in the above. Then let's start over and go from there.

 

[JLB]

What do you understand as the 'law of God'? If you believe the law of God is 'whatever God tells you to do' and have no scriptures to provide guidance as to what that might be, then by what authority can you criticize anyone for failing to live by whatever law of God they believe they've been told?

Criticize?

A person can seem to do what the bible says and harbor hatred inwardly, or be bitter...

A person can be perfect in their own eyes and fulfill their religion in every way like Saul of Tarsus, a Hebrew of Hebrew's, concerning the law, a Pharisee , blameless according to the righteousness of the law.

Yet, at the same time, persecuting the Church of God!


What bible verses did Abraham go by to have the Lord Testify of him this way ; Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5


or Job -


Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" Job 1:8


This was said of Job, by the Lord Himself, and Job had no bible.


However, we would not know these things without the scriptures to teach us... to teach us that, even though we have the written things concerning the law of God, without relationship with Him we are lost, bible or not.



JLB

 

[JLB]

"1 ...a promise remains of entering His rest... 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us...3 ...we who have believed enter that rest..." (Hebrews 4:1-3 NASB)

Great scripture!

I agree this shows there is a rest to come.

I agree that we who believe, and continue to believe, will be a partaker of that very rest, when it comes.


I don't see where it says, Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, so that we don't need to rest from our work, one day a week.

That would be the scripture I would like to discuss with you.





JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, you lost me. You're going to have to back up to here and explain what it is exactly that you do not agree with in the above. Then let's start over and go from there.

First, you said this in your post to JLB.
"Just as Christ is not a literal fulfillment and satisfying of the law for the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement (for example), yet is a fulfillment,"
We already disagree.

I don't agree with this whole statement. You say He did NOT literally fulfill the covenant called the Law of Moses.
I believe He did literally fulfill (complete) that covenant called the Law of Moses that God made with the Hebrew children. Moses being the mediator of that covenant.
The Jews today do not believe the Messiah fulfilled that covenant. They still look to the Law of Moses and to Moses as their mediator.
God did not make that covenant agreement with the whole world. He did not make that covenant with anyone before Mt Sinai.
When we reconcile ourselves to God through the Messiah we agree to the new covenant agreement, which is not a lawless covenant.
After His resurrection He spent 40 days teaching His commands and He 'caught up' Paul and taught him. So we can be confident that what they taught are the commands that He taught them as new covenant teachers.
We are not at liberty nor do we have the authority to change one single jot or tittle of the 10 Commandments. So if one believes they are for us, as a covenant agreement, then they MUST observe the 7th day Sabbath. If they don't they are Not fulfilling the Law of Moses.
We can't just willy nilly decide to change any one of God's covenants. They are legal documents. They will stand up in His court of law.
Jas 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;
Jas 2:8 If, indeed, royal law ye complete, according to the Writing, `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,' --ye do well;
What Writing is James talking about? Did this saying just come with the Law of Moses? I propose it did not. It is in the Torah before the Law of Moses was ever given.

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus spent the sabbath after His crucifixion in the grave. How can we literally fulfill a sabbath rest any better? By doing even less work than a corpse? He didn't even stinketh on the sabbath! He fulfilled the sabbath so we don't have to. It is now a choice we can make as how to best use this time, as long as we realize that our salvation is already secure, and nothing we do or do not will make it any more secure. That is our rest; from trying to work our way into Heaven.

:amen

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Great scripture!

I agree this shows there is a rest to come.

I agree that we who believe, and continue to believe, will be a partaker of that very rest, when it comes.

He's talking about a rest that is here now that those who believe enter into now:

"1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.3 For we who have believed enter that rest" (Hebrews 4:1-3 NASB)

And, surely, there is a future aspect to this rest as well, when we actually enter into the kingdom of God.

I don't see where it says, Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, so that we don't need to rest from our work, one day a week.

That would be the scripture I would like to discuss with you.

Just so you understand, it's 'Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath'. IOW, when we believe in Christ we fulfill/ satisfy God's requirement for Sabbath Rest, just as when we believe in Christ we fulfill/ satisfy God's requirement for sacrifice for sin. It's not that Jesus did those things for us. For lack of better grammar, Jesus is those things. See the difference?

When we enter into the appointed Day of salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ, we cease from our labor of sin through that faith:

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. " (Romans 13:8-10 NASB capitals in original)

Paul tells us to make sure none of us has come short of this fulfilling of the law through our faith in Christ:

"1 Therefore, let us fear if...anyone of you may seem to have come short of it. " (Hebrews 4:1 NASB)

If we'ere not walking in our faith then we've fallen short of God's appointed Rest. We know if we have fallen short of it, or not, by if we are obedient to love others as ourselves. Love is the fulfillment of the law such that there is no outstanding debt of law--any law, including the Sabbath--remaining for the one who loves others as themselves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't agree with this whole statement. You say He did NOT literally fulfill the covenant called the Law of Moses.

