Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm no longer required to not commit adultery because Jesus did that?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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LAW
- Thread starter Eugene
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I dunno. Could be, I guess.
In Christ, do you still feel tempted to do that?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why don't you just ask me if I've stopped beating my wife.
But anyway, yes, as a Christian, I have been tempted by adultery and other unlawful things.
At least you're honest instead of concocting some kind of doctrine to cover your buttocks and confuse things. Thumbs up for that.
But anyway, no, that is not what constitutes the works gospel that Paul contrasts with the gospel of grace. Somewhere along the line the so-called gospel of works went from doing the works of the law in the hope God will declare you righteous for doing that to simply doing the works of the law ('do not murder', 'do not steal', etc.). So now any mention of 'works', or 'law' in many Protestant Churches will get you labeled a heretic and a wife beater. So many in the church are clueless to the fact that Paul tells us that faith upholds and fulfills the law, not nullifies and breaks it. From there come our erroneous doctrines of OSAS and 'robotic' predestintion.
Jethro Bodine
Member
But why is simply wanting to 'keep' the law ('do not steal', 'do not covet', etc.) by the grace of God we now have to do that somehow equivalent to what you just said here? That's what I want to know. It's interesting how you'll hear gasps of horror and screams of 'works gospel, works gospel!' when you suggest that a Christian might possibly dare to read the Bible and then seek to purposely do what it says Does that somehow automatically mean the Spirit is not doing that in them (as if that were the definition of the works gospel to begin with--which it is not)?
Jethro Bodine
Member
It is because of my faith in Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit that I am quite conscious of sin now. The Holy Spirit does that in me so that I can then choose to not indulge it. That's called walking by the Spirit. The prophet prophesied that God would remove the hearts of stone from his people and give them sensitive hearts of flesh to serve him in this New Covenant. I suggest the very opposite of what you said is true.
Walking in the characteristics of God IS living by faith.
That's where so many go wrong. They think just because they believe in Christ that they are living by faith. No. You are not living by faith until you are literally living by faith, being obedient to every situation and circumstance of life according to your faith and trust in the forgiveness of God in Christ.
First of all, if you are not living within the law of the Ten Commandments then you are NOT living by faith because faith fulfills and upholds the Ten Commandments.
Just because someone is not purposely violating the law in any given situation or circumstance that doesn't automatically mean he is doing that on his own.
Grace was given us to uphold and fulfill the requirements of the law, not nullify them. If your 'faith' is not fulfilling the law then you are not walking in your faith and the power of the Holy Spirit.
How can you not have gone wrong if your flesh has gone wrong? Failing in the flesh is the very definition of 'going wrong'?
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14
JLB
JLB
Of course you have been tempted. We are all tempted by one thing or another. BUT (and it is a BIG but) "in Christ" there is a different outcome if we allow God to lead. It almost comes naturally to chase away the temptation, rather than to struggle to fight it, and try to deny it under our own power to resist because there is a rule against it. (Whatever "it" may be for each of us.)Jethro said:
Why don't you just ask me if I've stopped beating my wife.
This may be hard to understand, but it is almost as though, now, I don't have to give in....... whereas, before, I honestly felt working hard, and "fighting" an impulse was the only hope I had. And that usually failed as often as it succeeded. Now, it always seems there is something inside me that takes up at least half of the fight for me.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I agree with this completely. My struggle is with unrighteousness now. Before Christ my struggle was with righteousness. Before Christ I fought any suggestion to do right. In Christ I fight any suggestion to do wrong.
And having 'been there, done that' many times it is the simple knowledge of 'it is written' that first speaks inside of me in any one situation. From there all the powers of godly reason enforce what I first know to be written about the temptation at hand. The fulfilling of the law did not go away. The old way to fulfill it is what went away. Now I have the voice of the Holy Spirit reminding me of what is written and coaching and encouraging me in what to do. The old way of written words written in stone outside of my body, not penetrating my heart, is what went away and got replaced by the Holy Spirit writing those things right on the renewed softer tissue of my transformed heart.
I like that!
Jethro Bodine
Member
Got that from a substitute pastor one Sunday. Imagine that!
I could instantly relate to it and see how true that was in my life.
I could instantly relate to it and see how true that was in my life.
imho the best exposition and understanding of the LAW may be found via google at [Hell's best kept secret] - twinc
Malachi
Member
That is precisely what Paul reveals by the Holy Spirit. When a sinner reads the Ten Commandments, he or she is convicted of breaking at least one of those commandments (which we all have broken), and the "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). But Christ nailed all the sin and the guilt of every sinner to the Cross, by becoming Sin for us (hence the allusion to the Brazen Serpent in John 3:14), so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21).
What many Christians forget, is that after Christ purchased our redemption with His own Blood, He brought in the New Covenant, and set aside -- indeed abolished -- the Old Covenant as it pertains to Israel. The Ten Commandments are now the Law of Christ (two commandments which can be distilled into one commandment - Agape Love), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (Rom 10:4; Gal 6:2; Jas 2:12). The letter to the Hebrews makes it plain and clear that there is no more returning to Moses, and those who do so are disobedient to God (Heb 10:26-31). The whole point of Hebrews is that many Jewish Christians wanted to cling to Moses rather than to Christ. Paul makes it crystal clear that there is no going back to Moses.
