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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

Four variations:

nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”​

Choose carefully, but I'm pretty sure Jesus said exactly what He wanted to say, even if it's not what you/they want to hear. What I find ironic is how the futurist won't be satisfied until he can ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’.
 
KJV Greek Strong's LIT Translation
Luke 17:21
neither/nor ~oude to utter, speak, say ~ereo
behold/see/lo ~idou here/hither/in this place ~hode
either/or/than ~e behold/see/lo ~idou
there/in or to that place ~ekei for(gar-in the Beginning) ~gar
behold/see/lo ~idou kingdom, + reign ~basileia
Elohiym/God ~theos to be ~esti
within ~entos of yours ~humon

Byzantinnt Greek Strong's LIT Translation
Luke 17:21

neither/nor~oude to utter, speak, say~ereo 5692
behold, perceive, see, take heed~horao 5640
here/hither/in this place~hode either/or/than~e behold, perceive, see, take heed~horao 5640
there/in or to that place~ekei behold, perceive, see, take heed~horao 5640
for(gar-in the Beginning)
~gar the/that~ho kingdom, + reign~basileia
the/that~ho Elohiym/God~theos
within~entos you~su
to be/to exist/to happen
~eimi 5719
 
I dunno. To me the combination of pronouns doesn't matter; the spirit of the teaching is the same. The kingdom of Heaven works on an individual basis. None of us can claim to be a part of it based on what church we go to or who we know or who we fellowship with.

In the OT one could claim to be part of the "children of God" just by being born into the correct household. Not anymore and thank God for that.
 
Four variations:

nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”​

Choose carefully, but I'm pretty sure Jesus said exactly what He wanted to say, even if it's not what you/they want to hear. What I find ironic is how the futurist won't be satisfied until he can ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’.

I dunno. To me the combination of pronouns doesn't matter; the spirit of the teaching is the same. The kingdom of Heaven works on an individual basis. None of us can claim to be a part of it based on what church we go to or who we know or who we fellowship with.

In the OT one could claim to be part of the "children of God" just by being born into the correct household. Not anymore and thank God for that.
 
Many? Stormcrow and a woman...Leigh something.. is 2


I won't call out names, but you know who those are that are still here and believe and teach tenets of Preterism.


JLB
 
Four variations:

nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”​

Choose carefully, but I'm pretty sure Jesus said exactly what He wanted to say, even if it's not what you/they want to hear. What I find ironic is how the futurist won't be satisfied until he can ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’.

First of all, you will need to post the scripture reference for each of those translations.

Secondly, I am the one saying the kingdom is indeed within us, though we can not see it, we see the influence of it in our lives.


Jesus said it this way - The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8


Can you see the wind, Sinthesis?

The Day will come when we will see the One whom our heart longs for, and we will see our loved ones whom we miss, and are "asleep".

On that day we will all be together with Him and them, which is why we don't sorrow as those who have no hope.

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

What we are eagerly waiting for with perseverance... is in the future, otherwise we wouldn't be waiting for something we already have.

Preterism says this has already happened, which is why Paul so plainly said this doctrine is a cancer in the body of Christ.

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18


That's why Preterism was determined to be Heresy on this site.

Of course if you want to continue teaching the tenets of Preterism, then that's between you and the Lord.


JLB
 
Well since Gd gave me a vision in 1986, and told me in the vision, where I was running with 2 small kids from an evil something or something, and as I hid behind a bush, God or His Angel spoke very loudly to me, saying, "The Man of Sin is Here" so since God revealed to me that the Anti-Christ was in the world, I figured He had a reason for telling me this. God did say in the last days young men will see dreams and old men will see visions. I saw a vision of Jimmy Swaggert a few months later, he was in a huge auditorium, preaching to maybe 10 people, withing a week or two, he fell from Grace.

So, this is something God really laid on my heart to seek the truth of.

God bless......I did the ultra hot shower......Steam it up. LOL.
These were personal revelations, not prophecies of God, that were given to you personally for instruction to be alert of the wiles of Satan as even now there are many antichrist in the world. 1John 2:18,19. The son of perdition will be the worst though as he will cause a great falling away then ever seen before, 2Thessalonians 2:3-12.
 
"They" is the context of whom the kingdom of God is within.
That actually makes less sense than if Jesus was telling the Pharisees the kingdom of God was within them. Grammar would be the issue there.
 
I beg to differ,the Day of the Lord,is the Lords Day....

Sooooo let's get technical.the start of the millennium is the Lords Day,and technically you can call it the Sabbath,meaning rest ,that Day will be 1000 years,as were the previous days of the week,1000 years each...Six days has man been on this earth,the 7th is coming,which is the Day John was at,again,not some day of the week....

If it was as you say,John would have ,I was in the spirit on the sabbath.....

Look at the below verse

Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

The things seen,did they happen that Saturday?
The things which shall be,did they happen on the rest of the week,beginning Monday?


