th1b.taylor
Member
JB,
She's right. The sacrifices were temporary and were an imperfect foreshadow of Jesus and His work for us. Great Post Deb.
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She's right. The sacrifices were temporary and were an imperfect foreshadow of Jesus and His work for us. Great Post Deb.
th1b.taylor
Member
I agree with what you are saying here and I do not know a better way to put it to folks. But, at the same time you have a tilted view when compared to mine.
Bulls were never the fulfillment of the Law of Sin Payment. If they had been the offering would have been permanent when offered the first time and the Law was clear that it was never forever but was to be a recurring event. On the flip side Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, was forever.
There are a full menu of views about the requirements for paying our sin debts. And it is a common practice to equate the payment of our sin debt with a weekly worship service on one particular day.
This comes about from insufficient and/or pointed study. When we look back to Adam, in the Garden, we find God, the Father, strolling in the cool of the day with Adam, fellowshipping. When we look at the Sabbath, we see God at rest, doing nothing!
It is a stretch but I see that we are to worship seven days a week. I also see God as He has taught us of Himself, Omnipotent and that precludes any need for rest but God nothing for no reason. I see a good deal of teaching that, if followed, benefits man greatly. So it is that I see Saturday, Sunday, or for that matter, any day of the week. The Human body was designed to rest.
To rest and to worship God on the sameday seems to me a reasonable thing to do and so it is that I enter into the Corporate Worship, we are called to, on Sunday and by doing so I expand my family responsibilities and Prayer Concerns, just as God wants us to do.
In John 1:1-3 we find that Jesus is not only the God of David, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He is the God of all, everyone of us are here because of His creative accomplishments. Not only did He create us, He died on the Cross to pay for our sins but unlike the Bulls, Goats, Sheep and Doves, He rose from the Grave at the beginning of the week.
Jesus instructed the lass from Samaria that people would worship neither at the Temple in Jerusalem nor in Samaria but would worship in truth and in spirit. I find the core of the issue right there for worship services. We must learn to never wait for Saturday or Sunday to worship, we are the Temple of God making every day our own Spiritual Sabbath.
Hope this helps and does not hinder.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is not in debate as far as I know. I do not know why she brought it up except that she simply can not grasp what I've been saying. But that's okay.
The point is the shadow observances were once very much required. But they are no longer required because Jesus' blood and body is figuratively, not literally (he is not a bull), a sacrifice that fulfills the requirement for a bull sacrifice.
Jesus' body satisfies the Mosaic requirement for a bull sacrifice, even though his body is not a bull sacrifice. In the same way, Jesus' body satisfies the requirement for a Mosaic Sabbath rest, though his body is not a day of rest. We apply Jesus' body as the fulfilling of the requirement for a Sabbath rest by placing our faith in the blood and body of Jesus.
th1b.taylor
Member
You said;
But I still contend that you have this reversed. Jesus is not an after-shadow of the bulls but, rather, the bull was a foreshadow, an imperfect one, of Jesus and the final sacrifice He made on the cross. If I'm wrong, Deb is a big girl and will correct me but I believe this point is the point that marks the center of the disagreement between you folks on htis.
But I still contend that you have this reversed. Jesus is not an after-shadow of the bulls but, rather, the bull was a foreshadow, an imperfect one, of Jesus and the final sacrifice He made on the cross. If I'm wrong, Deb is a big girl and will correct me but I believe this point is the point that marks the center of the disagreement between you folks on htis.
Deborah13
Member
I think I do understand why it is not necessary to keep the literal 7th day Sabbath.
On the 7th day Sabbath man rested from his own work. Jesus did the work that was necessary for man to rest from his own work not just on the 7th day but every day.
Now we that rest in Him do His work, through faith and it is good work.
When David and his men ate the shew bread did he commit a sin? If so, why? If not, why not?
Deborah13
Member
You are correct.
Okay great.
Please show the scripture that states Jesus satisfies the requirement of a Sabbath so that it is no longer required for us to keep.
You will find it just after the scripture that states: Jesus satisfied the requirement of murder, so that we no longer have to obey the commandment thou shalt not murder.
I think one one biggest misunderstandings you have about the law comes from Matthew 5:17 -
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament Prophets, likewise He fulfilled the shadows and types in the law.
The scripture that relieves the children of Israel from the requirement to keep the Sabbath according to the law of Moses is -
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13
Of course the only way a Gentile was to be a part of the covenant of Sinai was to be physically circumcised and dwell in the land of Israel.
And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. Exodus 12:48
Certainly no Gentile Christians had any obligation to the law of Moses.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Everybody knows this. This is not the point I'm making.
th1b.taylor
Member
Then I guess none of us understand.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Here it is again:
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB)
"Love is the fulfillment of the law" (vs. 10). Loving others is our faith in Christ with legs on it (Galatians 5:6 NASB). Our faith in Christ, expressed in love for others, is how we fulfill all the Commandments. That includes the Sabbath ("any other commandment" vs.9). Faith in Christ is the fulfillment of the law.
If loving others fulfills the Sabbath requirement, why do we then need to 'keep' a Commandment that is already fulfilled by our loving others?
Our faith in Christ, expressed in love, is how we obey the Commandment to not murder. Once again, the Commandment is fulfilled by our faith in Christ.
Exactly what I've been saying. So, why do you and Deborah resist the fact that Jesus is the fulfilling of the law?
Correct. It was made obsolete because of what you just said: "...He fulfilled the shadows and types in the law." Not abolished them, but satisfied them forever so that no further action is required by the people of God anymore in regard to those literal old covenant worship stipulations.
