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Limited Atonement - TULIP

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

The souls he saw were those who were martyred during the tribulation.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Revelation 6:9-17


They made a choice to die for Christ during the great tribulation rather than take the mark of the beast.

They elected to be faithful to Christ, and reject the antichrist.
 
The "elect" is a quota, the body consisted of God's people from both Jews and Gentiles. John saw them in the 5th seal, in which they were martyred for bearing the testimony of Christ, "fellow servants" are Gentiles, "their brethren" are Jews, and there's a specific sum total of their number. Jesus taught that "many are called, but few are chosen", the elect are the chosen ones out of the called ones.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ;Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)
Elect, a term sometimes applied in the ancient Church (1) to the whole body of baptized Christians, who were called ἄγιοι, ἐκλεκτοί, saints, elect; (2) to the highest class of catechumens elected to baptism; (3) at other times to the newly baptized, as especially admitted to the full privileges of their profession, and sometimes called the perfect.



John M’Clintock and James Strong, “Elect,” in Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1891), 123–124.
 
The Biblical Idea of Election.

The Bible speaks of election in more than one sense. There is (1) the election of Israel as a people for special privileges and for special service, Deut. 4:37; 7:6–8; 10:15; Hos. 13:5. (2) The election of individuals to some office, or to the performance of some special service, as Moses, Ex. 3, the priests, Deut. 18:5; the kings, 1 Sam. 10:24; Ps. 78:70, the prophets, Jer. 1:5, and the apostles, John 6:70; Acts 9:15. (3) The election of individuals to be children of God and heirs of eternal glory, Matt. 22:14; Rom. 11:5; 1 Cor. 1:27, 28; Eph. 1:4; 1 Thess. 1:4; 1 Pet. 1:2; 2 Pet. 1:10. The last is the election that comes into consideration here as a part of predestination. It may be defined as that eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and of eternal salvation. More briefly it may be said to be God’s eternal purpose to save some of the human race in and by Jesus Christ.

b. The characteristics of election. The characteristics of election are identical with the characteristics of the decrees in general. The decree of election: (1) Is an expression of the sovereign will of God, His divine good pleasure. This means among other things that Christ as Mediator is not the impelling, moving, or meritorious cause of election, as some have asserted. He may be called the mediate cause of the realization of election, and the meritorious cause of the salvation unto which believers are elected, but He is not the moving or meritorious cause of election itself. This is impossible, since He is Himself an object of predestination and election, and because, when He took His mediatorial work upon Him in the Counsel of Redemption, there was already a fixed number that was given unto Him. Election logically precedes the Counsel of Peace. The elective love of God precedes the sending of the Son, John 3:16; Rom. 5:8; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 John 4:9. By saying that the decree of election originates in the divine good pleasure the idea is also excluded that it is determined by anything in man, such as foreseen faith or good works, Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9. (2) It is immutable, and therefore renders the salvation of the elect certain. God realizes the decree of election by His own efficiency, by the saving work which He accomplishes in Jesus Christ. It is His purpose that certain individuals should believe and persevere unto the end, and He secures this result by the objective work of Christ and the subjective operations of the Holy Spirit, Rom. 8:29, 30; 11:29; 2 Tim. 2:19. It is the firm foundation of God which standeth, “having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His.” And as such it is the source of rich comfort for all believers. Their final salvation does not depend on their uncertain obedience, but has its guarantee in the unchangeable purpose of God. (3) It is eternal, that is, from eternity. This divine election should never be identified with any temporal selection, whether it be for the enjoyment of the special grace of God in this life, for special privileges and responsible services, or for the inheritance of glory hereafter, but must be regarded as eternal, Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:4, 5. (4) It is unconditional. Election does not in any way depend on the foreseen faith or good works of man, as the Arminians teach, but exclusively on the sovereign good pleasure of God, who is also the originator of faith and good works, Rom. 9:11; Acts 13:48; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 1:2. Since all men are sinners and have forfeited the blessings of God, there is no basis for such a distinction in them; and since even the faith and good works of the believers are the fruit of the grace of God, Eph. 2:8, 10; 2 Tim. 2:21, even these, as foreseen by God, could not furnish such a basis. (5) It is irresistible. This does not mean that man cannot oppose its execution to a certain degree, but it does mean that his opposition will not prevail. Neither does it mean that God in the execution of His decree overpowers the human will in a manner which is inconsistent with man’s free agency. It does mean, however, that God can and does exert such an influence on the human spirit as to make it willing, Ps. 110:3; Phil. 2:13. (6) It is not chargeable with injustice. The fact that God favors some and passes by others, does not warrant the charge that He is guilty of injustice. We can speak of injustice only when one party has a claim on another. If God owed the forgiveness of sin and eternal life to all men, it would be an injustice if He saved only a limited number of them. But the sinner has absolutely no right or claim on the blessings which flow from divine election. As a matter of fact he has forfeited these blessings. Not only have we no right to call God to account for electing some and passing others by, but we must admit that He would have been perfectly just, if He had not saved any, Matt. 20:14, 15; Rom. 9:14, 15.

