OSAS

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good point, but I doubt if the Saved Thief haggled too much about which Covenant he was Saved under......lol
There could be more NT Gospel in this story than meets the eye...... The New Covenant is based on the Death, Burial and Resurrection Of Jesus and our Faith in those Facts.The Thief knew that Jesus was going to die on that Cross , Yet he said to Jesus, “ Remember me when you come into Your Kingdom”......This was proof that the thief believed Jesus would be brought back from the Dead......He had Faith in the Resurrection Of Jesus Christ— that is a NT Faith That will go a long way in getting you Saved......Combine That Belief with the Belief that “ Jesus was Lord” and one has fulfilled Romans 10:9—-New Testament, for sure...Technically, before the death of the Testator, But Jesus seemed to let it slide....if it worked for Jesus, who cares about technicalities ? The Faith Of The Thief was immense— everybody that was ever saved , no matter what the Spiritual Economy was, no matter what Age it was, Be it the Age Of Law or the Age of Grace was Saved by that Grace, working through Faith......

Again, Heb 9:16-17 it would be impossible for the thief to be an example of NT gospel salvation.

NT salvation requires one to believe God "hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead (Rom 10:9) something the thief could not do since Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected. The NT also requires a baptism into the death of Christ (Rom 6:2-7) before one can be freed from sin and walk in newness of life. Again, not something the thief could do for Christ had not died and the NT gospel was not therefore yet in effect.

The thief's knowledge of God/Christ was probably better than some of Christ's own disciples. He knew God existed, God was to be feared, the Christ was an innocent man, that the cross would not be the end of Christ, that Christ would have a kingdom and saw a need to be in that kingdom. The thief's knowledge of this could be because he had been water baptized (Mk 1:4-5; Lk 3:21) with John's baptism but later fell into a life of crime and was now repentant of his sins to Christ.

Usually the thief is used as 'proof text' water baptism is not essential to being saved for, as the argument goes, the thief was saved without being water baptized. That is an unprovable assumption for he may very well have been of those of Mark 1:4 that was water baptized hence the knowledge he had of Christ. And having already been water baptized would not need to be re-baptized but simply repent of his sins.

Since the thief lived under the OT law he would not be accountable to Christ's NT great commission therefore not accountable to being obedient to Acts 2:38 as we today who live after it are accountable to it.

When Jesus was "on earth" He had the power/authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving (Matt 9:6) as this thief. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago, He left behind His NT as His authority on earth and that NT requires belief, repentance, confession and baptism. If any today desire to be saved as the thief, then they need a time machine to go back some 2000 years to when Christ was on earth and the OT still in effect, commit a crime and find themselves hanging next to Christ on a cross and repent asking for forgiveness.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The never was saved as a scary concept. It basically means until we meet our maker we don't know if we're saved or not. Who knows, one day we might lose our faith as many before us have also. Many of them also regained their faith and came back to God, but not everyone.

My hope is in God. Because I've seen my own weaknesses, I know I could be torn from God if the wrong situation and the wrong mindset paired together in one of Satan's schemes. So we have to hope that God's grip is stronger than our fickle and weak nature. That He will not let go.

That said, who's to say who is saved and who isn't. Work out you salvation with fear and trembling I think is one bible verse. While another says to have confidance in God's saving grace and His salvation.

Hope in God, because that's the only hope to rely on.

I must ask you, who in Scripture got saved and then lost their salvation and went to hell?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I must ask you, who in Scripture got saved and then lost their salvation and went to hell?

Judas who betrayed Jesus comes to mind. As far as anyone could tell he was one of the chosen 12 disciples among all of the other disciples. They were among those sent out to spread the good news that the Kingdom of Heaven is near, and could cast out demons and heal people. Yet in the end Jesus warned the 12 Apostles that one of them was going to betray Him, and was headed for destruction.

God knew from the beginning that this is what was going to happen. Jesus Probabley knew from the first time he met Judas. But as far as anyone else who can say who is saved and who isn't. Even if you walk with Jesus as Judas did, you could walk awayvabd be lost.

Is that not a concern for the whole lose your salvation kind of thing.

Peter on the other hand, denied Jesus three times. Out of fear or otherwise he denied his faith, yet afterword he came back. Many other testimonies I've heard are from people who resemble the official prodigal son who left and was lost, but finally returned. They resemble a story like Peter.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Judas who betrayed Jesus comes to mind. As far as anyone could tell he was one of the chosen 12 disciples among all of the other disciples. They were among those sent out to spread the good news that the Kingdom of Heaven is near, and could cast out demons and heal people. Yet in the end Jesus warned the 12 Apostles that one of them was going to betray Him, and was headed for destruction.