Can you explain why Paul is careful to tell the gentile church that Christ is the fulfillment of the types and shadows of the law of Moses? Who cares, if it was purely a Jewish thing? Think your answer through carefully.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I noticed that.
I'll make this easy.
The law of Moses required the sacrifice of a literal bull.
Jesus is not a bull.
So how can anyone say he is a literal fulfilling of the law of Moses? Yet, we all know and agree he is the fulfillment and satisfying of the law, nonetheless.
This shows us that it is not categorically necessary to literally fulfill the law of Moses in order to fulfill the law of Moses. It shows us how it is possible to fulfill the law of Moses without doing what the law of Moses literally requires. Remember this in your next discussion about the necessity to keep a literal Sabbath, or get literally circumcised, etc., etc., etc.
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th1b.taylor
Member
I believe you need to sit down with God and to rethink the way you are wording this. The basis you're building on, I agree with, but your wording is not at all clear and can even be considered muddled.I noticed that.
I'll make this easy.
The law of Moses required the sacrifice of a literal bull.
Jesus is not a bull.
So how can anyone say he is a literal fulfilling of the law of Moses? Yet, we all know and agree he is the fulfillment and satisfying of the law, nonetheless.
This shows us that it is not categorically necessary to literally fulfill the law of Moses in order to fulfill the law of Moses. It shows us how it is possible to fulfill the law of Moses without doing what the law of Moses literally requires. Remember this in your next discussion about the necessity to keep a literal Sabbath, or get literally circumcised, etc., etc., etc.
I see that you, Deb and I agree, in principal, but the manor in which you are saying it is difficult to wade through.
th1b.taylor
Member
I'm just working this over in my mind and when th young lawyer asked Him for the greatest commandment, Jesus boiled the Ten down to just two. Jesus boiled the first four into the first He gave to us and the second covered the remaining six.
As much as the SDAs and Jewish believers want to demand Saturday, the Sabbath, to be our day of worship Jesus did not single it out in Matt. 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
For the very few here arguing, in vain and false vaininty to force the world to follow you, please, do a chain linked study of this passage or look it up in the Nave's Topical. God demands your worship 24/7, not one day a week.
As much as the SDAs and Jewish believers want to demand Saturday, the Sabbath, to be our day of worship Jesus did not single it out in Matt. 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
For the very few here arguing, in vain and false vaininty to force the world to follow you, please, do a chain linked study of this passage or look it up in the Nave's Topical. God demands your worship 24/7, not one day a week.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Christ's sacrifice shows us that you do not need to keep the letter of the law of Moses in order to fulfill the law of Moses. That's pretty simple. But I understand perfectly why so many in the modern church can not grasp what I'm saying--or even why it's important. That's not a put down. That's just the way it is in the church today.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I know this sounds good, but Paul boiled ALL TEN of them down into the second greatest command:
"9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Romans 13:9 NASB italics/emboldening mine)
When we love our neighbor as ourselves we fulfill ALL TEN, not just the last six.
May I note that it is this splitting of the Ten Commandments up into four and six that law keepers do to defend their argument that we still have to keep a literal Mosaic Sabbath. I counter with the fact that Paul says that we fulfill ALL TEN of them to God's complete satisfaction when our faith in Christ finds expression in love for others. Faith in Christ fulfills the law, not abolishes it. You will not be guilty of breaking ANY of the Ten Commandments when you are loving others as yourself. Rather you will be upholding them.
As I just shared from Paul's teaching, loving others is the fulfillment of all the commandments. Therefore, the fulfilling of the Ten Commandments--love for others-- is indeed a 24/7/365 act of worship.
Jesus did say 'love God' is the greatest command, but it's interesting that 'love others' is how we do that. John said it's impossible to honestly say you love God if you do not actively love your neighbor. In fact, loving our neighbor is how we love (obey) God. That's why the second greatest command is like the first.
If you love people then you will not murder them, or lie or covet...
If you love yourself, then you will rest from your work one day a week.
This is the work of obeying God.
I don't resist the fact that Jesus fulfilled the law, because I have have said He fulfilled the law, so now it has vanished away, having become obsolete.
He is the Only One who has fulfilled the law.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Nothing said here in this verse about out faith in Christ, expressed in love for others is how we fulfill the law.
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
Well, I, certainly do not feel put down but, then, I understand what your driving at and, completely, agree.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That is the Biblical definition of love...doing them no harm. Obviously, when we love others we do not murder them. When we love others we have entered into God's appointed Rest. When we love we rest from our own evil labor.
Help me out here. I don't recall where the scripture is that says this. Perhaps there is also a scripture that says if I love myself I will treat myself to a Pizza Hut pizza with Italian sausage, pepperoni, extra cheese, and--you guessed it--anchovies!
The scriptures do say that when you love someone else you have fulfilled the law of Sabbath. Do you want me to quote it again, or do you know the passage I'm referring to?
What Christ accomplished through his body in bringing us into required rest makes it unnecessary (obsolete) to have to do that through the old literal Mosaic way to do that. That's why the people of God don't have to keep that shadow observance anymore--we've already been brought into Sabbath Rest through Christ.
Paul said in Romans that loving others is how we fulfill ALL the commandments. Love is the manifestation of our faith in Christ. And so it is in that way that our faith is the fulfillment of the entire law (because love is the fulfillment of the law). You of all people know that practically speaking faith = obedience. Therefore, faith is the fulfillment of the law--all of it.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Awesome!