Jesus is not literally a bull, so how is he a literal fulfillment of the law? Yet he is a fulfillment of the law nonetheless. This being true, we can then understand how Jesus is also the fulfillment of the law for Sabbath Rest. The point being, you do not have to keep a literal Sabbath to fulfill God's requirement for Sabbath Rest, just as you do not have to sacrifice a literal bull to fulfill God's requirement for sacrifice for sin. Faith in Christ does that. In fact, it does it so well that it sets aside the necessity to fulfill those requirements in the old way prescribed by Moses.

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus is not literally a bull, so how is he a literal fulfillment of the law? Yet he is a fulfillment of the law nonetheless. This being true, we can then understand how Jesus is also the fulfillment of the law for Sabbath Rest. The point being, you do not have to keep a literal Sabbath to fulfill God's requirement for Sabbath Rest, just as you do not have to sacrifice a literal bull to fulfill God's requirement for sacrifice for sin. Faith in Christ does that. In fact, it does it so well that it sets aside the necessity to fulfill those requirements in the old way prescribed by Moses.

This is what I believe....
The bull was never the literal atonement for sin. It was just a type. Jesus was and is the literal atonement for sin.
Jesus is also the fulfillment of the Sabbath rest, the literal fulfillment. He is our rest.

Just as the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself was always the commandment of God, right from the beginning. That is what I believe.
When Cain murdered Abel he broke this commandment.

When God had Moses' write down all these laws the people said, yes, before they even knew what those laws were going to look like. They were arrogant and proud and boy did God teach them about who they really were. How we all are, until God straightens us out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is what I believe....
The bull was never the literal atonement for sin. It was just a type. Jesus was and is the literal atonement for sin.

You're missing the point. The law required a literal bull. Jesus is not a literal bull, yet he is accepted by God as the fulfilling of the requirement for a sacrifice of a bull for sin. It is in that way that he is NOT a literal fulfillment of the law of Moses for a sacrifice for sin, yet he fulfills the law of Moses for a sacrifice for sin. If he did not fulfill it, then the people of God would still need to sacrifice a bull for their sins. But Hebrews tells us that we don't have to anymore--and for the reason I just said.

 

[Deborah13]

You're missing the point. The law required a literal bull. Jesus is not a literal bull, yet he is accepted by God as the fulfilling of the requirement for a sacrifice of a bull for sin. It is in that way that he is NOT a literal fulfillment of the law of Moses for a sacrifice for sin, yet he fulfills the law of Moses for a sacrifice for sin. If he did not fulfill it, then the people of God would still need to sacrifice a bull for their sins. But Hebrews tells us that we don't have to anymore--and for the reason I just said.

I think you have it backwards.....
The bull was temporarily accepted by God until the literal (true) sacrifice for atonement came.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Jesus was/is the "very image of the things."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you have it backwards.....
The bull was temporarily accepted by God until the literal (true) sacrifice for atonement came.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Jesus was/is the "very image of the things."

If I was talking about what the reality is and what the shadow is, yes, I would have it backwards. But what I am talking about, and which you are not grasping, is the law requires a bull to be sacrificed for sin. Jesus is not a bull, yet he is the fulfillment of the law.

When you can understand that, then you'll be able to start to understand how it is not necessary to keep a literal Mosaic Sabbath to satisfy the requirement for Sabbath, but satisfy it nonetheless.

 

[eddif]

Romans 2:11
11 For there is no respect of persons with God
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

IMHO, we are now discussing the need for us to all admitt our sins, and become one in Christ.

As a gentile I come from a people that did not have the auricles of god. Lost sinners without god, and bound for hell.

Gentiles need missionaries. They are in great need.

Jewish persons learn that they sinned, while having all the information about god. The prophets have already visited the Jewish people of god.

We should join together as one new man. Sure there are piles of broken down wall that once seperated us.

There is no Jew, Gentile, weak, strong, male, female, bond, free, (etc.) in Christ Jesus.

There is the opportunity for progress.

eddif

 

[JLB]

If I was talking about what the reality is and what the shadow is, yes, I would have it backwards. But what I am talking about, and which you are not grasping, is the law requires a bull to be sacrificed for sin. Jesus is not a bull, yet he is the fulfillment of the law.

When you can understand that, then you'll be able to start to understand how it is not necessary to keep a literal Mosaic Sabbath to satisfy the requirement for Sabbath, but satisfy it nonetheless.

I agree with you that it's not required for us to literally keep the Mosaic requirement of the Sabbath, for those ordinances were added to the original Sabbath requirement to rest one day a week, before the law was added.

Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."
Luke 24:44

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

The sacrifice of animals foreshadowed the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.

The Sabbath was designed for man to rest from his work each week, and will have its final fulfillment in the millennium.

Never the less, Jesus said -

And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Mark 2:27


The Sabbath was made for man, unlike the commandment to "not lie", or "do not commit adultery" which brings the reward of eternal damnation in the lake of fire if not obeyed.




JLB