c. The purpose of election. The purpose of this eternal election is twofold: (1) The proximate purpose is the salvation of the elect. That man is chosen or elected unto salvation is clearly taught in the Word of God, Rom. 11:7–11; 2 Thess. 2:13. (2) The final aim is the glory of God. Even the salvation of men is subordinate to this. That the glory of God is the highest purpose of the electing grace is made very emphatic in Eph. 1:6, 12, 14. The social gospel of our day likes to stress the fact that man is elected unto service. In so far as this is intended as a denial of man’s election unto salvation and unto the glory of God, it plainly goes contrary to Scripture. Taken by itself, however, the idea that the elect are predestined unto service or good works is entirely Scriptural, Eph. 2:10; 2 Tim. 2:21; but this end is subservient to the ends already indicated.


L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 114–115.
 
They made a choice to die for Christ during the great tribulation rather than take the mark of the beast.

They elected to be faithful to Christ, and reject the antichrist.
It's not about these martyrs he saw, but those who had yet to come. Jesus revealed in the Olivet Discourse that the end will come when every nation - not every sovereign nation recognized by the UN on the map, but every ethnicity group - in the world bears witness of the gospel, that's when the global church of Christ is built and the "times of the gentiles" is complete.
 
The Biblical Idea of Election.

The Bible speaks of election in more than one sense. There is (1) the election of Israel as a people for special privileges and for special service, Deut. 4:37; 7:6–8; 10:15; Hos. 13:5. (2) The election of individuals to some office, or to the performance of some special service, as Moses, Ex. 3, the priests, Deut. 18:5; the kings, 1 Sam. 10:24; Ps. 78:70, the prophets, Jer. 1:5, and the apostles, John 6:70; Acts 9:15. (3) The election of individuals to be children of God and heirs of eternal glory, Matt. 22:14; Rom. 11:5; 1 Cor. 1:27, 28; Eph. 1:4; 1 Thess. 1:4; 1 Pet. 1:2; 2 Pet. 1:10. The last is the election that comes into consideration here as a part of predestination. It may be defined as that eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and of eternal salvation. More briefly it may be said to be God’s eternal purpose to save some of the human race in and by Jesus Christ.

