OSAS

[Blood Bought 1953]

Only those who are obedient are justified.

Chapter and verse please.....

Jesus said that the Sinful Publican in the Temple, That man who would not even lift his eyes up to Heaven to pray was “ JUSTIFIED”......What did he do? He was convicted of Sin by the Holy Spirit ( Nobody comes unless the Spirit Draw Him ) and Turned to God ( repentance) for Mercy— which God Promises to extend to “ Anybody that ASKS for it”......Not a single Word about “Obedience” in order to be Saved — that comes AFTER Salvation. The UNregenerated man has NO chance of being “ Obedient”, unless one is referring to the “ Obedience of the Gospel”. That would entail hearing the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4, Believing in that Gospel and Resting in it without ever adding anything that would call for Human Works or Merit .....
Resting in the Gospel spurs Love for God—- Nothing else does that.That Love spurs the TRUE Obedience that pleases God ...... “Any” Obedience is better than disobedience of course , but the Obedience that flows naturally from a New Heart That Loves God is what God ultimately wants to see....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Whether you are realizing it or not, your promoting what the Bible calls “the lie”

Quite an Accusation there........please elaborate ....thanks....

 

[JLB]

Chapter and verse please.....

This tells me you don’t bother reading my posts to you.

Again, for the fifth time —

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

• The “work” was Abraham’s action of obedience to God; to offer his son Issac on the altar.

This is called the obedience of faith, as is the principle found in salvation, justification and righteousness.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


We must obey the Gospel to be saved.

You will find that believe and obey are synonymous in the original.

“Believing“ without obeying is “incomplete” and will not accomplish being made right with God; justification.

The demons believe Jesus is Lord, and was raised from the dead, yet they still serve and obey Satan.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we acknowledge Him as Lord, and is the action of obedience to the Gospel command repent.



By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Here is that same instance from the book of Galatians about Abraham responding in obedience to the Gospel.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



Do you see the Gospel being preached in this incident from Genesis 12?


Should I explain further.

Galatians 3:8, Hebrews 11:8 and Genesis 12:1-4 are all the same event.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

if i may ask what end ?

When we meet the Lord. As Jesus described there will be those who say "Lord, Lord"
I remember quoting this inappropriately, in a way where I was ok but the opposition were definitely wrong.

Jesus's context is the sermon on the mount. Now as a teenager my family was riven by lack of respect, understanding, closeness and schizophrenia, which I had to witness and which grieved me deeply. I became convinced the house Jesus is speaking about is the building of our personalities, our likes and expression, how we interact and our value systems. Without a foundation in Jesus and His ways, when troubles come, the house collapses. I have seen this in many peoples lives. Often folk think this is just a religious view, but Jesus is talking to our hearts, to life and to death.

We are unbelievably fragile, and can let go things we value the most, and get so damaged we do not know anyway out. So some confuse their walk with grace and forgiveness, feel God has approved them without knowing the life Jesus preached and its rules. Now as I share this I am no way perfect or have achieved all I am called to, yet I know this reality and how I need to walk. And this walk is not to prove I am worthy before God, it is just life and the best way to live. It is like comparing stabbing yourself in the hand or looking after your body everyday. Why stab your hand if you know how to walk in love and life, and live life to the full.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

This is the key to understanding faith, and how the law or principle of faith operates to produce the intended divine result.





Only those who are obedient are justified.


This is obvious since no one is justified by disobedience.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?


It was Abraham’s obedient response to offer his son Issac on the altar.


Just like it was Abraham‘s obedient respsonse to the Gospel by which he was justified, by which he established the pattern of justification for the Gentiles, when he obeyed the Lord to get out of his country to a land....


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8


Whether you are realizing it or not, your promoting what the Bible calls “the lie”.


The lie is what Satan told Eve in the garden.



JLB

I realised something in our conversations that might have caused confusion.
Obedience to prove ones self worthy or obedience because this is ones heart and way of life and love of God.

The difference is emotional and about intent. The rich young man thought he had made it coming up to Jesus and saying look at me, what else do I need to do. He was obedient to prove himself worthy, but he had not gone the next step to loving and serving others. His obedience was for himself, as if this was Gods intention in calling His people.

Disobedience or rebellion is the emotional rejection of conformity or the value of life and blessing. It is based on anger, bitterness and wanting to get back at being rejected.