What you and most suggest ,ie,John being on a Sunday don't make sense,and it's not right,biblically speaking

Mark 16:9; Acts 2:42; 20:7; 1Corinthians 16:1,2 all refer to the Lord's day being Saturday Sabbath and has nothing to do with the day of the Lord that is God's end of days wrath. Sabbath was never on a Sunday, but man changed it to Sunday, which is another topic that I ca not get into as it would violate the ToS. John is told to write down the past, present and future things that he has seen, things that he sees present and things he will see that are future. I've already explain a couple different times to you that the day of the Lord and the Lord's day are two different things.
 
That actually makes less sense than if Jesus was telling the Pharisees the kingdom of God was within them. Grammar would be the issue there.

I believe these words do in fact pertain to those who (will) have the Spirit of Christ within them.

...For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21

If you don't then, then so be it.


JLB
 
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Does Jesus rule today? Is He king? does He have a Kingdom?
Yes, yes and yes.

The kingdoms of this world will become the fulfillment of what already is the kingdoms of the Lord when the third woe begins with the seventh trumpet sounding that fulfills all prophecy from Rev 11:15-21 as it is Christ who sits at the right hand of God that rules over the nations as He opens the seven seals and sends out the seven angels with the seven trumpets and then the angels that pour out the seven vial judgements.

Jesus has always ruled over the nations as He sits at the right hand of God until all has been fulfilled, Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14: Psalms 2:1-6; 110:1,2; Luke 1:32,33; Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15; John 18:37
 
Yes, yes and yes.

The kingdoms of this world will become the fulfillment of what already is the kingdoms of the Lord when the third woe begins with the seventh trumpet sounding that fulfills all prophecy from Rev 11:15-21 as it is Christ who sits at the right hand of God that rules over the nations as He opens the seven seals and sends out the seven angels with the seven trumpets and then the angels that pour out the seven vial judgements.

Jesus has always ruled over the nations as He sits at the right hand of God until all has been fulfilled, Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14: Psalms 2:1-6; 110:1,2; Luke 1:32,33; Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15; John 18:37


Yes, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof.

To me this speaks of the earth itself, as being different from the world; ie world system governed by evil men, whose master and lord is Satan.

Because the scripture also says...

The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men. Psalm 115:16

When every single person on earth has Jesus Christ as their Lord, then will the saying be fulfilled that says...
that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things...


17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:17-20

The part where Christ suffers for us that we may be reconciled to God, has been fulfilled.

The part where the restoration of all things occurs, when Jesus is sent by God again, at the time of the restoration of all things... has yet to be fulfilled.


This restoration of all things is something we all can look forward to.


JLB
 
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Hello Brother, I will probably be at the Heart Doctor tomorrow all day, so I will go ahead and reply, and you can jump in anytime, we brothers in Christ should always be able to confer with one another.

I think there are three stages to the First Resurrection, I probably did not explain it very well, so I will just paste my resource material, so as not to confuse my brothers as to what I think, and so I can get to bed. SMILE..... I hope this is easier to understand. The Dead in Christ rise First. Then the Rapture happens, that is a Mystery, not all will die, but some will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Then there will be a resurrection of those killed during the Tribulation. Those who arise in Christ, do it at death. I will show this with scriptures.

The Two Resurrections


When our Lord Jesus was here upon earth, He taught that all men who die will be raised again at some future date. “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth . . .” (John 5:28, 29). We affirm and avow our belief in the resurrection of the human body from death and the grave. Without this hope our Christian faith is vain, our brightest hopes are merely bursting bubbles, the Bible is not a true and reliable record, the men who wrote it were poor deluded victims of falsehood, and Jesus Christ is the world’s biggest impostor. But so clear is the Bible on the subject of the resurrection that we admit no confusion or doubt.

A Wrong Conception
Many people, among them some Christians, have been taught to believe that there is only one “general” resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world. This is a serious error which has robbed many believers of joy and victory in this life. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we taught that the bodies of all men will be raised at the same time. It is true that all the dead will be raised and brought into judgment, but neither the time, the place, nor the judgments are the same. The Bible clearly distinguishes between a first and a second resurrection.

. . . All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).

When men are raised, not all will be raised at the same time nor in the same condition. There will be two resurrections for two classes of men. One will be raised to eternal life and immortality, while the other will be raised to condemnation and banishment from the presence of the Lord. There is a “resurrection of life” and a “resurrection of damnation.”

And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just (Luke14:14).

There is, then, a “resurrection of the just,” and since “all shall come forth,” there must of necessity be a resurrection of the unjust. Since the dead in Christ shall rise first, the implication is that the dead out of Christ (or without Christ) will be raised afterwards. Luke makes no mention in the above passage about a resurrection of the unsaved. Indeed the unsaved shall be raised, but not for a considerable length of time after the saved have been raised. When Paul testified before Felix, he said, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust” (Acts 24:15). The Apostle John makes a clear distinction between the two. He speaks of the redeemed who “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:4-5).

