LAW

[JLB]

Being a mom for ever ,a lot of my thinking goes the 'mom way'

We have 2 kids. (Now grown).. I could say to him ,the older, becareful dont be playing in the street.. He understood he could be playing baseball in the street but be on the look out no horsing around..
The same " becareful dont be playing in the street" to the younger and she knew to stay completely away from the street...
God is a BIG God the best His Word is written to us ... to the highly educated .. to the simple minded... and everyone in between.

Great practical wisdom for us today!

Thanks. JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Sabbath is not a "ceremonial law". It is a moral law which is one reason why it was included with the nine other moral commands of the Ten Commandments. It is totally immoral for someone to force another to work on the Sabbath when that person's Creator said not to work on the Sabbath.

Actually you may be surprised to hear I agree with you, but in a much deeper vein than what you're sharing here.

The spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath requirement--besides it being a picture of our 'rest' in salvation itself as allen correctly points out--is also seen in this appointed Day of Christ's appearing in our 'rest' from the taskmaster of sin and how we treat one another. IOW, when you treat people according to the fruit of the Spirit you are fulfilling God's requirement for a Sabbath Rest--and a much, much more important one than a mere day to swing in the hammock out back (nothing wrong with that, lol).

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. " (Romans 13: NASB emphasis in original)

I know where you'll go with the argument from here, so before you go there let me say that what is resisted is that a loving day off from your literal work doesn't HAVE to be the seventh day of the week for it to still be a loving day off from your literal work.

 

[Eugene]

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death (Physical); but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Remember the royal law? Has the Sabbath become our Savior?

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Was Moses told to go up and die on the mount because of unbelief? As the result is he suffering in hell today?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Great practical wisdom for us today!

Thanks. JLB

Yeah, but Granny still doesn't let me play out in the street.

 

[jocor]

2 I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare-- 3 since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you. 2 Corinthians 13:2-3​

​

2 Cor 13:2-3 is talking about believers sinning. What is sin? Transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Paul was referencing sexual sins in particular. The NT does not detail what sexual sins are forbidden. Only the laws given through Moses do that. If all the laws we are to obey today were given by Yeshua and the Apostles, then that means we can have sex with animals, there being no such prohibition against it in the NT that I am aware of. Of course, you can choose to read such a prohibition into a verse of your choice, but that would just be your opinion.

We are not under the law of Moses!

Christ has redeemed those who were under the law!

JLB

We are not under the penalty or condemnation of the law, but we are to be subject to the law (Matthew 5:19; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:6-7; Hebrews 8:10).

 

[Eugene]

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

2Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[reba]

 

[jocor]

Actually you may be surprised to hear I agree with you, but in a much deeper vein than what you're sharing here.

The spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath requirement--besides it being a picture of our 'rest' in salvation itself as allen correctly points out--is also seen in this appointed Day of Christ's appearing in our 'rest' from the taskmaster of sin and how we treat one another. IOW, when you treat people according to the fruit of the Spirit you are fulfilling God's requirement for a Sabbath Rest--and a much, much more important one than a mere day to swing in the hammock out back (nothing wrong with that, lol).

There is no spiritual fulfillment for the physical rest that the Sabbath provides; not for humans or for animals who the Creator deems need the physical rest as well. You say the specific day is not important, but Yahweh blessed and sanctified only the seventh day.

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. " (Romans 13: NASB emphasis in original)

I know where you'll go with the argument from here, so before you go there let me say that what is resisted is that a loving day off from your literal work doesn't HAVE to be the seventh day of the week for it to still be a loving day off from your literal work.

The Sabbath and bearing false witness commandments would be included in "if there is any other commandment".

 

[jocor]

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death (Physical); but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Remember the royal law? Has the Sabbath become our Savior?

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Was Moses told to go up and die on the mount because of unbelief? As the result is he suffering in hell today?

Please do not bring salvation into the discussion. No one has said anything about losing salvation for not keeping the Sabbath holy.

Also, "the righteousness of the law" is fulfilled only if one walks after the Spirit. If we walk after the flesh by not allowing ourselves to be subject to the law, then we cannot fulfill its righteousness.

 

[jocor]

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

2Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, Yahweh made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluyah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this passage. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of Yahweh's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zech 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by Yahweh to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

 

[JLB]

​

2 Cor 13:2-3 is talking about believers sinning. What is sin? Transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Paul was referencing sexual sins in particular. The NT does not detail what sexual sins are forbidden. Only the laws given through Moses do that. If all the laws we are to obey today were given by Yeshua and the Apostles, then that means we can have sex with animals, there being no such prohibition against it in the NT that I am aware of. Of course, you can choose to read such a prohibition into a verse of your choice, but that would just be your opinion.