At the same time, Gentile Christians (which includes us today) were given four commandments from the Law of Moses (which are not grievous) which are also necessary to fulfil the Law of Christ (Acts 15:19,21). In the apostolic churches the Judaizing Christians wanted to make the observance of the Torah necessary for salvation, but the Holy Spirit overruled, and the Apostles, and Elders, and Brethren of the church at Jerusalem ensured that Moses would not burden the Church of God (Acts 15:28,29 "no greater burden than these necessary things").
If indeed Messianic Jews wish to be Torah observant then they had better ensure that all the sacrifices and all the other requirements of the Law are practised 100% (which was not even possible for Peter and the apostles). God does not say He will accept a partial observance of the Law. It is all or nothing, and one failure makes one guilty of breaking the entire Law (Jas 2:10). Since the Temple and the levitical priesthood are non-existent, that in itself proves that the Old Covenant cannot be maintained now. During the crucifixion, the veil in the Temple was torn in two, and the Temple was utterly destroyed in 70 AD, to teach Israel that the true Temple is now in Heaven (Heb 9:24) and every believer has direct access to the Throne of Grace, made possible by the sinless blood of the Lamb of God (Heb 9:12)..
J
jocor
Guest
If there is no going back to Moses, then why do you say, "the Ten Commandments are now the Law of Christ"? Shouldn't we abolish those as well?
Also, do those Ten Commandments include the 7th day Sabbath?
The key to understanding Acts 15 is verse 21:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
We don't keep Torah as part of the Old Covenant, but part of the New Covenant. Torah is written on our hearts.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Sacrifices and offerings have been fulfilled by Messiah. They and any other commands fulfilled by Messiah are not part of the NC.
Malachi
Member
When God transforms His own Law into something higher and more spiritual, then that is actually something better, not something to be abandoned. Please note in Romans 13:8-10, which are the words of the Holy Spirit through Paul:
8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
As to the connection between loving our brethren and loving God, please see 1 John 4:7 - 5:3: "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous" (5:3). Everything that John discusses in this passage pertains to loving our brethren, and how that reflects our love for God.
Again, God has elevated this commandment and replaced it with the Lord's Day (Rev 1:10), since Christ is Lord of the sabbath. The Lord's Day (which the world knows as Sunday or the Day of the Sun) is the first day of the week, and the eighth day. The first of the week is significant in Scripture as the day of creation, the day of resurrection, and the day of regeneration. God created the heaven and the earth on the first day of the week, Christ was resurrected on the first day of the week, and thousands were regenerated on the day of Pentecost, which is also the first day of the week. So, for the early church, the first day of the week was the day of worship and the day to celebrate the Lord's Supper (Acts 20:6-12). Also, Paul calls the holy days, festivals, feasts, and sabbath days of the Old Covenant "a shadow of things to come" (Col 2:16,17) but the reality is Christ. Our sabbath rest is already in Him eternally (Heb 4:9-11).
This is exactly what Paul calls "the Law of Christ" and James calls "the Perfect Law of Liberty". It is no longer written on tablets of stone, because it is the Law of Love (see above). That's why we read in Heb 8:7-13 "In that He saith a New Covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayed and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (v. 13). This is why the Torah cannot serve any longer. That is God's will and God's command.
J
jocor
Guest
First, I fully agree that the Ten Commandments are part of the NC. However, if you say they were transformed into something greater and more spiritual, then why can't the same be true of other laws given through Moses? For example, love thy neighbor comes through Moses, but is not one of the Ten. It is certainly not abolished. There are many other laws given through Moses that are part of the NC including the Feasts and dietary laws.
Second, the 7th day Sabbath was not replaced by the "Lord's Day". That is a Christian tradition that causes believers to break the true Sabbath command. Such traditions were condemned by Yeshua. If someone wishes to honor Sunday as the Lord's Day, no problem, but to abolish the 7th day Sabbath in favor of Sunday, BIG problem come judgment day.
The fact that the first day of creation was the first day of the week does NOT negate the 7th day Sabbath since the Sabbath was created after the first day of the week. Acts 20:6-12 says nothing about the early church making the first day a replacement for the 7th day nor does it say the Lord's Supper was always done on the first day. The disciples broke bread together daily (Acts 2:46).
Paul never said the reality of the Feasts and Sabbaths is Christ. He said, "but the body of Messiah" in verse 17, meaning the church. No outsider is to judge believers on how they keep those days, "but the body of Messiah". Consider Paul's other references to the body in Col.1:18 & 24 and Col.2:19.
How can you say "Torah cannot serve any longer" if Yahweh Himself says Torah will be written on the hearts and minds of NC believers?
why no comments - doest know better or don't want to know ? - twinc
J
jocor
Guest
I just scanned through it and hope to read it more thoroughly soon. I totally agree that that is how we should evangelize the lost. Do you know how Comfort views the Law after a person receives Yeshua?
The commandments of God were kept long before the law of Moses was added. [Galatians 3:19]
Why would you think that the ten commandments would be abolished, just because the law has become obsolete?
The Sabbath according to the law of Moses, is obsolete and has vanished away.
Man resting a day every week, has not.
Man resting a day each week, shows he believes in the rest to come.
Do you stone people to death for breaking the Sabbath?
If you don't, then you are not Torah Observant.
JLB