Jethro Bodine
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How about answering a simple question, rather than dodging it.
You expect people to answer your questions.
Do you put to death people for not obeying the Sabbath?
I am saying Gentiles who do not live in the land of Israel, were never under the law of Moses.
For an Gentile, living in America to try and keep the law of Moses is ridiculous.
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
I will repost my reply from post #584 for your sake.
No, I don't stone people for breaking the Sabbath.
Heb 10:30 For we know Him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith [Yahweh]. And again, [Yahweh] shall judge his people.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Not only are such corporal punishments postponed until Yahweh carries them out, but He has commanded us to obey the laws of whatever government we live under. The US government forbids us to kill in that way.
Does that mean Jewish believers living in the land are under Moses?
Neither Jewish or Gentile believers are under the law of Moses. That does not mean we don't have to obey what Yahweh commanded through Moses. It means we are not under the condemnation of breaking such laws if we are in Messiah. You will not be stoned to death by Yahweh or Yeshua, but you will be considered the least in the Kingdom as Yeshua said in Matthew 5:19.
If not one jot or tittle is to pass away, then the requirement to put to death any violator of the Sabbath should be carried out, or all of the law has vanished away and has become obsolete.
You can't have it both ways.
Either it has been fulfilled or not.
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19
The Seed has come, The Messiah has come, UNTIL has come, therefore the law that was added has vanished away and has become obsolete.
You claim Jesus is not Lord [YHWH], and God, but you believe in keeping the Sabbath according to the law of Moses.
That would be there very epitome of straining the gnat and swallowing the camel.
Which is exactly what those who follow Judaism do.
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
After the Seed came he said, " Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Show me how heaven and earth passed so I can believe you instead of believing Yeshua. "Till all be fulfilled" includes heaven and earth passing. Putting to death Sabbath breakers is not obsolete or abolished. It is temporarily postponed. It will certainly be carried out in Yahweh's timing.
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18
Jesus referred to the law and the prophets which is a reference to all of the Old Testament, not just the law of Moses that was added temporarily. The covenant that was made with the children of Israel for the land of Israel was between them and the Lord. Of course all the prophecies were to be fulfilled concerning Jesus, in the law, the prophets and the Psalms.
NOT JUST THE LAW OF MOSES, THAT WAS ADDED TO THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT.
Putting to death Sabbath breakers is not a part of the New Covenant, and was never mentioned or carried out.
The reason is, the law of Moses has become obsolete and has vanished away.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
He has made the first obsolete...
The He in this verse is a reference to God Himself.
The Lord Himself made that Covenant obsolete.
It began growing old the moment The Lord proclaimed these words through Jeremiah -
"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31:31-32
That is why Paul dismissed these things in his letter to the Colossians -
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17
The Apostolic council made no mention of any of these things when they were brought up in Jerusalem, together with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 15 -
19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
No Sabbath mentioned here.
It is interesting to note the next verse -
21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
All those generations of Moses being read has never ever produced one person who kept the law, NOT ONE!
[Jesus himself was said to break the Sabbath according to the law of Moses.] Jesus was not subject to the Levitical Priesthood, being a High Priest according to Melchizedek!
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--
We gave no such commandment!
No more circumcision and keeping the law!!!
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
None of the Apostles or The Holy Spirit mentioned keeping the Sabbath, or Circumcision as a requirement for the Believers.
By what authority do you say we should keep the law of Moses?
By what authority do you say we will be put to death "later on" for not keeping the Sabbath according to the law of Moses.
We who believe, do enter that rest.
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,' " although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:3
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
Correct. The prophets were not totally fulfilled either. There are several prophecies, even Messianic prophecies, yet to be fulfilled just as parts of the law are yet to be fulfilled. Are the prophets obsolete even though they were not fulfilled? No. Neither are the parts of the law that have not been fulfilled.
I did not say it was part of the NC. Do you deny that all sinners, including Sabbath breakers, will be put to death if they are not in Messiah?
I agree the OC is becoming obsolete and will eventually vanish away. The OC included laws that were to be written internally as part of the NC.
The Greek word "soma" does not mean substance or reality. It means the body. Paul is referring to the body of Messiah (believers) as the only ones who can judge in matters of eating, drinking, festivals, new moons and Sabbaths.
Verse 21 tells us why they only imposed those four things; because they would hear Moses read every Sabbath day and eventually learn the rest of what is necessary like not murdering, stealing, etc.