God knew from the beginning that this is what was going to happen. Jesus Probabley knew from the first time he met Judas. But as far as anyone else who can say who is saved and who isn't. Even if you walk with Jesus as Judas did, you could walk awayvabd be lost.

Is that not a concern for the whole lose your salvation kind of thing.

Peter on the other hand, denied Jesus three times. Out of fear or otherwise he denied his faith, yet afterword he came back. Many other testimonies I've heard are from people who resemble the official prodigal son who left and was lost, but finally returned. They resemble a story like Peter.

So many will say as I say that Judas was never saved.
There is a lot to back that up.
But aside from that, there is no mention of anyone losing their salvation.
Why do you think that is?
They all had plenty of opportunity to do so.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

So many will say as I say that Judas was never saved.
There is a lot to back that up.
But aside from that, there is no mention of anyone losing their salvation.
Why do you think that is?
They all had plenty of opportunity to do so.

God knows the end fton before the beginning. So as far as His plans go we are all either saved or unsaved regardless if and when we find that out for ourselves. But as far as any of us can tell, who can say who is saved and won't stray away, verses who was never saved, but looked like they were.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

God knows the end fton before the beginning. So as far as His plans go we are all either saved or unsaved regardless if and when we find that out for ourselves. But as far as any of us can tell, who can say who is saved and won't stray away, verses who was never saved, but looked like they were.

I can say that.
I will never stray from God.
The Holy Spirit would never let me.

 

[JLB]

NT salvation requires one to believe God "hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead (Rom 10:9) something the thief could not do since Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected.

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42-43


The thief was literally dying next to Jesus on his own cross.

• Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.

Knowing Jesus was going to die any moment, he acknowledged that Jesus would be raised from the dead and come into His kingdom, while confessing Him as Lord.


Perfectly satisfying the requirement for salvation that Paul taught us.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42-43


The thief was literally dying next to Jesus on his own cross.

• Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.

Knowing Jesus was going to die any moment, he acknowledged that Jesus would be raised from the dead and come into His kingdom, while confessing Him as Lord.


Perfectly satisfying the requirement for salvation that Paul taught us.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9



JLB

Both were alive and under the NT when the thief was promised paradise.

Wills/testaments many times go through a period of probation and do not take effect immediately at the point of death.

Luke's account of Christ's great commission in Lk 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." The teachings of Christ NT and the great commission would not begin until Pentecost (Acts 2) which was several weeks. months after Christ died.

The thief and all others who lived BEFORE Acts 2:38 were not accountable to it as we who live after it are.

Again, from Rom 10:9 requires one to believe God "hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead. Something the thief could not do since Christ had not died, had not been resurrected. Nor could the thief be baptized into the death of Christ to be freed from sin and walk in newness of life (Rom 6) since Christ had not died.

Heb 9:16-17 kills the 'thief argument'. There no complete total forgiveness of sins until Christ first died.

"Since Christ is the heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2), people may inherit, therefore, only if Christ died; but he did die.

The terms of any will become binding only upon the death of the person making it; and they do not limit or impede in any way the free use of the testator's property BEFORE his death. This sublime fact is precisely the reason why no person may claim forgiveness of his sins through a mere act of faith, as did a certain woman (Luke 7:50), or like the thief on the cross, for example. The testator had not then died; and the conditions under which it was prescribed how all people might inherit were not announced as yet. The value of this in understanding the preconditions of salvation is past all calculation. If people would inherit through Christ, who is the heir of all things, let them discover what his plenary representatives, the apostles of Christ, announced after his death as the binding terms of the testament, and obey them, meet those conditions; nor should they rely upon isolated and individual instances of Christ's redemptive favor in which, prior to his death, salvation was conferred upon persons such as the thief on the cross and the certain woman already mentioned."
Coffman Comm (my emp)

Again, it was not until AFTER Christ died that the NT and its condition (belief, repentance, confess and water baptism for remission of sins in the name of the Lord) came into effect. Those living before the NT could obey its conditions when those had not yet even been given.

 

[JLB]

Again, it was not until AFTER Christ died that the NT and its condition (belief, repentance, confess and water baptism for remission of sins in the name of the Lord) came into effect. Those living before the NT could obey its conditions when those had not yet even been given.

How did the OT saints go to paradise - Abraham’s Bosom?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How did the OT saints go to paradise - Abraham’s Bosom?