b. The characteristics of election. The characteristics of election are identical with the characteristics of the decrees in general. The decree of election: (1) Is an expression of the sovereign will of God, His divine good pleasure. This means among other things that Christ as Mediator is not the impelling, moving, or meritorious cause of election, as some have asserted. He may be called the mediate cause of the realization of election, and the meritorious cause of the salvation unto which believers are elected, but He is not the moving or meritorious cause of election itself. This is impossible, since He is Himself an object of predestination and election, and because, when He took His mediatorial work upon Him in the Counsel of Redemption, there was already a fixed number that was given unto Him. Election logically precedes the Counsel of Peace. The elective love of God precedes the sending of the Son, John 3:16; Rom. 5:8; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 John 4:9. By saying that the decree of election originates in the divine good pleasure the idea is also excluded that it is determined by anything in man, such as foreseen faith or good works, Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9. (2) It is immutable, and therefore renders the salvation of the elect certain. God realizes the decree of election by His own efficiency, by the saving work which He accomplishes in Jesus Christ. It is His purpose that certain individuals should believe and persevere unto the end, and He secures this result by the objective work of Christ and the subjective operations of the Holy Spirit, Rom. 8:29, 30; 11:29; 2 Tim. 2:19. It is the firm foundation of God which standeth, “having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His.” And as such it is the source of rich comfort for all believers. Their final salvation does not depend on their uncertain obedience, but has its guarantee in the unchangeable purpose of God. (3) It is eternal, that is, from eternity. This divine election should never be identified with any temporal selection, whether it be for the enjoyment of the special grace of God in this life, for special privileges and responsible services, or for the inheritance of glory hereafter, but must be regarded as eternal, Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:4, 5. (4) It is unconditional. Election does not in any way depend on the foreseen faith or good works of man, as the Arminians teach, but exclusively on the sovereign good pleasure of God, who is also the originator of faith and good works, Rom. 9:11; Acts 13:48; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 1:2. Since all men are sinners and have forfeited the blessings of God, there is no basis for such a distinction in them; and since even the faith and good works of the believers are the fruit of the grace of God, Eph. 2:8, 10; 2 Tim. 2:21, even these, as foreseen by God, could not furnish such a basis. (5) It is irresistible. This does not mean that man cannot oppose its execution to a certain degree, but it does mean that his opposition will not prevail. Neither does it mean that God in the execution of His decree overpowers the human will in a manner which is inconsistent with man’s free agency. It does mean, however, that God can and does exert such an influence on the human spirit as to make it willing, Ps. 110:3; Phil. 2:13. (6) It is not chargeable with injustice. The fact that God favors some and passes by others, does not warrant the charge that He is guilty of injustice. We can speak of injustice only when one party has a claim on another. If God owed the forgiveness of sin and eternal life to all men, it would be an injustice if He saved only a limited number of them. But the sinner has absolutely no right or claim on the blessings which flow from divine election. As a matter of fact he has forfeited these blessings. Not only have we no right to call God to account for electing some and passing others by, but we must admit that He would have been perfectly just, if He had not saved any, Matt. 20:14, 15; Rom. 9:14, 15.

c. The purpose of election. The purpose of this eternal election is twofold: (1) The proximate purpose is the salvation of the elect. That man is chosen or elected unto salvation is clearly taught in the Word of God, Rom. 11:7–11; 2 Thess. 2:13. (2) The final aim is the glory of God. Even the salvation of men is subordinate to this. That the glory of God is the highest purpose of the electing grace is made very emphatic in Eph. 1:6, 12, 14. The social gospel of our day likes to stress the fact that man is elected unto service. In so far as this is intended as a denial of man’s election unto salvation and unto the glory of God, it plainly goes contrary to Scripture. Taken by itself, however, the idea that the elect are predestined unto service or good works is entirely Scriptural, Eph. 2:10; 2 Tim. 2:21; but this end is subservient to the ends already indicated.


L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 114–115.

What do you personally mean by Limited Atonement?

For me personally, "atonement" refers to what the blood of bulls and goats did in the old testament, which was to "cover" the sins of the people.

The only place I see the word atonement used in the New Testament is better rendered as reconciliation.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:8-11 KJV


8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:8-11 NKJV


But that aside, I would like to see what you mean by Limited Atonement.
 
What do you personally mean by Limited Atonement?

For me personally, "atonement" refers to what the blood of bulls and goats did in the old testament, which was to "cover" the sins of the people.