To bow the knee, call Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, to listen and follow Him in love and faith, it is impossible to hold onto disobedience and rebellion, because it is the opposite of putting Jesus into our hearts. But equally obedience for selfish ends is empty, because it sees reward not need, satisfaction, not sacrifice and loss, security and not risk or pain. If one loves, truly loves, you will sacrifice anything to help. It is why emotionally people speak of their own lack of faith and encounter with Jesus, just their own struggles and bondage that has not moved since they came to "faith" at some point in the past. I would question what this faith actually was, because victory, cleansing and transformation have not been a part of their walk, rather defeat, failure and disappointment. God bless you

 

[jerry63935]

there will be those who say "Lord, Lord"

matthew 7:22

Often folk think this is just a religious view, but Jesus is talking to our hearts, to life and to death.

yes and no i am anti religious %100 relationship . he is talking how we build our Christian walk . paul uses something of the same nature as a wise master builder. there are those who use gold silver precious stone . these things have come through the refiners fire . will stand the test of time. then we have wood hay stubble these things will perish in the fire .poof nothing but ashes a fleshly minded relationship /our christian life consist of works.. were not saved by works. but good works follow any thing done in the name of the Lord for His glory

 

[JLB]

matthew 7:22 yes and no i am anti religious %100 relationship . he is talking how we build our Christian walk . paul uses something of the same nature as a wise master builder. there are those who use gold silver precious stone . these things have come through the refiners fire . will stand the test of time. then we have wood hay stubble these things will perish in the fire .poof nothing but ashes a fleshly minded relationship /our christian life consist of works.. were not saved by works. but good works follow any thing done in the name of the Lord for His glory

Paul sums up his discourse you are referring to about building with silver, gold, and precious things...


If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

1 Corinthians 3:17

this is the works of the flesh wood hay stubble --wrong building material

 

[JLB]

this is the works of the flesh wood hay stubble --wrong building material

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17


We as individual “temples“ are being built into the holy corporate “temple” as a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

If an individual who is built with unacceptable materials
( teachings other than Christ ) and begins to defile the corporate temple, then God will destroy the one who is defiling the temple.


According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:10-11


JLB

 

[jerry63935]

If an individual who is built with unacceptable materials
( teachings other than Christ ) and begins to defile the corporate temple, then God will destroy the one who is defiling the temple.

and i am full aware of what it is talking about and i also am full aware of your driving point ...not my 1st rodeo

 

[JLB]

and i am full aware of what it is talking about and i also am full aware of your driving point ...not my 1st rodeo

This is a vague statement.

It does not address the truth that the scriptures teach.

Please address the scripture and what the scripture says.

TOS —

1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.




JLB

 

[jerry63935]

1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

there was self control there was no derogatory personal remarks . your point is lose of salvation ..i no longer discuss that issue

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

We must obey the Gospel to be saved.


The Gospel is NOT something to be “ Obeyed”.....It is something to be BELIEVED.....The Gospel Of Paul , given to him by Jesus is a Promise—Not a Commandment. It is a Promise That involves two facts , and how one reacts to those two facts , whether he Believes them or not , will determine a person’s Eternal Fate....
The two facts are these.....Jesus died for your Sins and He rose from the dead......If one Believes those two facts — Plus Nothing.....you will be Saved .If you choose to Add anything like “Yes, Believing the Gospel will Save, BUT to “ OBEY” it, we must now see it as a Call to Reform Ourselves! It means we must make up our minds to “ do better” ....we must behave in a more perfect way.....we must abandon any old, nasty habits and learn new ones!
Nope.The Gospel is none of those things, no matter how good they sound. In and of themselves, they “ are” good things, but a person could do all of those things and without Believing the Two Facts Of The Gospel, He would still be Lost.....
Jesus completed everything required for our Salvation....HE did ALL the Work for us.....all that is left for us to do is to Believe it and Believe it enough to REST in it......There is our “ Commandment” if you were looking for one......Heb 4 proclaims that if we do not REST in the Finished Work Of The Cross, represented by Paul’s Gospel ( look it up ) we are guilty of “ disobedience and UNbelief”......God makes it clear that to “ disobey the Gospel” is to Add to it ( your reward for that is to “ Fall From Grace” ) or not Trust in it enough to REST in it ( your reward for that is to be considered a disobedient UNbeliever )......
The Message Of The Bible is NOT to ask anybody to try to live “ The Christ-Life” on their own....Jesus did not come to Earth to tell men how to live so that they could save themselves . Jesus came here to die.To die for our sins and then to rise again for our Justification .....He did those things that only HE could. What “ we” are to do now is to TRUST that what He did was enough.....REST in Paul’s Gospel , presented to him by Jesus...