Every believer has passed out of death into life (John 5:24). His life “is hid with Christ in God” (Colossians 3:3), and the exceeding greatness of God’s power in resurrection toward us who believe is the same “mighty power which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead” (Ephesians 1:19-20). And by that same power will all the unbelieving dead be brought out of their graves to stand before the judgment of the Great White Throne.

The First Resurrection
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Surely language could be no clearer than this--“The dead in Christ shall rise first.” We see first that the time of the First Resurrection is the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of Heaven to rapture all of the saints to Himself. Here we must distinguish between Christ’s coming for His own before the millennium and His coming again to raise the rest of the dead (unbelievers) who remained in their graves during the thousand years. Let there be no misunderstanding that it is a settled fact that there is at least a one thousand year interval between the First and the Second Resurrection. The Apostle John, by Divine inspiration, confirms this,

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5).

At the consummation of the First Resurrection there are three companies of believers who will have been raised at different times. Let us say, for clarity, there are three stages of the resurrection of believers:

(1) When our Lord was crucified on the Cross, we read: “And, behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose” (Matthew 27:51-52).

(2) There is the second stage of the First Resurrection to which we already have made mention (1 Thessalonians 4:16), when all true believers are raised at the first appearance of Christ. To this we add the Apostle Paul’s word in First Corinthians: “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52).

(3) The third and final stage of the First Resurrection occurs about seven years after the resurrection of saints at Christ’s second coming . “Those resurrected near the close of the seven years’ period of the tribulation are the multitude of believers who were led to the truth through the witness of the 144,000.” Because they would not receive the mark of the beast in their hands and foreheads, they were martyred. These are brought forth from the dead at the end of the Tribulation just before Christ comes to earth to reign for one thousand years.

Glory to God, Amen. I hope this helps you understand my thinking brother. I think way to many times we as Christians try to see things in restrained ways, when the answer is in he scriptures, I truly believe the scriptures show that the Damned will be judged after Christs 1000 year reign. Jesus will even use his Perfect Reign as evidence against how they lived.
The Doctrine of Christ, Amen. I have been teaching the same doctrine. You won't find many here who believe the Doctrine Christ revealed to His body. There is a lot of opposition because of the many different denominations that post. I my self am non denominational. Studied from Moody Bible Institute and the Christian Jew Foundation, but learned from the Lord through experience in trusting and leaning on Him.
In Christ
Douglas Summers
 
Rondmon said:


(2) There is the second stage of the First Resurrection to which we already have made mention (1 Thessalonians 4:16), when all true believers are raised at the first appearance of Christ. To this we add the Apostle Paul’s word in First Corinthians: “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52).

(3) The third and final stage of the First Resurrection occurs about seven years after the resurrection of saints at Christ’s second coming . “Those resurrected near the close of the seven years’ period of the tribulation are the multitude of believers who were led to the truth through the witness of the 144,000.” Because they would not receive the mark of the beast in their hands and foreheads, they were martyred. These are brought forth from the dead at the end of the Tribulation just before Christ comes to earth to reign for one thousand years.

I was in agreement with you until this part, about a second and third stage and two "appearances" of Christ.

No such scripture as two "more" appearances of Christ, as there are two total.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

The parousia, "coming" of the Lord is when all those who are His will be resurrected from the dead.

His coming is after the tribulation.

The resurrection and rapture are one event that takes place at His coming.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4;15-17


This is describing the coming of the Lord.

The only and final coming of the Lord, which is called the Day of the Lord or the Day of christ.

The rapture of those who are alive and remain is at the coming of the Lord, just a moment after the resurrection of all the dead in Christ.

This event at the coming of the Lord is known as the gathering, because he gathers all His people together, both those who are alive and remain, as well as the dead in Christ.


This is what Christ taught.
This is what the Apostles taught.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Caught up together with then refers to all of Christ's people; Both the living and the dead in Christ.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


JLB
 
Secondly, I am the one saying the kingdom is indeed within us, though we can not see it, we see the influence of it in our lives.

So you admit the kingdom is here, and now, influencing our lives. Do you influence the lives of those others around you?
 
So you admit the kingdom is here, and now, influencing our lives. Do you influence the lives of those others around you?


Yes the kingdom of God is present in those whom is the Spirit of Christ.

Yes I influence the lives of those around me.

When He returns from heaven, where He is seated at the right hand of God, He will restore all things, and remove all those who are wicked, in which the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of God.

Do you believe Jesus is the King of Afghanistan, and Governs that nation, whereby everyone obeys the law of Christ in Afghanistan?
Does everyone in Saudi Arabia worship Jesus Christ, and confess Him as their Lord and King?



JLB
 
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