The only place I see the word atonement used in the New Testament is better rendered as reconciliation.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:8-11 KJV


8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:8-11 NKJV


But that aside, I would like to see what you mean by Limited Atonement.
Jesus died for the sin of the world, his atonement was sufficient for ALL. Paul compared Jesus to Adam, as much as Adam is the first man through whom sin entered the world, Jesus is the second Adam through whom sin is cleansed from the world. All are sinners who have fallen short of grace in need of salvation, the difference is whether you accept the salvation or not. If not, then you're in denial of your sin, which is the condemnation in this mortal life; in the afterlife you'll be held accountable for your sin before God.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn. 1:29)
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:18)
 
Jesus died for the sin of the world, his atonement was sufficient for ALL. Paul compared Jesus to Adam, as much as Adam is the first man through whom sin entered the world, Jesus is the second Adam through whom sin is cleansed from the world. All are sinners who have fallen short of grace in need of salvation, the difference is whether you accept the salvation or not. If not, then you're in denial of your sin, which is the condemnation in this mortal life; in the afterlife you'll be held accountable for your sin before God.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn. 1:29)
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:18)

Ok, so maybe you would like to tell me what Limited Atonement means to you.
 
Ok, so maybe you would like to tell me what Limited Atonement means to you.
First, Jesus's atonement is substitutional, God's wrath which we the sinners deserve was laid upon Him who had no sin of his own; second, it's justification. Just like the tax collector who went home "justified", all who have believed in Jesus and accepted his substitutional atonement will be justified before God. Satan accuses us day and night before God (Rev. 12:10), only by the atonement are we absolved, otherwise we'll be guilty of Satan's accusations and held accountable, as I said; third, sin and its consequences still exist, the wages of sin is still death, believers justified in Christ still suffer from the consequences of sin - both their own and others'. Jesus's atonement doesn't exempt you from such consequence or make you sinless like Jesus himself, that's the limitation.
 
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third, sin and its consequences still exist, the wages of sin is still death, believers justified in Christ still suffer from the consequences of sin - both their own and others'. Jesus's atonement doesn't exempt you from such consequence or make you sinless like Jesus himself, that's the limitation.

So you are saying Limited Atonement means His blood doesnt remove the consequences of our sin?

Am I understanding you correctly?
 
So you are saying Limited Atonement means His blood doesnt remove the consequences of our sin?

Am I understanding you correctly?
JLB--- David Berkowitz (the Son of Sam killer) is now a born-again Christian. He is a very sincere Christian now. God has completely forgiven David of all his sins. But the "consequences" of those actions of the past remain. He is in prison for life (and he has stated he deserves it and does not want parole if offered to him). He is an example of what Carry_Your_Name is stating. God has totally and completely forgiven him. But the physical consequences for his actions still remain. He is not exempt from the consequences of his sins---even though he has been forgiven.
 
JLB--- David Berkowitz (the Son of Sam killer) is now a born-again Christian. He is a very sincere Christian now. God has completely forgiven David of all his sins. But the "consequences" of those actions of the past remain. He is in prison for life (and he has stated he deserves it and does not want parole if offered to him). He is an example of what Carry_Your_Name is stating. God has totally and completely forgiven him. But the physical consequences for his actions still remain. He is not exempt from the consequences of his sins---even though he has been forgiven.

The consequences of sin is death; eternal damnation in hell.
 
JLB--- David Berkowitz (the Son of Sam killer) is now a born-again Christian. He is a very sincere Christian now. God has completely forgiven David of all his sins. But the "consequences" of those actions of the past remain. He is in prison for life (and he has stated he deserves it and does not want parole if offered to him). He is an example of what Carry_Your_Name is stating. God has totally and completely forgiven him. But the physical consequences for his actions still remain. He is not exempt from the consequences of his sins---even though he has been forgiven.

Here’s what one definition of Limited Atonement means for the Calvinist.

I doubt every Calvinist believes this to be true but nevertheless here it is.

Limited atonement" is a theological doctrine, primarily associated with Calvinism, which states that while Jesus' death on the cross was sufficient to atone for the sins of all people, it was only intended to effectively redeem those individuals who were pre-determined by God to be saved, meaning his sacrifice only applies to the "elect" and not everyone on earth; essentially, God's plan was to save only a specific group of people through Christ's death.

Key points about limited atonement:
  • "The elect":
    This refers to the chosen group of people who God has predetermined to be saved.

  • Distinction from sufficiency:
    While the atonement is considered sufficient for all people, its application is limited to the elect.

Do you agree with this?
 