 

[JLB]

there was self control there was no derogatory personal remarks . your point is lose of salvation ..i no longer discuss that issue

My point which I highlighted in the paste from the TOS is

Address the issue, not the person.

We are discussing what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 3, which culminates with God destroying those who defile His dwelling place; His temple.


I don’t use the term “lose your salvation” since it’s not in the scriptures.


We can indeed be removed from Christ, and should take heed that we remain in Him.


If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17


Do you at least agree that God will destroy those who defile His temple, His people, His dwelling place.


having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:20-22


in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,


The teachings on man, wood, hay, stubble will cause people not to grow in holiness, so that on the Day of Judgement they will be rejected.

People that obey the truth in which they seek to walk with the Lord in righteousness and holiness will receive eternal on that Day we are gathered before Him to give an account.


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:10-11


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

JLB

 

[jerry63935]

We can indeed be removed from Christ, and should take heed that we remain in Him.


If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17

that is your doctrine the issue is this i will put put it straight forward .

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
the above scripture is dealing with works ..there are fleshly minded Christians

The teachings on man, wood, hay, stubble will cause people not to grow in holiness, so that on the Day of Judgement they will be rejected.

not necessarily ours works is being tried by the fire in 12-15 the judgment is the bema seat seat judgment
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 2 types judgement seats Bema seat judgment of works --this is for the saved... the white throne judgment is for the Lost ..it is a do not pass go do not collect $200.00 . this is the point of no return no 2nd chances ..math 7:22 not everyone who says LOrd Lord

The teachings on man, wood, hay, stubble will cause people not to grow in holiness, so that on the Day of Judgement they will be rejected.

(works rejected burned up in the fire ) the gold silver precious stones survived the fire and are purified
this is my last post on this subject with you. were not going to see eye to eye . it turns into a type my doctrine supersedes your doctrine. . we done hashed this out one other time.

 

[jerry63935]

, wood, hay, stubble will cause people not to grow in holiness,

that part i agree with holiness is sanctification w/o no man shall see God we have 3 steps in our sanctification the new birth set a side we been made righteous/ Holy through justification . then we are to grown in the grace and knowledge which never ends .then our last step when God calls us out of this world and we go Home. we are fully complete in our Holiness. there are those who simply have a fire insurance policy. but never progress much at all in growth .

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Someone who starts as a Christian but does not end as one, ultimately was never saved, simple because they did not continue to the end.

--If this were the case, then why does the Bible warn the Christian about apostasy/backsliding and falling? Heb 6:6 how can they "have fallen" if they were never saved but always fallen?

--What sense could be made of the proverb "the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire"?

--"Ye are severed from Christ,..." Gal 5:4, how can one be severed from what he was "never really" a part of? And how can one "fall from grace" if he was "never really" in grace to begin with?

In another thread I asked the question if one quit smoking does his quitting prove he never really smoked?

=======================

Your position is that all "true" Christians endure unto the end. If he does not endure he was 'never really saved'.

In a tract called "Do A Christian's Sin Damn His Soul" by Baptist preacher Sam Morris (who also believed in OSAS) says:

“We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the or-dinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may per-form will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger... The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... The way I live has nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of my soul".

Another Baptist preacher, Bill Foster in "The Weekly Worker) 3/12/59 says:

"If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" .

Mr Charles Stanley in his book "Eternal Security" (chp 10. p 93) says:
“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy”
"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful" (p94)


According to Mr. Morris, Mr. Foster and Mr Stanley a Christian can turn to live in sin as murderer, idolator, adulterer, debauchery, can even LOSE HIS FAITH and yet still be saved!!!