​

We are not under the penalty or condemnation of the law, but we are to be subject to the law (Matthew 5:19; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:6-7; Hebrews 8:10).

Which law?

The law of God?

or

the law of Moses.


Abraham walked in obedience to God's law 430 years before the law of Moses.

The whole purpose of the law of Moses being added to the Covenant was transgression...

God's law, the law of sin and death, was in the earth since the beginning, as Adam transgressed and by his transgression, death spread to all men.

If we are going to discuss this subject, and rightly divide the word of truth then we can not just lump together the law into one big package.

Law of God, or law of Moses.

Gentiles were not under Moses law.

Abraham was a gentile!


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Why don't you believe it? How do you understand Ezekiel 36:26-27? Do you believe the Holy Spirit uses believers to teach other believers concerning many different subjects? Why not Sabbath?

As for rating you, I know nothing about you. You need to be concerned about how Yahweh views your view of His Sabbath.

Ezekiel 36 is about the change God brought about in Israel as He delivered them from the Babylonian captivity. It shows their change from an effectively polytheistic people to one fiercely monotheistic. Ezekiel 36 is not about Christianity.

 

[JLB]

Please do not bring salvation into the discussion. No one has said anything about losing salvation for not keeping the Sabbath holy.

Also, "the righteousness of the law" is fulfilled only if one walks after the Spirit. If we walk after the flesh by not allowing ourselves to be subject to the law, then we cannot fulfill its righteousness.

14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15


What does cut off from among the people mean to you?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yeah, but Granny still doesn't let me play out in the street.

She just beats me with the rolling pin!

 

[reba]

Gentiles were not under Moses law.

They were if they Exited with Moses

 

[jocor]

Which law?

The law of God?

or

the law of Moses.


Abraham walked in obedience to God's law 430 years before the law of Moses.

They are one and the same. Abraham walked in Yahweh's laws that were passed down verbally. They were later written down by Moses with certain additions concerning the temple, etc. Do you actually believe that Moses came up with those laws?

The whole purpose of the law of Moses being added to the Covenant was transgression...

God's law, the law of sin and death, was in the earth since the beginning, as Adam transgressed and by his transgression, death spread to all men.

If we are going to discuss this subject, and rightly divide the word of truth then we can not just lump together the law into one big package.

Law of God, or law of Moses.

Gentiles were not under Moses law.

Abraham was a gentile!


JLB

Have you been grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel? If so, then you are an Israelite through faith in Yeshua and no longer a Gentile.

 

[jocor]

Ezekiel 36 is about the change God brought about in Israel as He delivered them from the Babylonian captivity. It shows their change from an effectively polytheistic people to one fiercely monotheistic. Ezekiel 36 is not about Christianity.

The passage concerns a time in our future when they will enter the New Covenant and receive the same new heart and new spirit that we have. When did Israel ever have the indwelling Holy Spirit? This is talking about life under the New Covenant.

 

[jocor]

14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15


What does cut off from among the people mean to you?


JLB

It meant death under the Old Covenant. There is no condemnation under the New Covenant that would lead to losing salvation.

 

[Deborah13]

First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, Yahweh made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluyah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this passage. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of Yahweh's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zech 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by Yahweh to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

What was Paul doing in the synagogues in Acts 13, 14, and 18? Did he go there to listen to the Torah reading or did he go there to give them the gospel message of the Messiah?
It's pretty obvious from the scripture what he was doing there, he made a lot of Jews angry at him because many Jews and proselytes believed him and followed him.

To try to say that Paul was a perfect Torah observant Jewish Pharisee after his conversion is disproved by Paul's own words. Torah says that all Jewish men must come to Jerusalem three times a year to the temple. Paul after his conversion didn't go to Jerusalem for 3 yrs.

2Co 12:2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
Gal 1:16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might proclaim him good news among the nations, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood,
Gal 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem unto those who were apostles before me, but I went away to Arabia, and again returned to Damascus,
Gal 1:18 then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to enquire about Peter, and remained with him fifteen days,

Paul at other times did try to be in Jerusalem during the feasts. He was always trying to convert his Jewish people. At feast times there were large congregations of Jewish men for him to give the gospel message of the Messiah to.

I do believe that the early Christians observed Passover at the same time as those in Judaism. I have read that Polycarp did this.

 

[jocor]

They were if they Exited with Moses

I'm not sure what you mean by "Exited", but there were many Gentiles that joined themselves to Israel and were under the law that Yahweh gave through Moses.