The consequences of sin is death; eternal damnation in hell.
JLB--- What you say is true. But I think what Carry_Your_name is explaining above is what I posted. We as Christians are forgiven of our sins, but we still bear the "consequences" for our sins very often. Because we are forgiven doesn't take away the "effect" sin has on our lives.

He/She stated:
"believers justified in Christ still suffer from the consequences of sin - both their own and others'. Jesus's atonement doesn't exempt you from such consequence or make you sinless like Jesus himself, that's the limitation".

Unless I am misunderstanding his/her quote that is what is being referred to. If you steal something and are arrested you can ask God for forgiveness and He will forgive you. But you are still going to have to "pay" for your crime of stealing. This is the point I am making. That is how I am interpreting the statement that we still suffer the consequences for our sins.
 
Here’s what one definition of Limited Atonement means for the Calvinist.

I doubt every Calvinist believes this to be true but nevertheless here it is.

Limited atonement" is a theological doctrine, primarily associated with Calvinism, which states that while Jesus' death on the cross was sufficient to atone for the sins of all people, it was only intended to effectively redeem those individuals who were pre-determined by God to be saved, meaning his sacrifice only applies to the "elect" and not everyone on earth; essentially, God's plan was to save only a specific group of people through Christ's death.

Key points about limited atonement:
  • "The elect":
    This refers to the chosen group of people who God has predetermined to be saved.

  • Distinction from sufficiency:
    While the atonement is considered sufficient for all people, its application is limited to the elect.

Do you agree with this?
JLB---- This is the one part of TULIP that I have problems with--I agree with TUI and P. But the doctrine of Limited Atonement does not jive with such verses as John 3:16 "For God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life". I have to believe that Jesus died for ALL MEN(and Women). I love the writing of Arthur W. Pink, but I always had a problem when he got into Limited Atonement. It just doesn't fit Biblical teaching. So, I guess you could consider me a (4) point Calvinist. lol.
 
JLB--- What you say is true. But I think what Carry_Your_name is explaining above is what I posted. We as Christians are forgiven of our sins, but we still bear the "consequences" for our sins very often. Because we are forgiven doesn't take away the "effect" sin has on our lives.

I think you are referring to the law of sowing and reaping.

Yes the law of sowing and reaping is a different law that the law of sin and death.

However, none of what you and I are discussing addresses what Calvinist’s mean by Limited Atonement.
 
So you are saying Limited Atonement means His blood doesnt remove the consequences of our sin?

Am I understanding you correctly?
Idk, you tell me, man. Tell me whether we're living in a sinful and broken world as the consequence of ever pining sin, or in the utopia of God's kingdom free of sin and its consequences. Ask yourself whether you believe sin's deadly consequences, and the answer to your question lies therein.
However, none of what you and I are discussing addresses what Calvinist’s mean by Limited Atonement.
You asked what Limited Atonement means to ME, and I gave you my honest answer.
 
Idk, you tell me, man. Tell me whether we're living in a sinful and broken world as the consequence of ever pining sin, or in the utopia of God's kingdom free of sin and its consequences. Ask yourself whether you believe sin's deadly consequences, and the answer to your question lies therein.

Brother, we as Christians in whatever stage of growth we are in, live in a sinful world among sinners.


That’s just the way it is until Christ returns.
 
No, I don't. You're complicating an otherwise simple and obvious matter.

I’m sharing on the subject of Limited Atonement. This is the topic of this thread.

Here is what Calvinist’s teach as to Limited Atonement -

Limited atonement" is a theological doctrine, primarily associated with Calvinism, which states that while Jesus' death on the cross was sufficient to atone for the sins of all people, it was only intended to effectively redeem those individuals who were pre-determined by God to be saved, meaning his sacrifice only applies to the "elect" and not everyone on earth; essentially, God's plan was to save only a specific group of people through Christ's death.

Key points about limited atonement:
  • "The elect":
    This refers to the chosen group of people who God has predetermined to be saved.

  • Distinction from sufficiency:
    While the atonement is considered sufficient for all people, its application is limited to the elect.
 
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