The OT law had different laws (circumcision, sacrifices, purifications, etc) to be obeyed that are different from NT law. Those OT characters that were obedient to God would be the only ones whose sins were remitted by the blood of Christ when He died...His blood flowed backward to wash away the sins of those faithful obedient people under the OT law. The NT requires things that are different from the OT law to be save. The NT required belief repentance confession and water baptism for remission of sin in the name of the Lord. All these requirements had not been given at the time of the thief and did not come into effect until Pentecost (Acts 2) weeks- months later.

 

[JLB]

The OT law had different laws (circumcision, sacrifices, purifications, etc) to be obeyed that are different from NT law. Those OT characters that were obedient to God would be the only ones whose sins were remitted by the blood of Christ when He died...His blood flowed backward to wash away the sins of those faithful obedient people under the OT law. The NT requires things that are different from the OT law to be save. The NT required belief repentance confession and water baptism for remission of sin in the name of the Lord. All these requirements had not been given at the time of the thief and did not come into effect until Pentecost (Acts 2) weeks- months later.

How about Abraham? How did he go to paradise?


JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How about Abraham? How did he go to paradise?


JLB

Yes, He would be saved for he obeyed Hebrews 11:8,17 by leaving his land home kindred and offering Isaac. We today obey by belief repentance confession and baptism.

 

[JLB]

Yes, He would be saved for he obeyed Hebrews 11:8,17 by leaving his land home kindred and offering Isaac. We today obey by belief repentance confession and baptism.

So we’re not saved by grace through faith?



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So we’re not saved by grace through faith?



JLB

Abraham was saved by his obedient faith (Heb 11:8,17).

Abraham was not perfect in his obedience and therefore was still in need of grace.

Faith and grace.

 

[JLB]

Abraham was saved by his obedient faith (Heb 11:8,17).

Abraham was not perfect in his obedience and therefore was still in need of grace.

Faith and grace.

Yes grace is the Spirit, the Spirit of grace that enables us, and empowers us to do what we can not do, without it; without Him.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


Abraham walked before him in His presence, in His Spirit, the way we are called to, today.


Abraham walked in covenant relationship with the same Lord, that we do today.

Abraham had the Spirit of Christ in him, being a prophet,the same way we do today, because he obeyed the Gospel.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9


JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes grace is the Spirit, the Spirit of grace that enables us, and empowers us to do what we can not do, without it; without Him.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


Abraham walked before him in His presence, in His Spirit, the way we are called to, today.


Abraham walked in covenant relationship with the same Lord, that we do today.

Abraham had the Spirit of Christ in him, being a prophet,the same way we do today, because he obeyed the Gospel.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9


JLB

Sin separates man from God and grace bridges that gap. Obedience is required to receive grace and grace is required for man's obedience will not be perfect. Man does not have to first be "empowered" by God/Spirit before man is able to obey. Such an idea has God choosing 'winners and losers'. If I am lost, it would be due to God's failure to 'empower' me as to where I could obey.
The gospel with the shed blood of Christ did not yet exist therefore not in effect at the time of Abraham. "In the all nations shall be blesses" was the "good news" preached to Abraham. (Gal 3:8)

 

[JLB]

Man does not have to first be "empowered" by God/Spirit before man is able to obey

Man is able to obey by the Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Man is able to obey by the Spirit.

Man is able to choose to obey or not. He does not need to have an ability miraculously given to him to enable him to obey.

 

[JLB]

Man is able to choose to obey or not. He does not need to have an ability miraculously given to him to enable him to obey.

You sure about that?

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:22-23


again



Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3




JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You sure about that?

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:22-23


again



Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3




JLB

Man is able to obey, that is man's part in salvation. Salvation is not God alone deciding for man. God's role in salvation has already been done in sending Christ to die for man. Man's role is obeying the Son Heb 5:9.

In the verse you cited it says "see you have purified your souls" shows man has a role in his own salvation. Like in Acts 2 Peter says the similar thing in telling them to "save yourselves". Peter again showing man's role in obedience to God.

IF man has no role in his own salvation (in choosing to obey Christ) and God/Holy Spirit alone determines man's eternal fate then those lost are due to Holy Spirit's failure in enabling.

1 Cor 12:3 the Holy Spirit is author of the word that teaches man about the Lord. So no man apart from the word can say Jesus is Lord separate from information supplied by the Spirit's word. If it were not for God's word, men would not know the mind/things of God, (1 Cor 2:11) would not even know about the Holy Spirit at all.