They were false accusations. I don't know about your Savior, but mine was sinless.
The NASB, ESV, ASV and others render verse 24 as follows:
"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,"
They didn't tell us we couldn't commit bestiality either. Does that mean we can?
By the authority of Yahweh, Yeshua and Paul.
I did not say believers will be put to death for Sabbath breaking. I said they will be the least in the Kingdom of heaven just as Yeshua said.
The original account from which Hebrews 4:1-11 is taken is found in Numbers 14:22-24, 28-30, and Deuteronomy 1:30-40. In both passages it was the "land" (of Canaan) that was being withheld because of unbelief. The children of Israel were on their wilderness journey to the "promised land," which was a type of the "rest" to come. Joshua brought them into that land or the typical "rest" (Josh 1:13-15; 21:44; 22:4), yet the Almighty again spoke through David concerning this greater rest. In Psalm 95:11, David uses the phrase "my rest" instead of "the land" as in the original promise. Why? Because "the land" was only a type of the future rest to come when true believers enter into the true promised land, the "heavenly country" that the patriarchs of old saw from afar (Heb 11:13-16).
We are currently on our wilderness journey as well. We are heading for the heavenly country promised us. Just as the Israelites continued keeping the Sabbath rest throughout their wilderness journey, so, too, must we continue to keep the Sabbath rest. In fact, the Israelites continued to keep the Sabbath even after entering the typical promised land of Canaan. We, too, will continue in the Sabbath rest as prophesied by Isaiah (66:22,23) even after the new heaven and new earth come.
If the common Christian view of Heb 4:10 is correct, that the Sabbath is abolished because we have entered the true rest, then, to be consistent, it must also be true that all work is abolished since we have ceased from our own works. In other words, if the physical rest is done away with, then the physical labor should also be done away with. However, since believers continue to do physical labors like farming, construction work, etc., they should also continue to rest from such labor as it is written. Additionally, the Sabbath rest is commanded for the sake of animals as well. Is it now permissible for farmers to work their animals seven days a week? Do animals somehow enter into the true rest as well?
Hebrews 4:11 talks about laboring to enter into that rest. It is not something we automatically receive upon accepting Yeshua as our Savior except by faith. That rest will become a reality upon our resurrection unto eternal life. That is why we see the saints of Revelation 14:12,13 laboring right up until death. It is only after death that the ultimate rest can literally begin. Note, also, that those saints "keep the commandments of God" (KJV), among which is the Sabbath.
By what authority do you say we should keep the law of Moses?
... we gave no such commandment!
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- Acts 15:24
The was no such commandment given by the Jerusalem Council.
There was no such commandment given by The Holy Spirit, through the New Testament writers.
There was no such commandment given by Paul.
JLB
... we gave no such commandment!
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- Acts 15:24
The was no such commandment given by the Jerusalem Council.
There was no such commandment given by The Holy Spirit, through the New Testament writers.
There was no such commandment given by Paul.
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
First, I showed you that Acts 15:24 in whatever version you are using (you did not cite the version) is questionable. Many other versions do not include any of the words after “souls”.
Second, the Jerusalem Council did not overtly say, “You must keep the law of Moses”, but they did say they were only imposing four requirements because the Gentiles would eventually hear the rest of Moses every Sabbath.
Third, the Holy Spirit spoke through Yeshua when he said, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Mt. 5:18-19
The Holy Spirit also spoke through Paul when he wrote, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
Here is a commentary on that verse by John Gill:
yea, we establish the law. The law is not made void, neither by the grace nor doctrine of faith: not by the grace of faith; for that faith is not right which is not attended with works of righteousness; and those works are not right which do not flow from filth. Such a connection there is between faith and works; and so much do the one depend upon the other. Moreover, none but believers are capable of performing good works aright, and they do them, and they ought to do them: besides, faith, as a grace, looks to Christ, as the end of the law for righteousness, and therefore do not make it void. Nor is it made void by the doctrine of faith, and by the particular doctrine of a sinner's justification by faith in Christ's righteousness, which is here more especially intended; for though it is made void by it, as to any use of it for justification by the deeds thereof; yet its use in other respects is not set aside, such as to inform us of the mind and will of God, to discover and convince of sin, to show believers their deformity and imperfection, to render Christ and his righteousness more valuable, and to be a rule of walk and conversation to them; and it still remains a cursing and condemning law to Christless sinners, though justified ones are delivered from it as such: yea, the law is so far from being made void, that it is established by this doctrine; for by it the perpetuity of it is asserted, the spirituality of it is acknowledged, the perfect righteousness of it is secured: according to this doctrine all its demands are answered; whatever it requires it has, such as holiness of nature, perfect obedience to its precepts, and its full penalty borne: it is placed in the best hands, where it will ever remain; and a regard to it is enforced under the best influence, by the best of motives, and from the best of principles. It is indeed abolished as a covenant of works, and in this sense is made void to believers; and it is done away as to the form of administration of it by Moses; and it is destroyed as a yoke of bondage; and the people of God are free from the malediction of it, and condemnation by it, and so from its terror; yet it remains unalterable and unchangeable in the hands of Christ; the matter of it is always the same, and ever obligatory on believers, who, though they are freed from the curse of it, are not exempted from obedience to it: wherefore the law is not made void, so as to be destroyed and abolished in every sense, or to be rendered idle, inactive, useless, and insignificant; but, on the contrary, is made to stand, is placed on a sure basis and firm foundation, as the words used signify.