What about a Christian who turns to live in idolatry, adultery, who LOSES HIS FAITH and dies that way, is this a Christian who "endured unto the end"? If so, in what sense can it be said he 'endured'?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't remember if I have ever posted this on this forum before, but it is a contradiction I have noticed over the years between osas "proof verses":

http://www.versebyverseministry.org/...still_be_saved


While doing a random search, I stumbled across the above link. The link says: (in blue) (my emp)

"Having said that, our actions as Christians do have consequences, both here and in eternity in heaven. As the examples above attest, God requires that we discipline those in the church who continue in a life of sin. Matthew 18:15-20 gives clear instructions as to how sinning believers are to be handled. Ultimately, if they refuse to stop sinning, we are to put them out of the church. This is for the destruction of their flesh, not that they would lose their salvation (see 1 Cor. 5:1-5), with the ultimate goal of restoring them to fellowship (as Jesus did with Peter). Sadly, this is rarely done in today’s church.

The Lord makes clear that He will discipline those He loves. Therefore, if we continue in sin, we can expect to be put out of fellowship with the church, as well as God’s chastisement. Hebrews 12:4-7 makes this clear...

We also face consequences in heaven in eternity for what we do here on earth as believers. Again, our salvation is not in question, but the level of rewards we will receive in heaven depend on how we serve God while on earth. This is made most clear in 1 Corinthians 3:9-17"


According to the author of this link, the Christian that continues to sin cannot be lost, his "salvation is not in question" and "not that they would lose salvation" but that Christian would simply lose rewards or receive a lower level of rewards in heaven and cites 1 Cor 3:9-17 as "proof text".

Another site says: (in blue) (my emp)

http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/...-my-salvation/

Other passages often mentioned touch on the issue of a true believer losing his eternal rewards in heaven through unfaithfulness as a Christian. First Corinthians 3:15 speaks of “escaping through the flames” (not a reference to hell but to the blazing gaze of Jesus) and 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 speaks of Paul’s buffeting of his own body lest he should become “disqualified"-that is, should he be removed from his ministry and lose God’s blessing through sin. Second John 8 & 1 John 2:28 also refer to the same possibility. Again, none of these warnings deal with losing your eternal salvation, but rather with the real possibility of losing your eternal rewards in heaven.

A Christian can become unfaithful or become a reprobate as Paul said about himself yet he would just lose rewards not salvation.

Yet other sites as this one below say: (in blue) (my emp)

http://www.spurgeonheritage.org/pers...of-the-saints/

Those who “fall away” by apostasy were never saved to begin with. Had they been true Christians, they would have persevered and been preserved (1 John 2:19). This Fifth Point of Calvinism, then, teaches both the preservation and perseverance of the saints by the sovereign grace and power of God.

This site says the Christian who falls away was "never saved to begin with" and cites 1 Jn 2:19 as 'proof text'.

Question to those that hold to the man-made doctrine of OSAS-Eternal Security-Perseverance of the Saints:

If one who is a professed Christian for many years but later turns to live in sin, as adultery, then:

1) his "salvation is not in question" but he will just "lose eternal rewards in heaven" and still be saved since salvation cannot be possibly lost per 1 Cor 3:9-17?
or
2) he was "never really saved to begin" with per 1 Jn 2:19?


(Please answer (1) or (2) since both cannot be true at the same time. Thank you)

 

[jerry63935]

Bill Foster in "The Weekly Worker) 3/12/59 says:

"If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" .

Mr Charles Stanley in his book "Eternal Security" (chp 10. p 93) says:
“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy”
"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful" (p94)


According to Mr. Morris, Mr. Foster and Mr Stanley a Christian can turn to live in sin as murderer, idolator, adulterer, debauchery, can even LOSE HIS FAITH and yet still be saved!!!

i respect charles stanley the other guy i have no clue who he is.. me personally i lean towards eternal security "not a osas or eternal security teacher " ..but the above statements as far as i am concerned is WRONG will we sin yes do we have a advocate yes .is our salvation kept by the power of God . does this give us the license to do as we please ? NO a person doing the above AND CLAIMING SALVATION was never saved .... eternal security is about trusting HIM not ourselves nor is it a reason to sin.. that's like being a law enforcement officer and breaking the law saying because i am the law its ok

 

[jerry63935]

According to the author of this link, the Christian that continues to sin cannot be lost, his "salvation is not in question" and "not that they would lose salvation" but that Christian would simply lose rewards or receive a lower level of rewards in heaven and cites 1 Cor 3:9-17 as "proof text".

there are those who teach a work based salvation and those who say speaking in tongues shows your saved . ignore the fleshly teachings focus on your walk