J
jocor
Guest
Yes, man needs a day of rest. The Almighty declared that day to be the 7th day of the week (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown). No other day was blessed or sanctified to be the day of rest.
Yes, there is a day of rest to come (the millennium). Until that comes, we keep the shadow of it.
On this we agree.
The Spirit of Christ within all of us is Truth.
He is in all believers, as He is Omnipresent as God.
JLB
Nobody gave any commandment to keep the law of Moses, which would certainly include physical fleshly circumcision.
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--
Acts 15:24
The was no such commandment given by the Jerusalem Council.
There was no such commandment given by The Holy Spirit, through the New Testament writers.
There was no such commandment given by Paul.
Your attempt to explain away this clear truth, is not consistent with the Christian lifestyle.
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
Why would anyone have to command us to keep the law when it was already commanded by Yahweh for Israel? Know you not that all believers in Messiah Yeshua are now Israelites?
Why aren't you addressing my reply to this in post #610? If my reply was just explaining away truth, then tell me where I am mistaken. Don't just keep repeating yourself over and over.
Why would Paul have to travel to Jerusalem to set things straight and have a big meeting about "keeping the law" if it was "commanded" by YHWH for Israel?
The conclusion of this meeting is written for all to see.
23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- Acts 15:23-24
You see YHWH gave the commandment to sacrifice animals, and have feast days, and wear special clothing and keep special days, and eat special food, for the children of Israel
So for you to say that YHWH commanded this or that... is no longer valid.
Just as it is no longer a requirement to stone people to death for violating the Sabbath.
Just like it is no longer valid to stone people to death for adultery, or any other thing which was required when the law of Moses was in effect.
1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. Acts 15:1-2
Do you believe that the New Testament requires believers to be physically circumcised according to the law of Moses?
JLB
Do you think the Sabbath started with the law of Moses?
Or do not murder, or any of the 10?
JLB
You mean the post where you call the KJV or the NKJV a bad translation.
Thats what you have done to everyone in every thread where they have presented the scriptures to you.
When you are shown the truth about the divinity of Christ, you just say that a "mistranslation".
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
We know he's talking about the ceremonial law from this passage:
"...no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17 NASB)
I know this opens up a whole 'nuther passage to be discussed, but I'm ready.
I have no doubt that the prophet meant the literal Sabbath. The literal Sabbath is binding over the people of God at the time he is saying this.
The interesting point in the passage is the reference to "nor speaking thine own words" in verse 13. Now I want to be as honest and open as possible, so if one of the Mosaic requirements for the Sabbath is that you not speak your own words, please show it to me, chapter and verse in the law. If it's not there then I suggest we see that the prophet is alluding to the true meaning of Sabbath keeping--not sinning in regard to how we treat other people. The 'keeping' of the law that Paul talks about in Romans 13:8-10 NASB. I'll abandon the argument from this passage in Isaiah if you can show me I'm mistaken and that God really did stipulate somewhere in the law that part of literal Sabbath keeping is not speaking idle words.
J
jocor
Guest
He didn't go to Jerusalem to decide if believers are to keep the law, but to decide if they must keep the law to be saved. All believers must obey the law or they are sinning for sin is the transgression of the law.
Yes, they are commanded of Israel, including those grafted into Israel.
Not if they were uncircumcised when they were converted. However, they are required to have their 8 day old sons circumcised.